TopTul > ??? Why No Proof?

[Hip2u77]

(This was an email I was going to send to Mike, but decided to post it here instead.)


Mike,


I keep reading about Toptul, but I've yet to see anything, besides a few testimonials, that prove they're anything more than marketing hype.

I'm really not sure of the best way to test, but I say if these tools are really equal to the big names then why not spend a bit of time and show us a video proving they are?

Maybe you could take one of the 1/4" 72 tooth ratchets and stick it in a vise with a 1/2" socket on it. Then stick a grade 8 bolt between a Craftsman, Snap-On, Mac, Harbor Freight Pro, etc., socket & ratchet combo, and let'er rip. Tighten until something breaks. Do a few runs and make sure to keep the video rolling. I guess you could do the same with the wrenches.


If they're really equal to the big names then it should be pretty obvious and the proof would make your sales skyrocket. As the exclusive dealer I would think a few You Tube videos like that could seal the deal for you. You'd be set for life.

Hip2u77


(And Mike, I seriously am interested in the results as I want to move all my Craftsman sockets back to their blow molded cases and create a full, matching collection from scratch. I've also been looking at the Craftsman 299 piece kit, but if you can prove Toptul are better then I'll order the equal from you instead.)

 

[Merkava_4]

Dang....you're putting the guy on the spot.

 

[eschoendorff]

Whoa... how did this become Mike's problem???? This would have been more appropriate to send to him privately through email - if at all.

Just because you're a tool geek doesn't excuse you from demonstrating any tact.

 

[Hip2u77]

Whoa... how did this become Mike's problem???? This would have been more appropriate to send to him privately through email - if at all.

Just because you're a tool geek doesn't excuse you from demonstrating any tact.

First off, I'm in no way a tool geek. What I am is someone that doesn't like to throw money away.

Why did I address it to Mike of Wren Hand Tools? Because he's the seller and sole US distributor. As such I figure if he's going to come on a tool forum and say the tools he's selling are equal to the truck brands then I was trying to throw out an idea of how he could prove it. No idea if it would work.

If I came off harsh then I apologize. Tact has never been my strong suit.

 

[nissan_crawler]

Maybe you could take one of the 1/4" 72 tooth ratchets and stick it in a vise with a 1/2" socket on it. Then stick a grade 8 bolt between a Craftsman, Snap-On, Mac, Harbor Freight Pro, etc., socket & ratchet combo, and let'er rip. Tighten until something breaks.

Only a complete ***** would do that in "real life" in the first place. If it's that tight, get a 3/8" and quit being a tard.

 

[Hip2u77]

Only a complete ***** would do that in "real life" in the first place. If it's that tight, get a 3/8" and quit being a tard.

Huh??

Seriously, is this really that hard for people to understand? The whole point of using the 1/4" is to see which one breaks first.

 

[nissan_crawler]

Huh??

Seriously, is this really that hard for people to understand? The whole point of using the 1/4" is to see which one breaks first.

Which is completely pointless seeing that nobody should ever put a 1/4" ratchet under that kind of stress. Is it really that hard for people to understand?

 

[Vinko]

Which is completely pointless seeing that nobody should ever put a 1/4" ratchet under that kind of stress. Is it really that hard for people to understand?

It would be interesting, though, to see the results.

I don't see the problem with this guy putting the TopTul guy on the spot, really.
Maybe his idea is not the best way to demonstrate the quality of a tool. But he's asking for backup on some claims (maybe TopTul has already provided that, I don't know). I think it's a fair request. I think it's equally fair if the guy ignores it.

 

[chammyman]

I can see the logic behind the question and indeed the reasoning behind it.

If he got a ratchet to take more than a snap on ratchet then 90% of people would say I'm buying toptul, so he would have indeed a customer base for life.

However the sensible 9% would say no 2 ratchets are the same, just because one took 15klbft (damn impressive 1/4 to take that lol) means in no way the next one would take even half of that.

The cynical 1% would say its photoshopped, cgi'd, or had been tampered with.

Its not really a valid test, as per nissan crawler you would go up to the next size.

