Why Do I Need 1000+ ft lbs in an Impact?

[Ign]

It depends on your air supply and fittings. One day in the shop one of the guys was hammering away at a rusted on, salted on lug nut on a ford dualy, his snap on gun (the newer 1/2" "big boy") wouldn't take it off, so He asked to use my Ingersoll 2135 timax. That zipped it right off. I think snap on sprinkles glitter on their numbers, they're loud and obnoxious, but my quiet ti max got the job done. Try and find a gun with higher rating. What gun was it you saw the high rating on? I would also suggest, I they make it for your choice of gun, a boot. It's saved my gun damage.

Yep, this too. A loud air tool just SOUNDS more powerful so we THINK it's doing more. Human perception is a huge part of our world.

It's the exact same way guys put a K&N on their truck and remove the factory silencer box and THINK the truck is faster because they hear the WHOOSH

 

[MikeF2316]

Yep, this too. A loud air tool just SOUNDS more powerful so we THINK it's doing more. Human perception is a huge part of our world.

It's the exact same way guys put a K&N on their truck and remove the factory silencer box and THINK the truck is faster because they hear the WHOOSH

Don't forget, they read on the internet that filter gives them 50 hp more... So it must be true!

 

[MikeF2316]

all extensions lose torque when used on an impact, period. extensions used on breaker bars or torque wrenches do not.

it is no different than a torque stick. the only difference is that the "torque stick" is designed to lose a certain amount. your regular extensions depending on length, design, and material, will transfer different amounts of torque.

put that same torque stick(or extension) on your torque wrench, and absolutely none of the torque will be lost.

Somebody explained it to me this way: If you hit a nail with a hammer, all the impact is transferred to the nail. If you put a spring (the extension, torque stick) between the hammer and nail, the spring stores some of the hammer's force, so the nail "sees" a lower force, but for a longer time. Assuming, of course that the spring doesn't bottom out. The stronger the spring, the less effect this will have.

 

[psychoclaw84]

First of All: "MORE IS BETTER"

Second: A serviceable bolt does not advertise "USE 'X' AMOUNT OF TORQUE TO REMOVE".

I have encountered Honda Crank Pulley bolts that are difficult to remove. Initially, a Snap On MG725 was not able to remove the bolt. Had to soak the bolt with PB Blaster overnight before the MG725 would remove the bolt.

A very strong Impact Wrench would be invaluable when time is of the essence and you do not have access to a heat source, such as a Torch.

I do not have the most efficient couplings, I am using a Legacy Flexzilla Hose and the ColorConnex 1/4 couplers & fittings. These are not are as efficient as the Milton High Flow V-Style Couplers & Fittings. Someday, I'll purchase these fittings and enjoy the ride.

 

[volvo92906]

Yeah, but I didn't ask why ANYONE needed that much, just why I as a shmoe working on regular rusty cars would need that much.

Right.. But I didnt insult you, I hope, with my response. I said that "You need to open up and realize more than weekend warrior automotive guys use these impacts".

You can go out and buy a cheaper junk gun from Walmart or something... But it will be just that.. Junk. Why make 20 different guns for people when you can make 1 type that suits all needs, and exceeds some?

Granted, there are different models, but you get the idea. And as others have said.. A bolt put on 20 years ago at 150lbft will need a whole lot more torque to break loose after a bunch of corrosion is added to it.

 

[b7labelle]

As mentioned above extensions soak up torque and eventually you will run up on something it won't take loose, how often that happens is up to you.

Swivel sockets yes, straight extensions...not so much.

 

[rono]

Try removing honda or lexus crank bolts. Pain in the ****, gotta use big cheater bar.

 

[b7labelle]

Somebody explained it to me this way: If you hit a nail with a hammer, all the impact is transferred to the nail. If you put a spring (the extension, torque stick) between the hammer and nail, the spring stores some of the hammer's force, so the nail "sees" a lower force, but for a longer time. Assuming, of course that the spring doesn't bottom out. The stronger the spring, the less effect this will have.

