Welder wiring

[ratdoggy]

I have a "tombstone" welder and want to wire it up.
1. I have a single throw double breaker (40 amps) in my panel that was originally for an electric range (we have a gas one instead) I was thinking of using that
2. I bought enough heavy romex to wire my compressor and welder but the romex doesn't say what gauge it is. The bare copper ground is 3/32" and the stranded wire copper measures 3/16" is this adequate?
I'm getting a headache trying to figure this out
This is the welder....
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Lincoln-Electric-AC-DC-225-125-Welder-K1297/100053881#.UhlMNhusjLQ

Reading this it seems I need a 50amp breaker...
http://www.lincolnelectric.com/en-us/Equipment/Pages/product.aspx?product=K1297(LincolnElectric)

 

[Charles (in GA)]

I bought enough heavy romex to wire my compressor and welder but the romex doesn't say what gauge it is. The bare copper ground is 3/32" and the stranded wire copper measures 3/16" is this adequate?

How did you decide to buy it without knowing if it was the correct wire??????

Yes, the markings are on there, you may need to get the light at the right angle to read it, some of the Romex type wire has the lettering embossed in it, not printed, and can be difficult to spot or read.

Charles

 

[G_P]

The romex is marked if you bought it new. It might be stamped in the outer jacket or printed on but it will be there.

Wait....did you say the romex has stranded wire and a solid ground???? That's not romex. Romex wire has all solid conductors inside. Got any pics of the wire?


Sent via carrier pigeon.

 

[sands35]

Black jacket? 8 and 6 awg 4 wire stuff commonly used for oven and dryer installs is stranded. At least what you get at big box. "Romex" is sort of like Klenex or Xerox. What should be copyrighted is used as a common name. Too bad for Southwire.

 

[premierplayer]

AWG diameters
http://www.cableorganizer.com/articles/awg-facts.html

fractional equivalents
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/fractional-decimal-equivalents-d_1159.html

 

[ratdoggy]

How did you decide to buy it without knowing if it was the correct wire??????

Yes, the markings are on there, you may need to get the light at the right angle to read it, some of the Romex type wire has the lettering embossed in it, not printed, and can be difficult to spot or read.

Charles

I bought it before I had the welder. It was left over from my compressor install.

 

[ratdoggy]

Here's some pix
The white cable is marked 8/2 with ground.
I don't see info on the black cable

 

[brownbagg]

30 amp all you need for a tomb welder

 

[ratdoggy]

The romex is marked if you bought it new. It might be stamped in the outer jacket or printed on but it will be there.

Wait....did you say the romex has stranded wire and a solid ground???? That's not romex. Romex wire has all solid conductors inside. Got any pics of the wire?


Sent via carrier pigeon.

I guess it's not romex then

 

[Norcal]

The romex is marked if you bought it new. It might be stamped in the outer jacket or printed on but it will be there.

Wait....did you say the romex has stranded wire and a solid ground???? That's not romex. Romex wire has all solid conductors inside. Got any pics of the wire?


Sent via carrier pigeon.

8 AWG & larger is stranded.

Look if the cable info is embossed into the jacket, if it has no marking it is scrap metal, as a unmarked cable is a not a recognized wiring method by the NEC.

 

[ratdoggy]

Well I finally found out what size the cable is it's 6-3 it is marked on it in one of those dot matrix fonts (in dark red, why red?). It's almost impossible to read as it's worn off in spots. (it's never been used)
But anyway.
1. Is this OK to use for a approx 10' run to the welder's outlet?
2. Is the 40 amp breaker OK also. As the specs for welder seem to say 50 amp and someone on here said 30 amp is OK

 

[sberry]

The cable is ideal for a welder circuit and the breaker will be fine.

 

[2ManyProjects]

I'm getting a headache trying to figure this out
This is the welder....
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Lincoln-Electric-AC-DC-225-125-Welder-K1297/100053881#.UhlMNhusjLQ

Reading this it seems I need a 50amp breaker...
http://www.lincolnelectric.com/en-us/Equipment/Pages/product.aspx?product=K1297(LincolnElectric)

Basically, yes. But to be somewhat pedantic about it, the breaker gets sized based on the LESSER of either the wire AWG or the circuit's intended draw. In turn, the wire AWG should be chosen based on the load AND the run length..

