Vertical welding help

[d_rock]

So I'm having some issues with vertical. Basically fillet welds on 3/8 plate. Now here's the thing. I can crank my welder up to around 450-500 ipm when i'm vertical welding plate on the bench (nice and clean), but when I try to run high settings when I actually do my verts (flat bed bodies on trucks) I have to crank my welder WAY down. The only settings I can get it to weld at are 17.4 volts at 260ipm. The metal on the trucks is not as clean as when I'm bench welding since I have to burn off undercoating and then try and jam a wire wheel up there and get it as clean as I can. Seems when I start cranking up my welder on trucks the weld will either be extremely concave, or i'll have a terribly unstable puddle thats dripping all over the place. When I weld at 260ipm runs great, the welds look good, not cold, but I feel like 260ipm is just way to cold for 3/8plate.

 

[sberry]

A wire feed needs to be turned down some for vert up, if it looks and works good it probably is. I will see if I can find some up pics.

 

[d_rock]

i'm doing vert down.

 

[kamesama980]

i'm doing vert down.

there's yer problem. Try going up instead.

Going down the puddle tends to drip (depleting where you welded, giving the concavity) and you end up welding to the puddle instead of the base material (no penetration).

granted I'm not an expert but my welding classes have always said it's possible to weld up but don't unless you know what you're doing with the right materials and a darn good reason. Experimentation has tended to agree with their assessment. Your experience backs it up too.

 

[Herb]

Beware the grapes of wrath!

 

[Kracin]

there's yer problem. Try going up instead.

Going down the puddle tends to drip (depleting where you welded, giving the concavity) and you end up welding to the puddle instead of the base material (no penetration).

granted I'm not an expert but my welding classes have always said it's possible to weld up but don't unless you know what you're doing with the right materials and a darn good reason. Experimentation has tended to agree with their assessment. Your experience backs it up too.

with a wire feed it doesn't make a difference in you go up or down, as long as you get good penetration and the weld is good.

i can go down and up with the same settings depending on how i work the gun with a mig.


but it's different with SMA, if you stick weld and you don't want your weld to be porous and junk, then you need to weld vertical up only.




the best thing to be said for any kind of welding, is get the basics, then practice practice practice. like i told one of the apprentice at work, just because i've welded for a while and i can show someone else how to get started, doesn't mean i won't need to run a few welds before i work on a project to get back in my rhythm so my welds don't look like ****.

 

[kazlx]

On 3/8 you typically don't want to weld vert down. The penetration isn't as good. You can use it on thinner metals to limit the heat and keep from blowing holes. Try vert up and walking the puddle a little.

http://www.millerwelds.com/resources/articles/index.php?page=articles8.html

"Vertical Positions

Vertical welding, both up and down, can be difficult. This makes pre-weld set-up very important for making high quality welds. Since you are fighting gravity, consider reducing the voltage and amperage 10 to 15 percent from the settings for the same weld in the flat position.

Know when to weld vertical down and when to weld vertical up. For vertical down welding, the welder begins at the top of a joint and welds down. This technique helps when welding thin metals because the arc penetrates less due to the faster travel speed. Because vertical down welding helps avoid excessive melt-through, welders sometimes place very thin materials in the vertical position even if they can weld them in the flat position.

When welding vertical down, angle the gun slightly back into the weld puddle at a 5 to 15 degree angle. For thin metal where burn-through is a concern, angle the gun slightly up and pull it downward (i.e., direct the wire away from the weld puddle). Either way, keep the electrode wire on the leading edge of the weld puddle. A very slight weave may help flatten the weld crown.

The vertical up technique - beginning at the bottom of a joint and welding up - can provide better penetration on thicker materials (typically 1/4 in. or more). The travel angle of the gun is a 5 to 15 degree drop from the perpendicular position. A slight weaving motion can help control the size, shape and cooling effects of the weld puddle.

Making a plug weld in the vertical position is somewhat similar to making a vertical up fillet weld. For a vertical plug weld, the filler metal is deposited upward along one side of the hole. Then, another bead is deposited from the bottom to the top on the other side of the hole. Alternate sides until the hole is filled. For thin metal, use a similar technique, but weld in the vertical down position to prevent burn-through."

