Replace two prong with another two prong or GFCI?

[JimmyTheMonkey]

Quick question - If I am replacing my old and worn two prong outlets, should I replace them with more two prongs, or should I put in GFCI? What does code dictate?

I have a house built in 1952. When we first moved in earlier this year, an electrician came in to fix an issue we had where the line came into the house. While he was there, the electrician put in a proper earth ground and then went through the house and added one or two fully grounded outlets in each room of the house. These new outlets are three pronged. I am satisfied with the amount of three pronged outlets we have.

I do want to replace all of the old two pronged outlets because most of them are old and worn and do not hold plugs very well anymore. Having to reset the alarm clock twice a week when it falls out of the outlet drives me crazy.

I was planning on going through and replacing all of the two pronged outlets with more two pronged outlets using something like this (http://www.lowes.com/pd_72957-334-7...uctId=1099403&Ns=p_product_qty_sales_dollar|1).

Is this the way to go? Do I need to use GFCI outlets instead?

I don't need any more three pronged outlets (the few things I plug in with a ground all have a grounded outlet nearby). I am perfectly happy with only being able to use ungrounded appliances. Is just replacing with new two pronged outlets the way to go to stay in code?

This is a fairly simple question but every search I did revealed people who wanted to upgrade to three pronged outlets, but my understand is that will be a code violation unless the unit is properly grounded. I have no interest in going around and replacing all of the wiring as I have thick plaster walls and its a huge pain in the ****!

Thanks!

 

[mmack66]

If you don't need 3-prong outlets, I'd just put 2-prong outlets back in.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

There are very few items used in a house under normal conditions requiring a grounded outlet.

 

[sands35]

There are very few items used in a house under normal conditions requiring a grounded outlet.

Typically only in the kitchen are 3 prongs devices used. Perhaps with the TV or some audio/video gear (but not always). I think the only AV thing that is grounded in my house is the xbox.

IMHO, if the house doesn't have grounds, then don't worry about it.

I'd think about bringing the bathrooms and the kitchen up to current code though.

One or two properly grounded outlets per room is fine. Frankly, only really needed for running power tools for house projects.

 

[JimmyTheMonkey]

So just replacing with more two pronged outlets should keep me in code? I don't need to do GFCI? I would prefer to do just do two-pronged because it would prevent an accidental use of a three prong plug in an ungrounded outlet

 

[sands35]

Yes, 2 prongs are OK. You don't need GFCI for common outlets.

It's a bad idea to install 3 prong outlets without a ground. The user may expect that protection and not have it.

Although some AHJs and perhaps some insurers will require the Kitchen and the Bathrooms to be brought up to date if you ever pull a permit for work in those rooms.

 

[JimmyTheMonkey]

Yes, 2 prongs are OK. You don't need GFCI for common outlets.

It's a bad idea to install 3 prong outlets without a ground. The user may expect that protection and not have it.

Although some AHJs and perhaps some insurers will require the Kitchen and the Bathrooms to be brought up to date if you ever pull a permit for work in those rooms.

Thanks, Sands for the clear answer. My Kitchen and bathrooms were already updated along with the other outlets in each room. I am just worrying about the living/dining/study/bedrooms at this point. I should have made that clear before!

I also bought some additional outlets and wiring for my garage. I can't believe the previous owner only had 2 two prong outlets in the entire garage!! The sump pump was plugged into two extension cords and then a three to two pronged converter... scary stuff. Luckily, the garage is cinder block, so replacing the wiring should be very easy indeed!

 

[mmack66]

I used to work for a property management company, and some of the owners of the houses we managed made the mistake of replacing all of the 2-prong outlets with 3-prong outlets, with no additional wiring upgrades, and subsequent inspections by the housing authority revealed open grounds everywhere. The owner had the choice of returning the outlets back to 2-prong, or grounding all of the 3-prong outlets.