Here's some pix
The white cable is marked 8/2 with ground.
I don't see info on the black cable

Unless I'm misunderstanding your application, the single-conductor black cable is unnecessary and irrelevant.

Per this handy-dandy chart Google kindly dug up for me:

http://lugsdirect.com/WireCurrentAmpacitiesNEC-Table-301-16.htm

the AWG 8/2 cable you already have MIGHT be just barely adequate, depending on two other factors: Namely, the aforementioned run length, AND the insulation rating of that particular cable (which should also be marked on the jacket -- if it isn't, you have to assume the worst). As you will note from the chart, that temperature rating needs to be 75-deg. C. or better for an AWG 8 cable to be acceptable for a 50A load. The run-length issue is a little fuzzier; while there are probably tables and such for this sort of thing SOMEWHERE, the simple rule of thumb is that you don't want to allow more than 3% voltage drop over the length of the run at full load (and less is always better). The standard formula to calculate this is:

CM = K x I x L / E

where:

CM = Circular Mil area of Conductors
K = 10.75 (a constant representing the resistance of copper)
I = Current in Amperes
L = Length in Feet
E = Voltage drop at load (in Volts)

The cross-sectional area of all standard AWG sizes can be found at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AWG#Tables_of_AWG_wire_sizes. Looking there, we find that AWG 8 has a cross-sectional area of 16,500 CM.

Re-arranging the formula slightly (since we're solving for Length in this case and have a known AWG), we get:

CM * E / K / I = L

So, for AWG 8 with a 50 Amp load, we get:

16,500 * 7.2 / 10.75 / 50 = L
118,800 / 10.75 / 50 = L
11,051.2 / 50 = L
221.0 = L

VERY IMPORTANT NOTE: This calculated maximum length is for the entire ROUND TRIP that the electrons must take from the distribution panel, to the load, and back again. So for anything resembling "normal" wiring, you need to divide that by two to get the maximum one-way run length. In your case, that's 110 feet. Arbitrarily allowing about ten feet for the welder's own power cord, call it 100 feet (unless you're hard-wiring it, of course).

30 amp all you need for a tomb welder

Too broad a generalization; and in this case, dead wrong. The model cited by the OP requires at least a 50A circuit.

I guess it's not romex then

It could be.

As already noted, "Romex" is a brand name which often gets (mis-)used as a generic term for all similar products, like the aforementined "Kleenex" and "Xerox" (also "Band-Aid", "AstroTurf,", "Baggies", "Dumpster", "Kitty Litter", and many more). The correct generic term is "NM-x", where the "NM" stands for "Non-Metallic" (in reference to the outer jacket), and the "-x" is a letter code indicating the temperature rating of the insulation.

Further, and as also noted by others, while the smaller gauges of NM-x use solid conductors, the larger ones DO use stranded wire, at least for the main current-carrying conductors. "Norcal" said that the switchover point is at AWG 8, and I have no reason to disbelieve him.

 

[pattenp]

The plain and simple. The 6-3 is fine to use with the 40A breaker. If the instructions for the welder say to use a 50A circuit then use a 50A breaker with the 6-3, that's okay too. But if you want to try the 40A breaker and you have no tripping problems then you're good to go. You will only need to use the black and red conductors and the ground for the welder so leave the white un-used. But you may already know this. Happy welding.

Well I finally found out what size the cable is it's 6-3 it is marked on it in one of those dot matrix fonts (in dark red, why red?). It's almost impossible to read as it's worn off in spots. (it's never been used)
But anyway.
1. Is this OK to use for a approx 10' run to the welder's outlet?
2. Is the 40 amp breaker OK also. As the specs for welder seem to say 50 amp and someone on here said 30 amp is OK

 

[2ManyProjects]

Ooops. Looks like concurrent editing/posting bit us here...

Well I finally found out what size the cable is it's 6-3 it is marked on it in one of those dot matrix fonts (in dark red, why red?).

I thought you said (in post #7 http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3323737&postcount=7) that it was marked "8/2 with Ground"?

1. Is this OK to use for a approx 10' run to the welder's outlet?

If it's really AWG 6, then yes. Even assuming the worst-case temperature rating, that's good for 55 Amps; and a 10-foot run is so trivial as to be a non-issue (but it is REALLY only 10 feet, as the wire flies, back to the distribution panel?).

