Surf Shop floor - New Pad Questions

[spotco2]

Had a 30x30 pad poured 4" thick inside my new pole barn Thursday. It does have fiber in it but no wire mesh or rebar.

When they started, they pulled a string across the floor and put in wooden stakes (about 1x2) every 4 feet at the height of the string.

When they finished it was so wavy that you could surf on it. Actually there is about 1/2" difference or so between the high and low spots. It was supposed to be flat. My Snap-On creeper will not roll across it without bottoming out if that helps with perspective.

There are several places where the wooden stakes are visible on the surface and several where the gravel is very visible, along with really rough screed and trowel marks and swirls. They were supposed to put poly under it also but forgot to. They also did not finish all the way to the top of the grade boards in several places by about 1/4"-1/2".

This was a subcontractor that my GC used for the concrete. The GC was furious when he saw it and especially the fact that they did not put the poly under it since he took it to them that morning so they could use it. They also forgot to bring a wheel barrow and had to use mine.

He is having them come back and grind it down, but my questions are how far can they grind it since the gravel is already at the surface in places and what about the wooden stakes that are showing through the surface? They were just 1x4's that they busted up with a hammer and were not treated wood.

If they grind it flat I know the gravel will be at the top in a lot of places and more of the wooden stakes are going to pop up.

I had planned on just sealing the floor, but can I do that with gravel on top? Would an epoxy coat work to cover all of the mess and give me a vapor barrier?

What about using a leveling compound to fill in the low spots and using epoxy on top of that?

What are my options on this? Is it fixable or does it sound like a replacement slab is in order? I'm worried that it's not thick enough in places and combined with the pizz pore finish job that it will crack.

I can not get a lot of pics because all of the metal for the building is laying on top of it right now.

 

[zporta]

I would make them grind and polish it

 

[spotco2]

Here's a pic from when they started the pour showing the wooden sticks they used that are coming through the surface.

 

[zporta]

We only use #4 rebar for our stakes

 

[spotco2]

Here's a few more pics.

This shows the edge at the door opening, the crappy trowel work, wood poking through the surface and one of the many 1/2" low spots.

 

[spotco2]

We only use #4 rebar for our stakes

That only makes sense.

But what the heck can we do about this wood?

 

[zporta]

That's just bad man, I have done a better job bullfloating a slab then that.

I'm not sure how much grinding will help

 

[spotco2]

What about a leveling compound with epoxy over it?

 

[zporta]

Not sure about that, I would just hate to have a patch job on a brand new slab.

I would have a serious talk with your GC. They might have to cut their losses and start over. He has to know how terrible of a job that is

 

[PT Doc]

Wood coming through is not acceptable.

Have you paid the gc? I think that will make a difference when you ask to have this concrete torn out and reported. That is all I would accept unless you paid 1/3 of what the other estimates were.

 

[dcs Inc]

Nothing short of tearing it out and replacing it. Don't let them snow you on this.

 

[spotco2]

Wood coming through is not acceptable.

Have you paid the gc? I think that will make a difference when you ask to have this concrete torn out and reported. That is all I would accept unless you paid 1/3 of what the other estimates were.

The total cost of the building is $13k and the GC was paid half up front and other half is due upon completion. There's no way they are getting that second check until I'm happy. I just don't know concrete so I came here for a crash course.

I was just reading the IBC on concrete Section 1970 for Minimum Slab Provisions. It says that the minimum thickness is 3-1/2" and poly is required unless approved before pour.

Since we poured at 4" and have at least 1/2" low spots, that will put us dead nuts on 3-1/2" thickness unless there were any high spots in the gravel and if so, then we would be below minimum. Also the building inspector did not approve the grading for not using poly.

I am not going to be talking with the GC before Tuesday when they return. I plan on talking with the inspector on Monday to see if I can get him on my side to reject the slab. I don't think it will be difficult to sway him my way.

 

[SchnorrCS]

Yeah. I wouldn't pay for that.
Wooden stakes are supposed to be pulled as they work their way past them. Also, those aren't trowel marks. That's a screed board mark. You use a screed board to level it while wet, then trowel it.

Don't pay for that. That kind of shoddy work will just get worse. After seeing the side pic, it probably wasn't graded properly, and is gonna have cracking issues.

 

[akdiesel]

Nothing short of tearing it out and replacing it. Don't let them snow you on this.

Exactly.
This stuff is curing and will only get worse from the signs.

 

[dcs Inc]

I'm a third generation concrete contractor..... Chasing my father around cleaning tools 45 years ago.... yikes, anyway, this job got away from the installers and they did what they could do to save it. Now they are crossing their fingers in hope of getting paid.