 

[ishiboo]

A GFCI restores SOME of the effective safety functionality of not having a ground present, since a chassis short to ground on the equipment would cause the equipment to be electrified with no blown fuse/breaker on a 2-wire outlet, touching it would cause you to be shocked. Having a GFCI on that outlet would stop the shock instantly, preventing electrocution in many instances.

I'd replace with a GFCI. There is a sticker in the box that must be placed on the receptacle for this situation.

 

[sands35]

I work in the white goods industry (home appliances) as an engineering manager. If the appliance does not have a grounded 3 prong cord, UL requires higher levels of insulation inside the product. Frankly, it's really only a problem with very old appliances, and then typically only ones with motors, where the insulation has broken down.

i.e., 2 pronged corded appliances plugged into 2 prong outlets are perfectly safe. There isn't a practical way to plug a 3 prong into them unless somebody cuts the ground prong off or defeats a 3>2 prong adapter (can you even buy those anymore?).

 

[theoldwizard1]

There are very few items used in a house under normal conditions requiring a grounded outlet.

More than you might think !

I put in a GFCI at my daughters house (built in '47), with the proper warning label, so they could plug in an outlet strip and all of their A/V equipment without the stupid adapter falling out of the wall.

 

[mmack66]

I work in the white goods industry (home appliances) as an engineering manager. If the appliance does not have a grounded 3 prong cord, UL requires higher levels of insulation inside the product. Frankly, it's really only a problem with very old appliances, and then typically only ones with motors, where the insulation has broken down.

i.e., 2 pronged corded appliances plugged into 2 prong outlets are perfectly safe. There isn't a practical way to plug a 3 prong into them unless somebody cuts the ground prong off or defeats a 3>2 prong adapter (can you even buy those anymore?).

What do you mean by defeating a 3>2 prong adapter? That is what they are for, and of course they are still made.

 

[eljefino]

If you have metal boxes and conduit you might be grounded and not even know it! Simply installing a grounded outlet would ground it through its mounting screws, though code might require you run a pigtail wire too. Similarly a GFCI might actually ground itself.

I'd see how the electrician grounded the outlets that he claims are grounded for grins.

I'd put in ungrounded outlets though, as "service replacements" and call it good.

 

[Fishplate]

What's not been said here is that a GFCI protects all outlets downstream on the same circuit. So replacing all outlets with GFCI would be overkill, and may have unforeseen side effects.

 

[JimmyTheMonkey]

I watched the electrician install some of the outlets, and double checked his work when he was done. All are brand new wires that are properly grounded (now, he tried to get away with grounding one outlet to the water heater, but I called him on that one and he fixed it).

All of the electrical boxes are metal boxes (this house is old!). Although, I am under the impression that grounding an outlet to a box (even with a pigtail) is not a proper ground and will not save whatever device is plugged into it in the case of a surge (even if plugged into a surge protector.) Does grounding an outlet to the metal case with a pigtail comply with code?

Does grounding to the box solve the the shock problem brought up by Ishiboo? I am not really familiar with what he is talking about. Is he referring to a lightning strike or to an appliance malfunctioning and creating its own electrical surge? If safety is an issue (and not just saving the appliance's life) I will rethink the two pronged outlet.

Because of the surge protection, and complying with code, I think the consensus is to just replace the outlets with more two pronged outlets, correct?

Is there any benefits to grounding an outlet to the box or putting in a GFCI other than the ability to plug a 3 pronged appliance in? Assuming I just plug in two pronged appliances to these new outlets, is there any reason NOT to use 3 pronged outlets?

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

If you have metal boxes and conduit you might be grounded and not even know it! Simply installing a grounded outlet would ground it through its mounting screws, though code might require you run a pigtail wire too. Similarly a GFCI might actually ground itself.

I'd see how the electrician grounded the outlets that he claims are grounded for grins.