That spring has to push against something. The hammer pushes the spring, the spring pushes the nail, while at the same time compressing. The amount of compression will be equal to the spring constant divided by the force applied.

 

[CWP1616L]

I'm gonna go ahead and make a recommendation to Bull.

It's a discontinued model, but it was made in the USA. I have this same model of gun that's in the link. It may only put out 350 ft-lbs, but it's still a very nice gun. The most notable benefit is the way it's shaped; it feels extremely well in the hand. From a pure ergonomic perspective, I'd say it's on par with any of those high dollar truck brand guns. And to make it even more powerful, I was advised by a Matco dealer to remove the exhaust silencer at the end of the handle; this allows the gun to breath better.

Here's the eBay link:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/INGERSOLL-R...NCH-NEW-IN-BOX-IR235-HEAVY-DUTY-/121053664016

 

[Bikes&Bowties]

My 1100 ft pound aircat wouldn't take off 20mm lug bolts on a JD 9770sts.. The shops 3/4" IR got out all but two and the shops 1" IR hammered on the last two and got them out... So I guess there is a need for 2000 ft lb impacts...

 

[Bull]

Right.. But I didnt insult you, I hope, with my response. I said that "You need to open up and realize more than weekend warrior automotive guys use these impacts".

You can go out and buy a cheaper junk gun from Walmart or something... But it will be just that.. Junk. Why make 20 different guns for people when you can make 1 type that suits all needs, and exceeds some?

Granted, there are different models, but you get the idea. And as others have said.. A bolt put on 20 years ago at 150lbft will need a whole lot more torque to break loose after a bunch of corrosion is added to it.

No sir, no insult taken. I just wanted to make sure no one thought I was ignorant about the need for these guns in certain situations; I DO admit to being ignorant about their need on a passenger vehicle. But people in the thread have educated me about that.

I'm gonna go ahead and make a recommendation to Bull.

It's a discontinued model, but it was made in the USA. I have this same model of gun that's in the link. It may only put out 350 ft-lbs, but it's still a very nice gun. The most notable benefit is the way it's shaped; it feels extremely well in the hand. From a pure ergonomic perspective, I'd say it's on par with any of those high dollar truck brand guns. And to make it even more powerful, I was advised by a Matco dealer to remove the exhaust silencer at the end of the handle; this allows the gun to breath better.

Here's the eBay link:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/INGERSOLL-R...NCH-NEW-IN-BOX-IR235-HEAVY-DUTY-/121053664016

My only problem with that is that I'd be spending just a shade less for that than for one of these guns with 1000+ ft-lb. torque ratings.

There are too many choices and it kind of *****. For every gun, there are x people who say it's great, and y who say it blows chunks. I don't have enough spare money to regret any purchases over about $50.

 

[Marlin]

If you actually had a bolt torqued to 1000ft lbs - and that would have to be, what, a 2.5" bolt? - none of these guns would break it free.

I don't know exactly where the ratings come from but they're using some kind of "new math."

Can't speak for others but at IR the Nut busting torque values are determined by torqueing an 1-1/4" bolt to different torques and then loosening it. The "NBT" torque we quote is the torque that the impact will loosen within 5 seconds. So a 2135TiMAX will loosen a bolt tightened to 1000 ft-lbs.

 

[purplezr2]

IR TI guns are nice, after 10 year mines is showing some wear. It is a heck of a gun, I have found plenty it won't remove. No matter what you will always find things that it won't remove. That said I have seen it remove bolts that are torqued to 500ftlbs

 

[tcsalvage]

since you don't want to make a mistake in your purchase of a impact gun and your looking at an aircat STOP. I had a nitro cat and it was advertised at 1000 ft lbs which it seamed to be at for the first six months. after I gutted it and sent it back to be rebuilt it came back a shadow of itself at most and gutted out in less than a month. I gave it to a member free with the cost of shipping and went back to snap on guns. also used ir guns with no problems. tool trucks are now carrying aircat guns under their label so be careful. for what its worth.