Here are a few things to consider:

Often finishers will add water to the surface to get it closed up when the concrete gets ahead of them. This creates a very weak surface.

When concrete flashes, (sets up too quickly) It creates a lot of micro cracks due to it not having enough time to shrink properly. (Concrete shrinks when it dries) These are mostly found on the bottom of the slab and work their way to the surface.

The compressive strength is adversely affected during this time. If they added more water at the time of placement, that too lowers the compressive strength.

Often you will find that the concrete sat on the delivery truck for an extended time. (There is a batching ticket you can get your hands on from the concrete manufacture that will tell you time of mix, arrival, time of start of pour and time of finish pouring. This will be something you will need to have to bolster your case. The concrete supplier MUST give that info to you.)

A "hot load" is a load of concrete that has already started its chemical process of drying. It is temporally kept fluid by adding more water to it. Once it is removed from the concrete truck, it flashes and dries very quickly. It actually heats up physically. This makes for a very weak concrete.

Guys, I have only had one load of concrete I have replaced in 40 years and it was due to the truck driver stopping off to have lunch and then got into traffic delivering my load. I started pouring and seeing how it was acting I knew there was a problem. I put everybody into hyper gear to get it finished. After checking the dispatch ticket, I found a 3 hour delay in delivery. (Dispatch told me a different story) Long story short, Concrete company paid for replacement after cylinder tests came back way under the limits.

Get what you paid for, plain and simple. If the concrete installers have half a brain, they know this project is less than acceptable. $hit happens.

 

[bullnerd]

Damn! Thats frustrating isnt it! Looks like they had no idea what they where doing right from the start!

Good luck.

 

[SteveCh]

I'm with the group saying, tear out and do over. This will never be a decent floor.

I've done smaller jobs by myself [22 x 26', three of them here at home] with a little home mixer, a shovel, and a wheelbarrow, and they are much nicer than this, and they are level and they are holding up after 30 yr. just fine. A buddy of mine and his wife and I did the floor of his 40 x 70' steel barn the same way, though he rented a larger mixer. And we had three shovels. We did it in three sections, but it looks great, is level, as smooth as amateurs can get it with hand tools, which is actually pretty darned smooth.

This one needs bustin' out and redoing by someone who has a brain. I'm wondering whether the contractor hired some day-labor guys who didn't know how to do concrete work or something.

 

[KPSquared]

DO NOT PAY A DIME FOR THAT COMPLETE MESS OF A FLOOR!!!!

The ONLY solution is tear it out, start over. If your GC won't make that happen, fire everyone, and find new people and go after the GC for the first half. Don't pay a dime. That is total horse ****.

If they don't tear it out at their expense, they are a joke. I think your GC is a joke for even hiring a concrete crew like that in the first place.

I wish I could send you one of our local crews. I know they poured a basement floor near me that had some problems (I think beer and weed. . .) and when the owner of the finishing company showed up he didn't even hesitate. The boys were in there with jackhammers withint a couple hours. Worked past midnight tearing it out. The second floor was way past perfect. That is how a company is supposed to operate. . .

 

[dcs Inc]

Guys, If you haven't poured a lot of concrete.... stuff happens. Lets give these guys a chance to make it right. Sometimes things are out of the installers hands. I've seen concrete suppliers load on top of what was left from the previous load to cut costs or time. This puts that "new" load into an advanced stage of the drying process, giving you less time to place it. The stop off on the way to the delivery site for lunch or what ever and adding a little water to keep it at the slump you ordered it without logging it on the ticket is a real common practice. This is the start of a hot load that wont react until it hits the air. Lots of things that could have been the problem.
but........ The "extra" grade stakes is a BIG clue this crew either had a bunch of inexperienced help that didn't know how to use a screed line. I placed grade stakes much further apart. Once the grade was cast at the stake, the (steel stakes) were pulled.

Now if you had a vapor retarder down (at least a 10 mil poly) I would use a laser to set screed or even a laser screed if the project was big enough to set it up. No penetrations into the vapor retarder.

 

[spotco2]

I've been a contractor of sorts for a long time and worked along side a lot of different trades over the years. I know that a good GC will turn out a good finished product. This guy has done everything I have asked and I really have no complaints about him other than the fact that I have been catching stupid little things and having to point them out to him instead of him catching them first.

As far as the concrete crew goes, the head dude has been in business for over 20 years. One of his guys has been with him for 16 years and the other has been with him for 4 years. This is not their first rodeo, but it might be the first one that they had someone they could not pass off shoddy work on.

