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3 or 4 wire to a sub

Rodhotz

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Asked this in another thread but got no response so here goes again. What was the reason they went to 4 wire? mine in both shops are 3 wire with 1 ground rod. Both are at least 100' away from the main meter and ran through the gray pvc pipe. I am thinking they were done about 5 years ago by the PO. also both are grounded to the rebar in the slab as well. no water or gas pipes in either shop.
 
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theoldwizard1

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A picture is worth a 1000 words. The sub panel is on the right.
 

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63spyder

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I'm curios too. Here in Oregon I had an inspector have me pull the ground wire and install ground rods at my panel In another building. Said I did not need the ground lead and I had to have ground rods. I personally don't see the need for both?
 

ddawg16

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Old Wizards drawing is correct.

Pull 4 wires....2 hots, neut and a ground. The ground can be a bare wire.

You do NOT bond the neut and ground together in the sub. This only applies if the sub-panel is in a detached building. If it's in the same building...then bonded together.

Yes...you need to ground rods...you can get by with one if you can prove that your ground is 25 ohms or less....but it's just faster, cheaper and easier to just drive 2 ground rods at least 6' apart....most guys to about 8' to be safe.

To option to ground rods is an Ufer ground....at least 20' of #4 copper buried in the ground...typically under your slab. My 2-story addition has both...ufer...(which is also tied to the the rebar), and 2 ground rods.

The reason you don't bond the ground to neutral in your sub is to prevent differential voltages in your neutral. The bond at your main panel helps to set the reference voltage for your neutral. If you bond them together at your sub...now you have set up a ground loop. If the sub is in the same building...your not running more ground rods...so it's not an issue.

edit...spyder...I think your inspector was wrong....
 

63spyder

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I hate to hear that as I pulled over 200 feet of ground wire (copper) ,and that was back when it was a lot cheaper. ( underground 2 inch conduit) . I would hate to try and pull that ground back in a conduit that is full. I still fail too see why you would need ground rods at each end and a line connecting the two ? They still all go too ground .? It seems redundant. If both panels are bonded what would be the problem.?
 

ddawg16

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spyder....Maybe I misunderstood your first post wrong....when you said 'pulled', I thought you meant he said to pull it out....

Do you mean he told you to pull in the ground? If so...he is right.

So...if you have 4 wires...2 Hots, neut and that ground wire....AND 2 ground rods at least 6' apart AND your ground bus is NOT tied to your neutral bus in your sub-panel....

Then....it's right.

Why the two ground rods at your sub-panel? Lighting protection....your too far from your main to depend on that ground wire. If that building takes a hit, you want the majority of the energy to be grounded there...not transmitted over to your house.
 

63spyder

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Sorry about that, he had me pull it out as he did not want it in there. Soo I have the original panel and two ground Rods ,two hundred feet away another panel (200 amp pulled from a 400 amp service) and two more ground rods. No ground wire tying the two together. Every thing works and I seem to have good grounds at both ends ,so I assume there most be a deeper mor technical reason why this set up is a problem. Just as the original poster asked why would I need the forth wire if grounded at both ends. ( thankfully lightning is not much of an issue here)
 

theoldwizard1

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Not tooooo many years ago (within my long lifetime), 3 wires to an out building were the norm and if your subpanel was installed back then, you are not required to upgrade (unless you are doing "major" improvements).

The "WHY ?" of 4 wire is beyond my capability to explain. It is in the NEC.

The ground wire can be smaller than the other conductors which is why 2-2-2-4 is a common feed cable.
 
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Rodhotz

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I am with spyder on this i don't get it. it has all the same grounding as the feeder panel so what would be the difference if one or the other got hit it would still follow the path to ground just not carry it to the other. same here lightning not a problem nor is rain!
 