 

[Wakefield]

I guess an alternative title for this thread is "I need 1000+ft lbs in an Impact--does that mean I need a 3/4" (or a 1") instead of a 1/2"?"

 

[slowmaro305]

I have the Nitrocat 1200 1/2. Love it, but its not my everyday gun. I use an Ingersoll Rand thats rated around 600. When i have a stuck bolt or nut then i grab the nitro cat.

Liked the nitro cat so much i picked up the 3/8 version also.

 

[redwrench60]

Swivel sockets yes, straight extensions...not so much.

My experience says otherwise. Straight impact extensions flex torsionally.... they just do. More times than I can remember I've had to switch to a shorter extension or eliminate it completely to remove a tough bolt or nut.

 

[zkling]

Swivel sockets yes, straight extensions...not so much.

Eh, not really. Torsional rigidity is a function of the length of the shaft. Although the reaction force is the same at the opposing end, with an impact, the impulse is lost along the length of the shaft due to the short duration impulse, basically the shaft is acting as a torsional spring (as mentioned above) causing the impacts to appear less. Which is the first place why you use the impact. So those that say they notice a reduced performance with extensions, that makes sense.

My experience says otherwise. Straight impact extensions flex torsionally.... they just do.

This makes sense. Impact stuff is usually made out of something similar to spring steel. High yield and toughness.

 

[Carlyle_tools_guy]

I have a napa 1/2. Drive air gun and it has 1200 ft lbs and I love it I use it on my big jd tractor it's a beast

 

[jvitez]

Eh, not really. Torsional rigidity is a function of the length of the shaft. Although the reaction force is the same at the opposing end, with an impact, the impulse is lost along the length of the shaft due to the short duration impulse, basically the shaft is acting as a torsional spring (as mentioned above) causing the impacts to appear less. Which is the first place why you use the impact. So those that say they notice a reduced performance with extensions, that makes sense.



This makes sense. Impact stuff is usually made out of something similar to spring steel. High yield and toughness.

I was going to ask about the physics behind the statement that extensions reduce applied torque, as it didn't make sense to me as I assumed impact sockets and extensions were designed not to flex to allow the impact torque to pass onto the bolt. But here you've give a perfectly clear and logical explanation, without my even asking. Many thanks! :

 

[Haveblue]

^ totally agree that it does reduce torque. Not only do you have torsional flex of the extension, but you are "stacking" clearances between the anvil, female end of extension and the joint at the socket. Wear of extensions and sockets can also play a role in reducing impact power. From my experience, even with a whole new setup, you have more impacting power with the shortest possible extension..and even more with a socket directly on the anvil.

 

[zkling]

Many thanks! :

No prob

^ totally agree! Not only do you have torsional flex of the extension, but you are "stacking" clearances between the anvil, female end of extension and the joint at the socket.

VERY good point. I forgot to mention this. To put this in different terms. 5, 2" extensions is going to be harder for the impact work than 1 10" extension. Given same material props and cross sections.

 

[redwrench60]

Some of the performance issues associated with impact extensions can be mitigated by using a shorter extension, using an extension that's thicker in diameter, or by buying an impact that doesn't sob in it's pillow when you get it near an axle nut.

 

[Conductor562]

Proto's new 1/2" 1260 ft.lb. monster is in stock @ Trident. It's under $300 and knowing Proto like I do, I have very high expectations. No official word on COO yet, but it's rumored to be Taiwan. Haven't gotten my hands on it yet, but it's in the mail. I don't know if I need 1200+ ft. Lbs. of breakaway torque, nor if I will ever need it, but I want it

 

[nissan_crawler]

Yeah, but I didn't ask why ANYONE needed that much, just why I as a shmoe working on regular rusty cars would need that much. I understand that if someone is working on massive machinery there will be big torque numbers involved.

I think that the balancer bolt on an old Pontiac might be torqued to 150 ft lbs or so.

But I do get the logic of getting the most powerful gun you can for the money you have; that makes sense to me.

The Aircats seem to be oddly divisive; some folks report loving them and their incredible power and others say they are worse than Harbor Freight! That's quite a range.