The total load for the job was just over 11 square. They delivered 9 on the first run about an hour after they were scheduled to be there. After it was dumped and spread out it sat for almost an hour before the truck came back with it's second load. The concrete yard is less than 3 miles away.

I know **** happens sometimes and this time it happened on my property. I honestly think this was more of a don't care problem than a don't know how problem.

Attached are a couple of pics of the second pour. Notice part was in the front, part was in the back. They hand troweled all of the edges and used a power float for the rest. They were even nice enough to go ahead and apply the Seal n Cure that I had ordered. I've never seen it applied with a power float before and trowel before. I'll give y'all a hint, it makes a hellova mess that way and does not reach the edges very well.

 

[stephan191]

Looks very average indeed. I would be hesitant to pay the GC for this job...

 

[akdiesel]

Guys, If you haven't poured a lot of concrete.... stuff happens. Lets give these guys a chance to make it right. Sometimes things are out of the installers hands. I've seen concrete suppliers load on top of what was left from the previous load to cut costs or time. This puts that "new" load into an advanced stage of the drying process, giving you less time to place it. The stop off on the way to the delivery site for lunch or what ever and adding a little water to keep it at the slump you ordered it without logging it on the ticket is a real common practice. This is the start of a hot load that wont react until it hits the air. Lots of things that could have been the problem.
but........ The "extra" grade stakes is a BIG clue this crew either had a bunch of inexperienced help that didn't know how to use a screed line. I placed grade stakes much further apart. Once the grade was cast at the stake, the (steel stakes) were pulled.

Now if you had a vapor retarder down (at least a 10 mil poly) I would use a laser to set screed or even a laser screed if the project was big enough to set it up. No penetrations into the vapor retarder.

I'm a bit confused with your statements. It seems you know a bit about concrete but you on one hand seem to allow for this and on the other hand don't.
The job should not be paid in full if it is not what was agreed upon. The pictures shown indicate a failure to complete a contracted job and or skimping on costs to just get the job done.

 

[dcs Inc]

The project is **** and should be replaced. All I was trying to state is to allow the GC/contractor to stand up and replace it before we get a crowd gathered to hang him.

 

[spotco2]

Spoke with the building inspector this morning and the pad has been rejected.

Emailed GC and let them know the good news. I'm waiting to hear back from them.

I expect him to grumble about it but make it right. I also offered to supply him with the contact info of some other reputable, local finishers.

I know everybody has a bad day and sometimes even we screw up on jobs and have to eat the repairs. However, since this was more sloppy than anything I am not sure that I want the original finisher back again.

They were really nice guys to hang out with for the day and part of me wants to give them the opportunity to make it right. Another part of me really does not feel comfortable with having the same finishers do it again.

I have almost considered telling the GC to just have them remove the pad, knock it off the total of the building and let me have someone else come in and redo it. That would actually save me some money but not sure they would go for it.

 

[JakeKohl]

Spoke with the building inspector this morning and the pad has been rejected.

Emailed GC and let them know the good news. I'm waiting to hear back from them.

I expect him to grumble about it but make it right. I also offered to supply him with the contact info of some other reputable, local finishers.

I know everybody has a bad day and sometimes even we screw up on jobs and have to eat the repairs. However, since this was more sloppy than anything I am not sure that I want the original finisher back again.

They were really nice guys to hang out with for the day and part of me wants to give them the opportunity to make it right. Another part of me really does not feel comfortable with having the same finishers do it again.

I have almost considered telling the GC to just have them remove the pad, knock it off the total of the building and let me have someone else come in and redo it. That would actually save me some money but not sure they would go for it.

I guess that's good news (so far). The GC is likely going to ask his contractor to come out and do it again for free (assuming he was subbing out the work) in the same way you're asking him to fulfill his obligation...be prepared for the same outfit to come back!

 

[spotco2]

Yeah, that's what I figure is going to happen.

I just hate those awkward moments.

 

[nolimits76]

Awkward or not, I'm glad the slab was rejected. It was pure ****!

If you do end up working a deal with the GC to credit you a new slab, be sure to get INDEPENDENT quotes for a new slab AND demo of the existing slab from other companies. Solicit a minimum of (3) companies for quotes so you have an idea of actual cost. Just because the GC had $X does not mean that is your cost to have it done.

The demo will be a fairly expensive item.

If that doesn't work, then it is a REASONABLE request that a DIFFERENT crew from the SAME company perform the work. Also, it may be to your benefit to hire a 3rd inspector that will be on-site for the pour to check batch receipts and ensure construction is being done properly. Additionally I would video and photo the process as proof. Be sure to let the GC know your intentions. I suspect the GC will also want to be on-site the day it is re-poured.