 

[chazza]

Tips for welding;
1.Vertical-down = high amps/voltage; rod angled down 5 degrees below horizontal, or more; fast speed. Good for welding sheet metal, or making a cosmetic past over a vertical-up weld. Does not penetrate very deeply!
2. Vertical-up = low voltage/amps so that it will just hold an arc comfortably; rod 5 degrees below horizontal; two passes needed with a MMAW and probably the same with a MIG; very strong weld excellent penetration.
First pass - straight up no weaving, if using MMAW, ignore the dribbly mess the slag makes; chip slag inspect for an even bead of metal. Lumpy bits means you went a bit too slow or that the amperage is too high.
Second pass - Same amps and rod position; a weave needs to be done, there are two methods I have used the fir-tree and the U-shape. This is really only explainable with a diagram; however; with the U-weave the arc is established and drawn across the work the edge of the weld area, at the same time call the timing to yourself 2,3 at the end of the 2,3 bit weld upwards for about the diameter of the electrode calling the time 1; then come back down to to where the 2,3 bit is and go across 2,3; up 1 and repeat the sequence. Going up 1 allows the 2,3 weld to cool enough to support the next run of 2,3 next to it going the other way.

The fir-tree involves the horizontal pass 2,3 but instead of going up on the 1, the electrode is taken diagonally up to the centre of the the first pass and then diagonally down to where you started the 2,3 bit; and then the process is repeated. When drawn on a bit of paper the overlapping triangles look a bit like a fir-tree hence the name.

I haven't done a vertical-up MIG weld, but I see no reason why this shouldn't work.

D_rock you will need to use vertical up if you are welding structural bodies,

Cheers Charlie

 

[d_rock]

I actually started working on vertical up today. started out rough with some nice caterpillars but after about 30 minutes I was running nice beads, I think I was at 21 volts and 300ipm. Of course, this was on the bench, but i'll be giving it a shot tomorrow on a truck.

 

[Heavy Metal Doctor]

Let me start by saying I am FAR from a pro welder. A 6 week course in high school was as far as I go for formal training. I do, however, do a far bit of practical work that I get paid for (needs to right and last).

Body mount -similar to the OP's situation - with spacer plates - vertical/ horizontal / plug welds 3/8 and 1/2 plate - most vertical is run downwards



I almost never change the settings on my welder - set to higher power and around 45 / 50 on the wire speed dial (I forget what that translates into for IPM)

For starters, I clean the area - nearly always - I might skip cleaning a little light surface rust on steel that has been sitting around the shop or else new factory parts that come with "weld through" primer. Paint, undercoating and all that will screw you up pretty good when it's trying to "cook off". I strip all the crud back enough for a good bead. Then I just work the gun angle to keep the bead going good. All the way around. I don't adjust the welder for different angles / positions, I adjust me.

 

[d_rock]

I'm throwing down a good bead, don't get me wrong. I just feel like I should have the welder much higher for 3/8. I've never had a weld fail, and I'm sure there "strong enough" but I don't want "strong enough" I want them to be as strong as I can possible make them. I just don't get why I can crank up the welder on the bench doing 3/8 but when it comes the the truck I can't. I'm sure it's either the fact that I can't get it as clean, or that i'm crouched under a flat bed trying to run the bead. Anyway, worked on my vertical up today and got some good looking beads that I know are penetrating after some practice so I wrote down my settings and will give it a shot in the morning when I set the bed i'm working on.

 

[mattdwelder]

First thing is your confusing wire speed with heat . Your voltage is your heat. I use a general setting of 19 volts and 250 ipm wire speed ( 035 wire, 75/25 gas) you can weld up, down, overhead with this setting. When welding down hill you have to watch out for cold lap especially on dirty metal. To combat cold lap run your wire speed a little lower or your voltage a little higher.

 

[chazza]

I want them to be as strong as I can possible make them.
I'm sure it's either the fact that I can't get it as clean, or that i'm crouched under a flat bed trying to run the bead. /QUOTE]

With MIG especially, all of the parent metal must be bright and shiny, but really this applies to all welding.

Do a vertical-up ****-weld on two pieces of scrap of the same thickness as your project. When they have air-cooled, bend them along the join though 180 degrees; you may need a press to do this. Inspect the weld closely for cracking - you pass if there is no sign of failure,

Cheers Charlie

 

[d_rock]

First thing is your confusing wire speed with heat . Your voltage is your heat. I use a general setting of 19 volts and 250 ipm wire speed ( 035 wire, 75/25 gas) you can weld up, down, overhead with this setting. When welding down hill you have to watch out for cold lap especially on dirty metal. To combat cold lap run your wire speed a little lower or your voltage a little higher.

actually wire speed dictates amps, which dictates penetration. with .035 wire it takes 1.6 inches of wire for 1 amp. Volts adjust your arc, for the most part, although it does affect penetration some also. At least, that is what I understand.