I've had my nitrocat for 5ish years now, love it.

 

[CWP1616L]

This one might be alright. 1000 ft-lbs with twin hammers and assembled in the USA. $155 shipped.

http://www.tooltopia.com/aircat-1000th.aspx

 

[Marlin]

Be mindful that a Loosening torque of 1000 ft-lbs is not the same a a reverse torque rating of 1000 ft-lbs. Also, some companies may be a little loose with their definition of assmbled in the USA.

 

[CWP1616L]

Also, some companies may be a little loose with their definition of assmbled in the USA.

It just means the the product is put together in the USA with some parts made in another country; most likely the fasteners.

 

[emeraldcoupe]

since you don't want to make a mistake in your purchase of a impact gun and your looking at an aircat STOP. I had a nitro cat and it was advertised at 1000 ft lbs which it seamed to be at for the first six months. after I gutted it and sent it back to be rebuilt it came back a shadow of itself at most and gutted out in less than a month. I gave it to a member free with the cost of shipping and went back to snap on guns. also used ir guns with no problems. tool trucks are now carrying aircat guns under their label so be careful. for what its worth.

that was me. who ever you sent it to didn't rebuild it right, the cylinder was bad. i replaced it and it now makes the same power as when it was new.

 

[Ign]

Can't speak for others but at IR the Nut busting torque values are determined by torqueing an 1-1/4" bolt to different torques and then loosening it. The "NBT" torque we quote is the torque that the impact will loosen within 5 seconds. So a 2135TiMAX will loosen a bolt tightened to 1000 ft-lbs.

I didn't realize an 1.25" fastener could take 1000ft lbs but after referencing torque charts I see I was mistaken.

So you're saying a 2135TiMax will loosen an 1.25" bolt torqued to 1000ft lbs? If so, I'm not calling you a liar but I wouldnt' believe it until I saw it in person. Nothing against you, just one of those things I'd have to "see to believe."

How long are the 1.25" bolts used for testing?

Are you able to get the appropriately sized socket in 1/2" drive for the 1.25" bolt? (I know I at least would lose some power having to use an adapter to step 1/2" drive up to 3/4" drive for this.)

Is the testing done at the recommended 90psi? Or is the 2135TiMax rated to be run at more than 90psi?

 

[Marlin]

It just means the the product is put together in the USA with some parts made in another country; most likely the fasteners.

Comapnies have been known to bring in all components in sub assemblies and then just bolt 2 halves together or worse yet, add a label and call that aseembly.

 

[Marlin]

I didn't realize an 1.25" fastener could take 1000ft lbs but after referencing torque charts I see I was mistaken.

So you're saying a 2135TiMax will loosen an 1.25" bolt torqued to 1000ft lbs? If so, I'm not calling you a liar but I wouldnt' believe it until I saw it in person. Nothing against you, just one of those things I'd have to "see to believe."

How long are the 1.25" bolts used for testing?

Are you able to get the appropriately sized socket in 1/2" drive for the 1.25" bolt? (I know I at least would lose some power having to use an adapter to step 1/2" drive up to 3/4" drive for this.)

Is the testing done at the recommended 90psi? Or is the 2135TiMax rated to be run at more than 90psi?

Yes, structural grade A490 bolts are used, so they can definitley handle the torque, they are 5" long. We have to machine our own sockets as 1-7/8", 1/2" drive sockets are not readily available. Our testing is done at 90 psi set while the tool is running free speed. Under those conditions, the 2135TiMAX will remove a 1-1/4" bolt torqued to 1000 ft-lbs.

 

[zkling]

Comapnies have been known to bring in all components in sub assemblies and then just bolt 2 halves together or worse yet, add a label and call that aseembly.

Well it's nice that IR isn't bashful about stating "Made in China" on most of their new stuff.

 

[redwrench60]

Our testing is done at 90 psi set while the tool is running free speed.