I'd put in ungrounded outlets though, as "service replacements" and call it good.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

I watched the electrician install some of the outlets, and double checked his work when he was done. All are brand new wires that are properly grounded (now, he tried to get away with grounding one outlet to the water heater, but I called him on that one and he fixed it).

All of the electrical boxes are metal boxes (this house is old!). Although, I am under the impression that grounding an outlet to a box (even with a pigtail) is not a proper ground and will not save whatever device is plugged into it in the case of a surge (even if plugged into a surge protector.) Does grounding an outlet to the metal case with a pigtail comply with code?

Does grounding to the box solve the the shock problem brought up by Ishiboo? I am not really familiar with what he is talking about. Is he referring to a lightning strike or to an appliance malfunctioning and creating its own electrical surge? If safety is an issue (and not just saving the appliance's life) I will rethink the two pronged outlet.

Because of the surge protection, and complying with code, I think the consensus is to just replace the outlets with more two pronged outlets, correct?

Is there any benefits to grounding an outlet to the box or putting in a GFCI other than the ability to plug a 3 pronged appliance in? Assuming I just plug in two pronged appliances to these new outlets, is there any reason NOT to use 3 pronged outlets?

Bonding the plug to a metal box only works if it is attached to conduit back to the panel,or you have a ground wire bonded to the box going back to panel.
Im sure somebody is going to come back and say you can bond the metal box with a piece of ground wire to a water pipe,but thats hack work.

 

[sands35]

What do you mean by defeating a 3>2 prong adapter? That is what they are for, and of course they are still made.

The male 2 prong side has a little fork that is supoosed to be screwed down to the cover screw, which should be grounded back to the panel.

I doubt that most people do that.

 

[willf650]

I would just install two prong outlets but you can install 3 prongs to the existing wiring provided the following:

1. You install a GFCI upstream of the outlets or do all GFCI.(Obviously it makes sense to install one GFCI closet to thee feed of the circuit. Subsequent outlets will be protected by the upstream GFCI.)
2. You tag all the outlet with "GFCI protected no equipment ground". This includes the leading GFCI. (The GFCI's usually come with a few of these stickers.)

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

The male 2 prong side has a little fork that is supoosed to be screwed down to the cover screw, which should be grounded back to the panel.

I doubt that most people do that.

Well if the box was grounded back to the panel Id just swap the outlet for a grounded version,unfortunately most of those old metal boxes were never grounded around these parts anyway.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

I would just install two prong outlets but you can install 3 prongs to the existing wiring provided the following:

1. You install a GFCI upstream of the outlets or do all GFCI.(Obviously it makes sense to install one GFCI closet to thee feed of the circuit. Subsequent outlets will be protected by the upstream GFCI.)
2. You tag all the outlet with "GFCI protected no equipment ground". This includes the leading GFCI. (The GFCI's usually come with a few of these stickers.)

A lot of those older boxes dont have room to fit a gfi in them and seperate the wiring though.

 

[2ManyProjects]

Quick question - If I am replacing my old and worn two prong outlets, should I replace them with more two prongs, or should I put in GFCI? What does code dictate?

I'll let others speak to most of the code issues; but there are also some practical implications involved here which go quite beyond any bureaucratic considerations...

First, the way you phrased the question implies some misunderstanding: "Three-prong" (i.e., equipment-grounding) outlets and GFCI outlets are two different things, even if the latter (coincidentally, in this context) also has that third hole. So really, you have THREE choices:

1. - Replace the existing non-grounding (i.e., "Two-Prong") outlets with GFCI outlets (on at least the "first" outlet in any string of daisy-chained outlets).

2. - Replace the existing non-grounding (i.e., "Two-Prong") outlets with modern three-prong (but non-GFCI) types.

3. - Replace the existing non-grounding (i.e., "Two-Prong") outlets with similar (but new) non-grounding (i.e., "Two-Prong") outlets.

OK, actually, there's a fourth possibility:

4. - Do nothing, at least for now.

Each of these approaches has its own set of implications.