2. Is the 40 amp breaker OK also. As the specs for welder seem to say 50 amp and someone on here said 30 amp is OK

That "someone" was wrong. The specs for your welder clearly state that it needs 50A at full load.

The cable is ideal for a welder circuit and the breaker will be fine.

The cable, near-certainly yes. The breaker, maybe not. But given that he already has that breaker, it won't hurt anything for him to try it. At worst, he'll get too many nuisance trips; at which point, he can swap out the breaker for a 50A one.

 

[Alchymist]

Basically, yes. But to be somewhat pedantic about it, the breaker gets sized based on the LESSER of either the wire AWG or the circuit's intended draw. In turn, the wire AWG should be chosen based on the load AND the run length..
You all are missing a couple of points. For welder use the #8 wire can be breakered at 50 Amps.

Too broad a generalization; and in this case, dead wrong. The model cited by the OP requires at least a 50A circuit.
Not quite - there are a great many "tombstone" welders running on 30 amp circuits.

Just an observation....

 

[pattenp]

Just who is the "you all" you're referring to? I was answering a direct question about the 6-3 cable.

You all are missing a couple of points. For welder use the #8 wire can be breakered at 50 Amps.


Just an observation....

 

[Alchymist]

Just who is the "you all" you're referring to? I was answering a direct question about the 6-3 cable.

Look closely and you will see I quoted "2ManyProjects".......and was merely making a point...

As to most of your posts, I am glad to see them, as it usually corresponds with what I would have posted if you didn't, thus saving me the trouble.

How's that for a "who I am referring to"?

 

[pattenp]

I was just poking fun at you about the broad "you all". No harm was meant. Kinda hard to poke fun in a written post without about a 50% chance of it being taken wrong. The smiley face at the end apparently didn't work.

Look closely and you will see I quoted "2ManyProjects".......and was merely making a point...

As to most of your posts, I am glad to see them, as it usually corresponds with what I would have posted if you didn't, thus saving me the trouble.

How's that for a "who I am referring to"?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Here's some pix
The white cable is marked 8/2 with ground.
I don't see info on the black cable

Looking at your pics, it appears that you have 2 different cables. 1 is NM 6/3 w/ ground and the other is NM 8/2 w/ ground.

Well I finally found out what size the cable is it's 6-3 it is marked on it in one of those dot matrix fonts (in dark red, why red?). It's almost impossible to read as it's worn off in spots. (it's never been used)
But anyway.
1. Is this OK to use for a approx 10' run to the welder's outlet?
2. Is the 40 amp breaker OK also. As the specs for welder seem to say 50 amp and someone on here said 30 amp is OK

Yes, a 10' run is very short and voltage drop wont be an issue.
And pattenP covered the rest of this in post #14.

....
Unless I'm misunderstanding your application, the single-conductor black cable is unnecessary and irrelevant.

I think the OP has 2 different cables.

Per this handy-dandy chart Google kindly dug up for me:

http://lugsdirect.com/WireCurrentAmpacitiesNEC-Table-301-16.htm

That is an ampacity table from the 2008 NEC and the 2011 NEC is the current code of which some ampacity values have changed.

the AWG 8/2 cable you already have MIGHT be just barely adequate, depending on two other factors: Namely, the aforementioned run length, AND the insulation rating of that particular cable (which should also be marked on the jacket -- if it isn't, you have to assume the worst). As you will note from the chart, that temperature rating needs to be 75-deg. C. or better for an AWG 8 cable to be acceptable for a 50A load...


NM wire is limited to a 60* c ampacity rating regardless of the 90* c rated conductors. In the OPs case, 8/2 would not be adequate because #8 NM is limited to 40a.

The run-length issue is a little fuzzier; while there are probably tables and such for this sort of thing SOMEWHERE, the simple rule of thumb is that you don't want to allow more than 3% voltage drop over the length of the run at full load (and less is always better). The standard formula to calculate this is:

CM = K x I x L / E

where:

CM = Circular Mil area of Conductors
K = 10.75 (a constant representing the resistance of copper)
I = Current in Amperes
L = Length in Feet
E = Voltage drop at load (in Volts)


Run length isnt fuzzy at all! While your formula is close to being correct theres a few errors. The resistance of copper is 12.9 (and aluminum is 21.2). Because of the roundtrip u mentioned below, u multiply the resistance factor by 2.