This is worth repeating. It's hard to get people to understand that when manufacturers say 90PSI max air pressure they mean set the air regulator to 90 with the tool at full throttle free speed. Most people think it means just set the regulator to 90 at rest. Then wonder why the impact has no balls.

 

[4x4gearhead]

I think having a powerful impact is just plain helpful. As stated lots of accessories will make you lose power i.e. extensions, universal joints/sockets. Not only that but Bull, you live in massachoochoo (as I call it ) and I know they use a lot of salt on those roads. Salt = rust. Rust = **** time for you and your impact gun. These reasons alone are all I needed. I also work on bigger stuff and push the envelope at times with what Im using my 1/2 in gun for. I also would not suggest an aircat. The longest lasting gun we had at the shop for track work was a IR2135timax. As I see it, doing any kind of track maintenance (tracks on equipment/snowgroomers) puts any gun to the test with constant use and lots of rusty 1/2 in bolts. This is just my .02

 

[SuzukiGS750EZ]

My neighbor/buddy I plow with has had our plow truck which is now gone (cracked frame in 4 places last storm) for 15 years or so. It was so rusted when I went to perform any repairs under it I had to wear ear, eye and face protection due to rust. When it came time to take the plow off before we junked it, I used my 2135 qtimax. I have no idea what they're torqued to, but after all the corrosion and having to use an extension, universal & socket it took the huge bolts off. Even tightened up the bolts that hold the hydraulic to the plow. The air compressor ran out of air multiple times, but when it could deliver air for a few minutes at max pressure it worked wonders. I prefer my w7150 though, it's a beast of a gun and quiet too.

 

[KMinAF]

1000lbs would require some high quality sockets. Can you imagine an HF socket at 1000lbs of torque?

 

[Bull]

This is worth repeating. It's hard to get people to understand that when manufacturers say 90PSI max air pressure they mean set the air regulator to 90 with the tool at full throttle free speed. Most people think it means just set the regulator to 90 at rest. Then wonder why the impact has no balls.

Hmm. I absolutely did NOT know this. I thought you just set the reg to 90 with the tool off.

Why did I grow up so ignorant. I'm 37, shouldn't I know all this ****?!

Believe me guys, I'd love to buy one of those IR2135 guns, but I can't justify the cost of that, or a Snappy or whatever else in that range. I can buy an NOS USA-made Sioux for about $150 shipped. I can't find much at all on the net about the gun but found one place that rated it at 600 or so ft. lbs. I have no idea what scale (breakaway or whatever) that refers to. Or, I can buy an Aircat/Nitrocat for around the same money that supposedly puts out 1000+ torque numbers. That's it.

You can't waste your time reaching for the stars when your arms are stumpy.

 

[SuzukiGS750EZ]

A certain retailer with a jungle name has them for 260, i think i got mine for about that brand new from the same website. It's worth it. (2135 ti max). Quiet (if you so choose), powerful, light. The snap on guns are top heavy, loud and unsteady. My timax is very VERY balanced, light and powerful yet compact. Snap on addicts will disagree, but the 2135 wins hands down.

 

[Ign]

Hmm. I absolutely did NOT know this. I thought you just set the reg to 90 with the tool off.

Why did I grow up so ignorant. I'm 37, shouldn't I know all this ****?!

I think most garage hobbyists aren't running enough length of air line to notice, but you should still set the regulator as such. I figured it out many years ago when I found that my IR2131 ran well on the hose reel nearest the compressor, but spun up momentarily and then sounded sickly on the furthest hose reel. So I walked over and took a peek at the regulator, then adjusted while the tool was at WOT.

I started out ******** about manufacturer;s recommendation of 90psi, but now I run anywhere from 120 to 140 depending upon the temperature in my shop because my ARO regulator is PSYCHO and I refuse to adjust it several times a day (and apparently I refuse to replace it LOL). At this point I just want my 2131 to die so I have an excuse to upgrade, but it won't. Again, I think most people run over 90psi on their guns and seems you hear plenty of stories on these boards about shops that don't have a regulator on their system, so the techs have no choice to run but whatever psi comes out of the wall.