As others have mentioned, installing a GFCI outlet in a circuit which does not have a proper grounding conductor MAY be marginally better than nothing; but it can (and probably will) can lead to some issues down the line (such as after those nice little labels either fall off or are painted over). Now OTOH, given the age of the house (and hence, the wiring and associated devices), all those old outlets are PROBABLY installed in metal boxes. Given that, I would suggest that you test those boxes to see if they are already grounded (such as through conduit, as previously mentioned). If so, you can install a (bare copper) pigtail inside the box, and connect that to the GFCI outlet's (green) grounding screw. But if your boxes are NOT grounded, don't do this. Note that you do NOT need GFCI protection anywhere that is not considered a (potentially) "wet" area, such as a Kitchen or Bath (and, maybe, per the latest NEC, a Garage). Which brings us to...

Much the same logic applies to installing modern three-prong (non-GFCI) outlets. If you can get a "real" ground to that third pin, they are greatly preferable to two-prong outlets (old or new). But without a real ground in the box, they are worse than useless and should NOT be installed.

Replacing your old outlets with new two-prong outlets will presumably solve the loose plug problem, but accomplish little or nothing else. You will still not be able to (safely) use any devices which come equipped with three-prong plugs. If either of the "three-prong" solutions mentioned above prove impractical, I can see the value in doing this ONLY on those specific outlets which are giving you grief at the moment (such as the one you plug that alarm clock into, for example). But I probably would NOT do this for any outlet that is NOT already giving you trouble.

The "Do Nothing" (except maybe for that one outlet) approach can quite reasonably be considered a valid temporary solution, until such time as you are willing to bite the bullet and re-wire as necessary to PROPERLY support equipment-grounding and/or GFCI outlets. And note: You also get to decide how long "temporary" lasts.

There are very few items used in a house under normal conditions requiring a grounded outlet.

As someone already said, "more than you might imagine." To the best of my recollection, every computer, printer, monitor, etc., I've ever seen (after more than 30 years in the business) has used three-prong power cords. So too do my main audio amplifiers (granted, they're pretty serious amplifiers, but still...), my blender, my hand-held electric drill, and several other misc. items around the house.

But even more ominous is the proliferation of polarized two-prong plugs, which are not only VERY common these days (including on most "wall wart" style power suplies for all manner of small gadgets), they are becoming more so all the time. That said, the specific outlet cited by the OP does appear to be polarized (which frankly, surprises me a bit, as every one I've ever seen has been NON-polarized; but then, I've not gone looking for new two-prong outlets lately); so maybe he can side-step this problem. But it would still be a half-assed solution, IMCO.

 

[JimmyTheMonkey]

Thank you for the advice, everyone, especially those who took the time to read all of my ramblings. I picked up 16 two pronged outlets to replace all of the remaining old and worn outlets. Along the way, I discovered that two of the 3-pronged outlets the previous owner installed in a addition were not even grounded!!

Since the service box is in the garage, I will just run new wiring for the outlets in in the garage and make everything proper 3-pronged while I am replacing the boxes with bigger 4 outlet boxes. This will be easy since my garage walls are bare cinder block and my garage ceiling is unfinished rafters below the master bedroom.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

There are very few items used in a house under normal conditions requiring a grounded outlet.

So true. A look around my house revealed very few items with a ground pin. The computer stuff and the copier, the fridge, and the microwave............. hmmm, cannot find anything else. The vacuum, the alarm clock, the lamps, the oscillating fan, the toaster, cell phone charger, every power supply brick in the house......... I looked and looked, cannot find any other three prong devices. I grew up in a 1956 house with two prong, I'm still alive.

Charles

 

[theoldwizard1]

There are very few items used in a house under normal conditions requiring a grounded outlet.

Audio/video and computer equipment tends to have a ground pin. Also, most refrigerators and microwaves.

As I mentioned before, I installed a GFCI outlet at my daughter's house so they could use a power strip for their A/V and cable equipment.