So the formula i use is cm=2k x I x L / E

The cross-sectional area of all standard AWG sizes can be found at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AWG#Tables_of_AWG_wire_sizes. Looking there, we find that AWG 8 has a cross-sectional area of 16,500 CM.

Re-arranging the formula slightly (since we're solving for Length in this case and have a known AWG), we get:

CM * E / K / I = L

So, for AWG 8 with a 50 Amp load, we get:

16,500 * 7.2 / 10.75 / 50 = L
118,800 / 10.75 / 50 = L
11,051.2 / 50 = L
221.0 = L

This formula and the result are incorrect because the K factor is wrong and u didnt multiply by 2. At the answer u got, the voltage drop would be 17.3v or 7.2%. Using the correct formula as i said above, 92' would be the length at which the voltage drop would be 7.2v or 3%!!

My comments in red!

 

[alfredeneuman]

The main goal is for the wire not to get overheated.

Welders, Motors, and Air Conditioning units aren't subject to the general ampacity rules of the NEC.

Motors and AC units because their starting current is so great for a very short time.

Welders are wired according to their duty cycle as a percentage of the full load current.


Table 630.11(A) Duty Cycle Multiplication Factors for Arc Welders
Duty Cycle Multiplier for Arc Welders
Nonmotor

100 - 1.00
80 - 0.89
70 - 0.84
60 - 0.78
50 - 0.71
40 - 0.63
30 - 0.55
20 or less - 0.45

In this case the full load current is 50 amps The welder that you have has a 20% duty factor.

50 amps X .45 = 22.5 amps

You could use #10 with the 50amp breaker.

 

[2ManyProjects]

Basically, yes. But to be somewhat pedantic about it, the breaker gets sized based on the LESSER of either the wire AWG or the circuit's intended draw. In turn, the wire AWG should be chosen based on the load AND the run length..

You all are missing a couple of points. For welder use the #8 wire can be breakered at 50 Amps.

Unless there is some sort of special exemption specifically for welders (in which case, I would expect that the welder would need to be hard-wired, as opposed to using a plug & socket, so as to obviate the possibility of some non-welder device being plugged into that "not really 50A" circuit), then as I noted previously the temperature rating of the insulation would be the determining factor. In the meantime, "wyliesdiesels" has noted that in the case of NM-B, one must always consider that rating to be 60* C., regardless of what it might actually be, and that some of the ampacity values have changed with the newest version of the NEC; but I don't have a copy of that handy to cite a specific example.

Too broad a generalization; and in this case, dead wrong. The model cited by the OP requires at least a 50A circuit.
Not quite - there are a great many "tombstone" welders running on 30 amp circuits.

That may be so. But it does not change the fact that THIS PARTICULAR "tombstone welder" requires 50A. This is clearly stated both on the product sheet downloadable from the Home Depot page the OP cited, AND on the manufacturer's own web page for that product, also cited by the OP.

So yes, any sweeping generalization to the effect that 30A is adequate for ANY "tombstone welder" is WRONG.

Per this handy-dandy chart Google kindly dug up for me:

http://lugsdirect.com/WireCurrentAmpacitiesNEC-Table-301-16.htm

That is an ampacity table from the 2008 NEC and the 2011 NEC is the current code of which some ampacity values have changed.

Are any of those changes in sizes/capacities which are relevant to this discussion?

NM wire is limited to a 60* c ampacity rating regardless of the 90* c rated conductors. In the OPs case, 8/2 would not be adequate because #8 NM is limited to 40a.

Interesting. Can you explain the "why" behind that?

Run length isnt fuzzy at all!

It is in the sense that (at least AFAIK) there is no hard-and-fast standard for maximum allowable voltage drop in the context of residential wiring. The 3% "rule of thumb" I cited is a good starting point; but I seriously doubt any inspector is going to fail you if it happened to work out to 3.5% or 4%. OTOH, 2.5% or 2% would be even better; and if it were my house, any such "edge case" would get the fatter wire "just because". So in effect, it becomes a matter of what you are comfortable with. Hence "fuzzy".

While your formula is close to being correct theres a few errors. The resistance of copper is 12.9 (and aluminum is 21.2).