 

[d_rock]

So after practicing my vertical up I tried it out on a truck today. Cleaned the metal with my carbide burr so I know it was clean. Still had the same kind of problem, I can do the weld on the bench great, but not on the truck!

 

[kkroger]

Vertical UP

Vertical UP Video

Verticals should be UP on anything over about a quarter inch.

Jody lays it out above...

Maybe also posting pics of WHAT you are welding and pics of your results could be better to help.

 

[crewchief888]

So after practicing my vertical up I tried it out on a truck today. Cleaned the metal with my carbide burr so I know it was clean. Still had the same kind of problem, I can do the weld on the bench great, but not on the truck!

i wonder if you arent getting a good consistant ground....
or
i've had it happen to me running solid wire/gas, seems like when i'd get into corners or tight spots, my arc would go all to hell.
my thought was the shielding gas was getting "blown around" and not directed at the puddle.

i may be way off base here

edit: i run my verticals down with a fairly quick circular motion, gun at an upward angle

 

[kkroger]

i wonder if you arent getting a good consistant ground....
or
i've had it happen to me running solid wire/gas, seems like when i'd get into corners or tight spots, my arc would go all to hell.
my thought was the shielding gas was getting "blown around" and not directed at the puddle.

i may be way off base here

edit: i run my verticals down with a fairly quick circular motion, gun at an upward angle

an inverted "V" pattern with a slight pause on each side before going to the apex. Or a Triangle start at the Base from right to left go right to left then UP to the apex of the joint then back down to cross the base slightly up... the Triangle will build a lot more material. Watch your stickout, I did some sample welds but the camera is acting up right now. If you let your stickout get too long you start getting outside of your gas shield, If you are working too far over your head you start running at a less then optimal angle and your stickout gets too long and you get out of your shield and the arc goes to hell.
I burned some 3/8 Hot Rolled verticals at various heights yesterday... just to see what happened...

 

[d_rock]

Vertical UP

Vertical UP Video

Verticals should be UP on anything over about a quarter inch.

Jody lays it out above...

Maybe also posting pics of WHAT you are welding and pics of your results could be better to help.

Good videos there. The thing is, I can do vertical up on the bench with the same exact plates we use for the flatbeds. I ground my clamp to the bolt I use to attach them to the frame of the truck. I use the same "christmas tree" technique for vert up but It just doesn't weld like it does on the bench. Its frustrating! I've never had anything come back, and i've had to extend frames for dump beds so lots force is applied to my welds, and so far so good. I know my welds are good now, but I want them to be as good as I can possibly make them and I just can't crank my welder up on the truck like I can when doing something on the bench.

I'll try and get some pics up so you guys can see what it is exactly i'm welding

 

[DesertSparky57]

I'm far far far away from being pro.

You said good on the bench but bad on the truck. Is this in the same shop? Or bench in the shop, truck in the field somewhere??

I only ask because I happen to be a pro sparky rather than a welder, and thought that maybe you were running the welder on the bench from shop power and in the field from a generator. Possible power issue?

If this is not the case, disregard my babble

 

[d_rock]

I'm far far far away from being pro.

You said good on the bench but bad on the truck. Is this in the same shop? Or bench in the shop, truck in the field somewhere??

I only ask because I happen to be a pro sparky rather than a welder, and thought that maybe you were running the welder on the bench from shop power and in the field from a generator. Possible power issue?

If this is not the case, disregard my babble

Same shop, same welder.

 

[MarkG]

I agree with a couple previous posters---double-check the following: 1. Good ground 2. Feed settings (start with what the door says if in doubt) 3. Do it vert. up if at all possible for best strength/penetration. 4. Clean, clean, clean 5. Polarity----this is easy to forget if you happen to switch between flux-core and bare wire MIG and will drive you nuts if you forget to switch it!! 6. Is the fit-up good?

If you're doing all that right, all that's left is how you're manipulating the torch and how fast and the torch angles. Since you're going uphill, a slight point uphill is good.

 

[kamesama980]

with a wire feed it doesn't make a difference in you go up or down, as long as you get good penetration and the weld is good.

i can go down and up with the same settings depending on how i work the gun with a mig.

but it's different with SMA, if you stick weld and you don't want your weld to be porous and junk, then you need to weld vertical up only.

the best thing to be said for any kind of welding, is get the basics, then practice practice practice. like i told one of the apprentice at work, just because i've welded for a while and i can show someone else how to get started, doesn't mean i won't need to run a few welds before i work on a project to get back in my rhythm so my welds don't look like ****.

That could be what I was thinking of. Said class was a several years ago and covered both arc and mig.