A better test may be show them taking the SAE/ISO or whatever torque rating they need to make to be so rated in all sizes, then if he has the time or inclination bump the torque up to destruction.

Lets be honest if it fails behind snap on but ahead of, I dunno, mac or something then its a good advert. A tool almost as good but for less than half the price with warrenty? I would buy it.

 

[daveblank]

I'm really not sure of the best way to test, but I say if these tools are really equal to the big names then why not spend a bit of time and show us a video proving they are?

If you're going to request something make it an independent lab test. IMHO videos are a good sales tool for the person making it. They will find the competetors waek points & exploit them. They will show their own strengths.

 

[Hip2u77]

Which is completely pointless seeing that nobody should ever put a 1/4" ratchet under that kind of stress. Is it really that hard for people to understand?

You obviously still don't get it.

This is not a thread about using the right tool for the job. It's about proving A company's products are of a higher quality then B company.

You HAVE to take something to the point of failure to know what that limit is.

If you have the equipment to measure at what torque a socket / ratchet fails then by all means offer it up for use.

I don't, so I'm just trying to figure out an easy way to test two products head to head.

For that matter. . . how exactly does Snap-on know how much torque their ratchets can handle if they've never been tested to failure?

 

[Hip2u77]

I can see the logic behind the question and indeed the reasoning behind it.

If he got a ratchet to take more than a snap on ratchet then 90% of people would say I'm buying toptul, so he would have indeed a customer base for life.

However the sensible 9% would say no 2 ratchets are the same, just because one took 15klbft (damn impressive 1/4 to take that lol) means in no way the next one would take even half of that.

The cynical 1% would say its photoshopped, cgi'd, or had been tampered with.

Its not really a valid test, as per nissan crawler you would go up to the next size.

A better test may be show them taking the SAE/ISO or whatever torque rating they need to make to be so rated in all sizes, then if he has the time or inclination bump the torque up to destruction.

Lets be honest if it fails behind snap on but ahead of, I dunno, mac or something then its a good advert. A tool almost as good but for less than half the price with warrenty? I would buy it.

Thank you for helping me try to explain what I'm asking. I figure if a pattern shows up quick then we have the answer, if not then we'll have to move on to a different test.

 

[nissan_crawler]

The point is, that's like saying if you launch a Chevy at a concrete wall at 300 mph, it compresses 13 inches versus the ford compressing 14 inches. Honestly, who cares? It's never going to happen in the real world. Does the test data mean jack? No.

Nobody on here has broken one of the Toptul ratchets. That means they work as they were designed to do.

Testing would be almost impossible, you would need numerous ratchets of each kind, you couldn't do it by hand, you would need some sort of mechanical (most likely hydraulic) rig to test them that would ramp up the pressure via a timer, so each test was the exact same, etc. All that so he can sell a few more $15 ratchets? The price is on par with JUNK tools, and of good quality. If you like them, buy them, if not, don't worry about it.

 

[wilbilt]

You obviously still don't get it.

This is not a thread about using the right tool for the job. It's about proving A company's products are of a higher quality then B company.

You HAVE to take something to the point of failure to know what that limit is.

...
For that matter. . . how exactly does Snap-on know how much torque their ratchets can handle if they've never been tested to failure?

There were some photos posted in this forum a while ago showing failure test results between Snap-On and Toptul combination wrenches.

Use the "Search" function and find them if you want to see them.

 

[Stuey]

I don't think that the OP's request is unreasonable, but I also fail to see why the burden of testing should fall on Mike.

Another way of promoting this line of tools would be to distribute a common wrench size or 3/8" ratchet to 2 or 3 select forum members and request objective reviews from them, but such a tactic is not without faults of its own.

 

[ni[x]it]

from another thread

dfndr, if you gave me a list of what you get.............I bet I would come in at 1/3 less or so. Maybe more. My brand is new, so you would want to order something small and inexpensive to start to see about quality.

Craftsman/Sears has a no fuss warranty and stores significantly convenient to the majority.
While you don't even have an address. (Which I did find by digging)

So, what happened with KMS Financial Services? Or is it Wren Financial Management? Or Wren Investment Management? What about Northwest Investment Advisors?