12.9 (or 21.2) WHAT, precisely? Per the data I'm able to find, the actual resistivity of copper is either 1.68×10^−8 ρ (Ω·m) at 20 °C, or 1.72×10^−8 ρ (Ω·m) at 20 °C, depending on whether it is annealed or not. Now, while that may be an interesting factoid, it's not very useful in this context. The "10.75" figure I cited is a unitless constant, intended ONLY for use in that formula. And the formula itself is both WIDELY used for the purposes it is intended, and correlates well with every online calculator I've ever compared it to.

Because of the roundtrip u mentioned below, u multiply the resistance factor by 2.

Or divide the answer in half to get the "one-way" distance, as I explicitly stated in the part labeled (in boldface, even) "VERY IMPORTANT NOTE:".

My comments in red!

And a massive PITA to quote, after you buried them WITHIN the material you were quoting. May I ask you (and "Alchymist") to, in the future, close the quotes (with a "[ / Q U O T E]" tag -- spaces added to keep the BBS software from "interpreting" it) before adding your comments? It's simple enough to re-open the quote (with a "[ Q U O T E ]" tag) after that, if there is more original material you need to comment on.

 

[Alchymist]

Unless there is some sort of special exemption specifically for welders (in which case, I would expect that the welder would need to be hard-wired, as opposed to using a plug & socket, so as to obviate the possibility of some non-welder device being plugged into that "not really 50A" circuit), then as I noted previously the temperature rating of the insulation would be the determining factor. In the meantime, "wyliesdiesels" has noted that in the case of NM-B, one must always consider that rating to be 60* C., regardless of what it might actually be, and that some of the ampacity values have changed with the newest version of the NEC; but I don't have a copy of that handy to cite a specific example.



That may be so. But it does not change the fact that THIS PARTICULAR "tombstone welder" requires 50A. This is clearly stated both on the product sheet downloadable from the Home Depot page the OP cited, AND on the manufacturer's own web page for that product, also cited by the OP.

So yes, any sweeping generalization to the effect that 30A is adequate for ANY "tombstone welder" is WRONG.




Are any of those changes in sizes/capacities which are relevant to this discussion?



Interesting. Can you explain the "why" behind that?



It is in the sense that (at least AFAIK) there is no hard-and-fast standard for maximum allowable voltage drop in the context of residential wiring. The 3% "rule of thumb" I cited is a good starting point; but I seriously doubt any inspector is going to fail you if it happened to work out to 3.5% or 4%. OTOH, 2.5% or 2% would be even better; and if it were my house, any such "edge case" would get the fatter wire "just because". So in effect, it becomes a matter of what you are comfortable with. Hence "fuzzy".



12.9 (or 21.2) WHAT, precisely? Per the data I'm able to find, the actual resistivity of copper is either 1.68×10^−8 ρ (Ω·m) at 20 °C, or 1.72×10^−8 ρ (Ω·m) at 20 °C, depending on whether it is annealed or not. Now, while that may be an interesting factoid, it's not very useful in this context. The "10.75" figure I cited is a unitless constant, intended ONLY for use in that formula. And the formula itself is both WIDELY used for the purposes it is intended, and correlates well with every online calculator I've ever compared it to.



Or divide the answer in half to get the "one-way" distance, as I explicitly stated in the part labeled (in boldface, even) "VERY IMPORTANT NOTE:".




And a massive PITA to quote, after you buried them WITHIN the material you were quoting. May I ask you (and "Alchymist") to, in the future, close the quotes (with a "[ / Q U O T E]" tag -- spaces added to keep the BBS software from "interpreting" it) before adding your comments? It's simple enough to re-open the quote (with a "[ Q U O T E ]" tag) after that, if there is more original material you need to comment on.

Unless there is some sort of special exemption specifically for welders (in which case, I would expect that the welder would need to be hard-wired, as opposed to using a plug & socket, so as to obviate the possibility of some non-welder device being plugged into that "not really 50A" circuit)... see post 21

That may be so. But it does not change the fact that THIS PARTICULAR "tombstone welder" requires 50A. This is clearly stated both on the product sheet downloadable from the Home Depot page the OP cited, AND on the manufacturer's own web page for that product, also cited by the OP.