 

[spotco2]

Now they want to pour 2" on top of what's there to level it all out....

 

[JakeKohl]

Now they want to pour 2" on top of what's there to level it all out....

hmmmf...didn't see that coming. At least it should be keyed in pretty well with all the valleys.

I'm not sure I would be happy with that - could ceiling height be an issue (future car hoist)?

 

[JakeKohl]

If these guys do come back to repair it (pouring on top or starting over), you may want to have some agreed to (WRITTEN!) flatness specifications - something you can measure and it either passes or fails so you can really protect yourself. I don't think anyone would argue with having this in place as long as the spec is reasonable. Same thing with the finish....and put a note in there about no exposed wood (good lord).

A document that might be of some assistance:
http://www.concrete.org/General/WTRF6.pdf

 

[spotco2]

Ceiling height would not be an issue, but still no vapor barrier and the door openings will all have to be increased.

Would this be a reliable fix to the problem?

Y'all tell me because I don't know the answer.

It would sure be an easy fix.

 

[dcs Inc]

NO NO NO...... Crazy. Hell if you go with an overlay, I can install you one that will be harder than the concrete that's there. It has hybrid polymers and actually becomes part of the surface and it will only increase the height 1/8" at the highest spot. Oh, the surface needs to be shot blasted to open it up for adhesion. (It can be spiraled ground but shot blasting sounds harder).

Man...... OK, here's the deal. The cap will not bond with the existing concrete. It will be a separate structure. These guys have no idea. Yes it will look pretty for a year (Less) but as soon as the temps change the top will start to crack. The problem is the different slabs will move at different rates with the freeze-thaw cycles. This will cause the weakest slab to give to the stronger, thicker slab under it and it will crack like crazy.

Tell these bozo's to tear the **** out and do it right. No band aids, no ********. Go online and find independent studies on this subject, don't just take my word for it.

The only way I would ever do a cap is if I had enough height to install a minimum 2" of sand base and then a 4" slab on top.

 

[spotco2]

What about the bonding agents like Sika® Armatec 110 EpoCem or Weld-Crete?

As long as the surface is opened before the bonding agent is applied, the two surfaces should bond basically creating a 6" slab, right?

Does anyone know of a bonding agent that is compatible with the Legacy Seal and Cure that is on there now?

 

[dcs Inc]

do what ever you want

 

[spotco2]

Are these snake oil products?

Do they not work?

 

[zporta]

Start over man, why let them perform a "patch" on a brand new garage slab. It's hard to believe they would need a trowel machine on such a small slab.

I think it's hard to believe they have been around for 20 years, and if its true I'm not sure how they are still in business.

 

[dcs Inc]

****. you will never have a 6" slab without pouring a 6" slab.

 

[SteveCh]

Again, have it torn out and done over. I'm sensing you [OP] are having a bit of trouble with this, and the final decision is yours. If you don't tear it out and start over, it's a patch job. As Gene Dean, above, just said, do what you want. If a patch job satisfies you, you're the customer and you are living with it, if you're happy with the patch, good deal.

 

[spotco2]

I'm just getting mixed information from people about this.

A couple of people that I know that are not on here have had similar things like this done in their plants with no issues. One is a large, industrial machine shop that a similar thing done a couple of years ago in a high traffic area and have had no problems with it.

I agree that either the concrete guy or the GC should **** it up, put their big girl ******* on and R&R the pad. I'm just not sure that it's going to happen and after talking to the GC this evening, I'm starting to think they he is ready to pull out and not come back at all.

I'm just looking at alternative options that satisfies everyone and gets the building completed in a timely fashion.

 

[tomd]

This:

NO NO NO...... Crazy. Hell if you go with an overlay, I can install you one that will be harder than the concrete that's there. It has hybrid polymers and actually becomes part of the surface and it will only increase the height 1/8" at the highest spot. Oh, the surface needs to be shot blasted to open it up for adhesion. (It can be spiraled ground but shot blasting sounds harder).

Man...... OK, here's the deal. The cap will not bond with the existing concrete. It will be a separate structure. These guys have no idea. Yes it will look pretty for a year (Less) but as soon as the temps change the top will start to crack. The problem is the different slabs will move at different rates with the freeze-thaw cycles. This will cause the weakest slab to give to the stronger, thicker slab under it and it will crack like crazy.

Tell these bozo's to tear the **** out and do it right. No band aids, no ********. Go online and find independent studies on this subject, don't just take my word for it.

The only way I would ever do a cap is if I had enough height to install a minimum 2" of sand base and then a 4" slab on top.