You've also only been in business since May of 2008.

Also, on this forum, you tend to thread jack, which you've done again here.

No offense, it just sounds a bit sketchy/risky. Even for 1/3 off.

I dug much much deeper and found a bunch of other interesting things. The guy is young, and an opportunist. You can't fault him for that. But I wouldnt part with my cash.
Again folks, stick with name brands that have a history, and you'll likely never run in to problems.

 

[Stuey]

nixit,

To be honest, I wouldn't send any business Mike's way yet, but that's due to a lack of want of his product offering. However, I think that it's unfair for you to sabotage his efforts on this forum.

Several forum members have done business with him, with a satisfactory outcome.

 

[wrenchr]

Mike is the dealer not toptul!!
I sell tools on the side and I'm not going to intentionally break them.
That is like asking a snap on dealer to break their stuff.
Is is up to toptul to provide the proof not Mike.

 

[paramudduck]

Actually unless the number tested was rather large, the whole test would be invalid.

I have personally had name brand tools from all of the top manufacters fail in the first weeks of use. Yet I have other tools from the same companies that are 30 plus years old. It's all in the averages any maker expects some failures.

Read some of reversegears comments in the gearwrench threads. They can help you understand the huge varibles in an such testing.

 

[john w]

mike is easy to deal with and a straight-shooter. if you want his address, ask him for it like i did the other day, before i sent him a check for my second tool order. as for mike's business background, the impression that i get when he's on his office phone is that he's one busy man, be he 28 or 68. i'm going to be putting my new 1/2 dr. ratchet to the test next friday and will post comments.

 

[paramudduck]

Quote: "Again folks, stick with name brands that have a history, and you'll likely never run in to problems."

Let's see Snap on if no dealer: A total pain to get any support.

Bonney, Herbrand, Indestro all gone.

Mac, Proto, Blackhawk, and a few others now part of the Stanley borg.

Williams seems to be being turned into a import line by Snap on.

Easco, Allen, KD, and I don't now who else are part of the Danaher borg.

All the other USA quality tool companies that have been bought out by conglomerates and are now marketing cheap junk at high prices due to lingering brand recognition.

So what historical base do you have for your claims?

 

[CatfishXpress]

First off, the I don't care if the Toptul ratchets break before the Snap-On. If it breaks I'm confident Mike will replace it. Like most folks on here I have other ratchets I can use until the new one comes in. If for some reason I couldn't get it replaced, I would still be out only a small fraction of the cost of the snappy.

Secondly, I'm not a professional so the Snap-on truck doesn't stop at my house, but the UPS man does.

Third, many on here have found out if you don't regularly buy from the Snap-on man the warranty is hit or miss. Mike will warranty Toptul PERIOD, it doesn't matter if you bought it from him or from the old less than reputable dealer.

Last but not least, its not fair to hold Mike's past business failures against him. Who has not made mistakes?

 

[ZRX61]

Which is completely pointless seeing that nobody should ever put a 1/4" ratchet under that kind of stress. Is it really that hard for people to understand?

I concur. Stupid test..

 

[CatfishXpress]

I think some people need a reminder, Mike's first post on this site was an offer to fix problems created by the former US distributor.

I am the new importer/distributor of TOPTUL here in the US.
The website is www.wrenhandtools.com
If you provide me a list of the wanted itmes that you are still missing, I will include the needed items in my next order from the factory and I should be able to get the missing items to you about the middle of July if I do not have the item currently in inventory. I will do this at no charge to you as well if the list is true and not too long. Even though I have no idea who you dealt with in the past I will try to correct your situation of you are still unhappy.
Sincerely,
Mike Wren 509-993-4678

 

[Stuey]

I think some people need a reminder, Mike's first post on this site was an offer to fix problems created by the former US distributor.

In hindsight, that just showed us that Mike knows how to do business in a tactful manner.