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acer66

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To option to ground rods is an Ufer ground....at least 20' of #4 copper buried in the ground...typically under your slab. My 2-story addition has both...ufer...(which is also tied to the the rebar), and 2 ground rods.

please tell me that you do not need to use copper wire and that you also can use rebar as a ufer ground.
 
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Norcal

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Old Wizards drawing is correct.

Pull 4 wires....2 hots, neut and a ground. The ground can be a bare wire.

You do NOT bond the neut and ground together in the sub. This only applies if the sub-panel is in a detached building. If it's in the same building...then bonded together.
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The neutral & grounding conductor are only bonded together at the main service, after that they are seperate.
 

Keyrick

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The ground "Reference" at your service entrance location at one point of the property is not the same "Reference" at another point of the property, electrically speaking, with respect to the power company source. If you drive a ground rod and measure the voltage to that rod, it will be different than the voltage you read from a ground rod driven 200 feet from the first rod, as the soil resistance from the source, the POCO, is different for each rod.

Grounding schemas are put in place for a couple of reasons. One is lightning protection for your building AND power company infrastructure. Another reason for a grounding schema is for equipment protection. When you run a grounding conductor between your main panel and your sub panel you are placing those panel grounds at the same "Reference", with respect to the power source. This method provides for a common "Reference" for the power conductors at each panel.
 

gatchel

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Maybe it was mentioned but I didn't see it but another the reason for not bonding the neutral and ground at more than one location is that if the neutral were to fail and the system was bonded at both the main and the sub, current would flow on the ground...not good.
 

wyliesdiesels

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Man, I see the speculating goes wild when the sparkies arent around!

The common misconception folks have, including in this thread, is that ground rods and grounds/EGCs(equipment grounding conductors) serve the same purpose. I think its has to do with both having the same word- ground! I probably should copy this for future use as I've repeated it over and over again!

Ground rods are for grounding lightning strikes ONLY! On the other hand, grounds/EGCs are for safety and allow breakers the ability to clear ground faults, such as when the windings in a motor short to the frame. If the ground wire wasnt hooked up and bonded to the motor frame, then all metal touching the frame becomes energized which has the potential to shock someone! The same concept applies to subpanel feeders- the ground wire is needed to clear possible ground faults on the feeder!

In regards to 3-wire vs. 4-wire-

4-wire is now required for safety reasons. The difference between the 2 has to do with bonding in the subpanel. Say u only have a 3-wire feed and the neutral feeder develops a bad connection. Because the neutral is bonded to the panel enclosure, any metal in the building or between the buildings(if detached) can become energized, functioning as a parallel neutral return path. This can happen even between ground rods by capacitive coupling, though its rare. If the neutral in the sub is NOT bonded, as it ahouldnt be nowadays on new installs, then even if it develops a bad connection somewhere, theres no possiblilty of a parallel return path via metal between the buildings! The same reasons aply to the 3-wire vs 4-wire appliance debate!


So then if i had 2 drops from the power co, one to the house and another to the shop, how would that work as they are from the same feed lines? I understand the bonding part but this ground deal still has me scratching my head.

Most PoCos dont allow more than one drop to a given property. Second, PoCo drops dont have a ground wire, so this topic doesnt apply to service drops!
 
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Keyrick

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So then if i had 2 drops from the power co, one to the house and another to the shop, how would that work as they are from the same feed lines? I understand the bonding part but this ground deal still has me scratching my head.

You have no "Hot" without a "Reference". The feed from the POCO grounds the Neutral at the POCOs transformer. That provides a reference from the hot legs to the earth. You also ground the neutral at your service entrance to the earth. This provides a common reference at your panel for your hot legs. This is all about a reference to the earth, mainly for protection from lightning occurrences.

If you had two drops from the POCO, you would not need to connect (bond) the grounds of the two structures to each other, as the reference, to earth, would be different between each building, with respect to the hot legs. It is important to know that a earth ground reference at one point will not equal a earth ground reference at another point, even if it is only separated by 50 feet.

Does this help?.

Rick
 
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