So yes, any sweeping generalization to the effect that 30A is adequate for ANY "tombstone welder" is WRONG...again see post 21.

 

[alfredeneuman]

Unless there is some sort of special exemption specifically for welders (in which case, I would expect that the welder would need to be hard-wired, as opposed to using a plug & socket, so as to obviate the possibility of some non-welder device being plugged into that "not really 50A" circuit), then as I noted previously the temperature rating of the insulation would be the determining factor. In the meantime, "wyliesdiesels" has noted that in the case of NM-B, one must always consider that rating to be 60* C., regardless of what it might actually be, and that some of the ampacity values have changed with the newest version of the NEC; but I don't have a copy of that handy to cite a specific example.

Article 630 of the NEC is devoted entirely to Welders and their special exemptions/provisons.

It says nowhere that the wiring be hard wired, instead of a plug and receptacle.

The 60°C ampacity column hasn't changed a bit since the 1950s.

 

[pattenp]

Not quite right. NEC 2008 Table 310.16 Listed #14Cu at 60 deg C as 20A and #12Cu at 60 deg C as 25A. Sections under 240.4 were modified for small conducts to limit #14 to 15A and #12 as 20A. 2011 NEC Table 310.15 (formerly 310.16) now shows #14 as 15A and #12 as 20A.

Article 630 of the NEC is devoted entirely to Welders and their special exemptions/provisons.

It says nowhere that the wiring be hard wired, instead of a plug and receptacle.

The 60°C ampacity column hasn't changed a bit since the 1950s.

 

[pattenp]

Correct. And as a matter of fact, NEC 210.21 (B) (1) Exception 2 is for the installation of a single receptacle for the exclusive use of a welder.

exception

Article 630 of the NEC is devoted entirely to Welders and their special exemptions/provisons.

It says nowhere that the wiring be hard wired, instead of a plug and receptacle.

The 60°C ampacity column hasn't changed a bit since the 1950s.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

@alfred- i didnt want to bring up Art.630 because I felt it would confuse things more plus the OP already had some leftover wire of a larger than needed gauge!

@2manyprojects- may i suggest u get a code book so u can give better responses in the future. Or just sit back and learn as u read. The main sparkies on this forum are Norcal, Aceman, speedy pete, alchymist, and myself and pattenp knows code very well!! There are a few other sparkies but they come and go. Any responses from others *may* be correct but i wouldnt trust them without verifying!

And no, there is no 'hard and fast standard' for voltage drop because the NEC only recommends maximum voltage drop percentages but does not require a maximum percentage. And this is just the reason why there isnt too many charts.

The 12.9 and 21.2 values i gave earlier is the resistance in ohms of 1 circular mil foot of conductor. The formula u used may be *widely used* but its not the correct formula when going by NEC code. U will have incorrect results as i already pointed out when using your formula!

As far as ampacity charts- google NEC 310.16 and NEC 310.15(b)(16). The first is NEC 2008 and the second is NEC 2011. I have a PDF version of 2011 on my phone that i found with the help of google!

And its a major PITA to quote and reply like i did to u because Im on a phone. Opening and closing quotes as u requested would take half a day just to break everything up!

 

[sberry]

This welder can be wired with 12 and a 50A breaker.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

This welder can be wired with 12 and a 50A breaker.

U should specify what type of wire. #12 THHN wire yes, #12 NM-B not to code but would probably be ok!

 

[sberry]

Yes the point I was making is that this can get complicated and it doesn't always need to be so. No one thinks that minimum standard in this case is a good idea and it is reflected in the voltage drop numbers, even short distances add insult to it.

Things get a lot better with a 10 wire and I doubt you could overheat it with a buzzer. At least not one with a factory cord.

 

[sberry]

I believe a MM252 or similar is the most greedy unit hat comes with a factory 50A plug. They got a heavy cord and spec an 8 wire. A guy cant run it that hard at home though.

They installed a lot of these back in the day 60A entrance panels to the garage. They used the "range" side and fused at 50A to a recept with a 10 cable. Lots of range cable used for it too. Often the feed thru lugs were tapped with another 10 to a 1 armed bandit for an air comp.

 

[sberry]

Lincoln and probably others made a 180 welder that somehow slid under another electric class, I don't remember all the details though. I kind of ruined mine by letting it sit around while I was displaced but really don't have any use for it.