 

[ImportTuner]

from another thread



Craftsman/Sears has a no fuss warranty and stores significantly convenient to the majority.
While you don't even have an address. (Which I did find by digging)

So, what happened with KMS Financial Services? Or is it Wren Financial Management? Or Wren Investment Management? What about Northwest Investment Advisors?

You've also only been in business since May of 2008.

Also, on this forum, you tend to thread jack, which you've done again here.

No offense, it just sounds a bit sketchy/risky. Even for 1/3 off.

I dug much much deeper and found a bunch of other interesting things. The guy is young, and an opportunist. You can't fault him for that. But I wouldnt part with my cash.
Again folks, stick with name brands that have a history, and you'll likely never run in to problems.

Why are you picking on Mike? He goes out of the way to provide a discount to GJ members, supply tools at a reasonable cost, stand behind his product, and help in any way and you are picking on him. I'm sure the profit is quite small considering what you are paying for the tools. Ease up ..

 

[MAD]

[ The guy is young, and an opportunist. [/b]

The term "opportunist" often implies that a person will exploit a situation without principal in order to gain without regard for the harm caused to others. If this is the context that you intended, you should provide a little more specific information.

 

[kartracer55]

Im half tempted to pick up a set of torque extensions and those plastic sleeved wheel sockets from him, item # GDAI0801 . I cant seem to find any of these things that are made here in the USA anyway so if the price is inline I might as well give them a shot.

Anybody try them?

 

[ni[x]it]

Why are you picking on Mike? He goes out of the way to provide a discount to GJ members, supply tools at a reasonable cost, stand behind his product, and help in any way and you are picking on him. I'm sure the profit is quite small considering what you are paying for the tools. Ease up ..

Not picking on anyone. I've seen a lot of internet scams come and go.

My first thought was, who is this guy? If he's legit, he'd have an address, phone and email to contact him by incase I had a problem with his product. Two out of three isn't bad.

Since no address was found for him, I went a digging to see where he does business from... hense discovering lots of small companies he has setup at the same address(s).

Knowledge is the key to a well informed purchase, right?

The term "opportunist" often implies that a person will exploit a situation without principal in order to gain without regard for the harm caused to others. If this is the context that you intended, you should provide a little more specific information.

Not hardly. I'm implying that he's trying to make a go of running another business.

 

[oldtools]

Go to Toptul website (Toptul.com), then select "TOPTUL Feature" and then select "Super Torque". Toptul provided test data of their tools. Now go to SO, MAC, Matco, etc and see if you can find test data. If not, contact them to see if they will provide you test data. Mike does not have the resources to do an accurate and complete test of all these tools.

 

[wrenhandtools]

1. ni(x)T whoever the heck you are.....I am so glad you know how to use your keyboard to access the internet...good for you...your mom would be proud. And don't forget, you're the one who called me out for action and you don't know HOW ready and WILLING I am for any action called upon me.
2. Let me just put your feebile brain at ease by telling you exactly my history
I have 2 businesses and one radio show going at the same time in my career. How many you got going?? what? ,,,,,I don't think I heard you.
My investment business is called Wren Investment Mangement and I clear my business through a Broker/Dearler called KMS Financial out of Seattle, WA. All stock brokers need a broker dealer to clear their trades through, it is a well known fact to all, except those of you who maybe have never invested before and maybe have learned all they know about investing from the movie "Trading Places". Oh and don't let me forget that I host my own weekly radio show on the topic of investing that very soon will be broadcast in many markets on the West Coast. ANd yes, this year I got my Washington Business License for Wren Hand Tools. Anything else you would like to know genius???? Oh the NOrthwest Investment Advisor remark is a little further back in my past where I was Pres and 50% of a local Broker Dealer that I have my partners buy me out so I didn't have to supervise (babysit) other people anymore. Maybe people like you????
And lets see before that...oh yeah....I worked my way up from the mailroom where I started in 1990.....so that probably ends the thought of you saying that I grew up in a wealthy family.......(I did not ...darn it) And out of high school I was an apprentice mechanic for a Porsche shop in Portland, OR and also was part of the pit crew on a GT2 class 914-6.
Finally, you said I "thread jack"....just like this thread??? Well this is my first post on this thread..3rd-4th page..so it would be hard for me to do that when I have not even posted until now.
ANd just for the record, I have never slapped a puppy or shot a person in the face with a pellet gun or hit a pedestrian with my car.
I am Mike Wren and I approved this message.

 

[wrenhandtools]

Now after I dealt with the first and most 'fun' person from this thread let me respond to the real meaning of this thread. As Chuck Yeager said, "I don't build em....I fly em".
To be frank, I have no idea how to test a wrench until it fails in an attempt to garner empirical data for sales purposes. If you need that much proof.....ahem.... before you even have one in your hand.....and the main manufacturer website doesn't do it for you.....then GEEZ don't buy Toptul and don't buy from me! You are not going to hurt my feelings or materially change my income in a year...so please do me a favor and buy something else from someone else.
If you are still curious do like the majority of humans in this world do and ....take a chance by purchasing something that you can use to see if you like it. Make it something where you don't obviously spend a lot of money and see FOR YOURSELF.
I am even going to help things along by announcing this Friday a 20% discount for a Journal members. But I gotta say, after a thread like this I thought maybe a I made a mistake to do so. Oh and also become a Sponsor...that too.
PLease fellas, it's just tools. I know quality tools from a trusted business are important. I am not out to change the world. ANd I have never said that anybody elses tools were bad.......just damn expensive. I just happen to think that the price for tools in a profession where the average pay goes from 30-45k have gotten way to high. That is all. Truly. And most of us would like to have a really nice set of mostly matching tools....and to do that at SNap-On, Mac, Matco, Hazet etc, is a VERY expensive proposition indeed.

 

[wrenhandtools]

One more thing, I am one of the very few to use my name and give my phone number at the end of every thread so I can be easily questioned...grilled....yelled at...whatever.

 

[wrenchr]

Hello Mike,
We are defending you so please do not let one or more boneheads ruin it for the rest of us.

 

[speed bump]

After looking at the pictures and standards for manufacturing quality Toptul has I would say they appear to build very high quality hand tools. I am ordering some this very afternoon for that reason.

Since this semester has been crazy I haven't gotten around to trying to break any wrenches but when I get my Dikes from Mike i'll throw them in the Rockwell hardness tester and ensure that they are in fact made of a good well tempered steel for you.

 

[48548]

I took apart 4 ratchets and posted pictures under top tool(hahaha I didn't spell it right on my posting), not to make mike look bad, but to prove that those ratchets were built stronger than my f747 snap on roto head, look at the pictures of the ratchets I took and see who you think is stronger, it would appear that the Genius and Top tul are designed the same, and the proto looked even better than the snap on as well. I am just saying, that if I could afford all snap on I would, but since I can't, I bought some tools from mike and took them apart to help people on here who wanted to see how they were made and I am going to buy more stuff from him. Look at the pictures I took and see for yourself whos quality is better!!!!!! Also with the money I saved by buying top tul instead of snap on, I was able to buy some used plomb ratchets and a beer!

 

[terabyte]

Wow such animosity...
I would urge the haters to pickup the phone and call Mike.

Those of us that have dealt with him have sung his praises for a reason. I am holding the tools I ordered in my hand right now as the brown truck just dropped them off at work and I can't stop playing with them.

The quality looks great, they feel great. I'm going to put them to use this weekend.

 

[stroh]

I know I don't have many postings on this board or have been on it very long,but after growing up in my dad's repair shop and being a journyman toolmaker for the past 15 years in my humble opinion toptul has very good quality at a very affordable price.

Mike is a good, honest man. And i WILL be doing more buisness very soon. Word of mouth is the best adversting there is. I'll take that over fancy advertising any day.

If anyone would rather buy Snap-on etc. go ahead and do it, whatever butters your bread.

Keep up the good work Mike

Scott

 

[peterbilr98]

i bought the wratcheting crimpers from mike with no problem talked on the phone with him very freindly.

 

[wrenhandtools]

Thanks for the support everyone. This IS fun for me and I enjoy boxing up orders for you all very much.