Pole Barn Wiring Question

[77cj]

Hello All, from southwestern Pa. and beginning my first pole barn wiring. 24x32x10 barn went up in June with 2 car door and 1 car door. This site is perfect in having a lot of information but it cab get pretty confusing pretty quick with where some of these threads go (lol). In looking for advice on how I've done and what to do. I rented trencher this weekend and ran 75' of 1.5" PVC under/above ground conduit from inside home next to 200 amp service to in the barn (some under and some above ground). I purchased from Lowes 2224 SE XHHW-2 and pulled through conduit. Purchased a GE 125amp main lug panel for in barn.

I'm planning on adding lights and outlets running 15 and 20 amp circuits. It appears as some on this site have been able to run 12 ga. Romex from outlet boxes mounted on the poles by stapling to under side of the 2x6's running horizontally around the barn (behind each post between tin and post).

I wired a 12x30 addition we put on or house years back and passed inspection with no problems. Please let me know your thoughts.

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[pattenp]

I'll start with the bad news is that Type SE can not be under ground in conduit. Do you have more info on the wire?

Does it look like this?

 

[77cj]

pattenp, yes it does look like the picture.

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[pattenp]

I'm sorry to say that wire is not approved to be used under ground. Did you ask the sales person if that wire was appropriate for under ground use? You need to use THWN or Mobile Home Feeder. SE cable can be used in wet locations but only above ground.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

On to other bad news, how many circuits do u plan on having? If u youre gonna have more than 6, that main lug pnakle will either need to be swapped for a main breaker panel or you will need to put in a main breaker and backfeed it!!

That SE wire will get nasty underground!!

 

[77cj]

pattenp, would it help to remove the outer casings and leave in conduit? Wylie, the panel is an 8/16 and I'm just planning on a 30 amp DP for air compressor then lights and outlets.

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[Norcal]

pattenp, would it help to remove the outer casings and leave in conduit? Wylie, the panel is an 8/16 and I'm just planning on a 30 amp DP for air compressor then lights and outlets.

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No, skinning off the sheathing will not make it OK. Get a main breaker panel, a 8 circuit panel will not be a good choice in the future, + if have more then 6 circuits a main is required anyway.

 

[pattenp]

You'd think that SE cable would be okay to use underground in conduit because the individual conductors are XHHW-2 but the specs for the cable explicitly say not to be used underground. You can buy the single conductors of XHHW-2 or THWN-2 and put it in conduit underground, so go figure. The issue with stripping off the jacket of the SER is the individual conductors do not have the proper identifier markings on them to meet code requirements. And to restate if the panel ends up with more than 6 circuit breakers to turn off all the power then a main disconnect is needed at the structure. This is another NEC requirement. We can only tell you what NEC requires. If this work is not being inspected then it's your judgement call.

I'll throw out something else.... do you know not to bond the neutral to ground at the barn panel and also to install a grounding electrode system at the barn?

Edit: Oh.. to add, the main reason the SER is not good underground is the equipment ground is bare and is only protected by the outer PVC jacket. The ground would also need to be XHHW-2.

pattenp, would it help to remove the outer casings and leave in conduit? Wylie, the panel is an 8/16 and I'm just planning on a 30 amp DP for air compressor then lights and outlets.

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[77cj]

Talked to Southwire and tech said one option of running single conductor THHW or mobile home feeder. Guess I'm going to change out for mobile home feeder. (Here I go again) guy at lows said I couldn't run two main breakers on the same run. So guess I'm off to get a 125 amp main service panel also. Looks like the only thing I did right so far was the conduit! (Maybe)

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[77cj]

pattenp, pretty much what I just heard from southwire also. As for the not bonding the ground and adding grounding rod system add barn and using a 125 amp main panel was exactly what the first guy at HD said to v do. Figures when I went to buy he was not working.

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[pattenp]

Wrong.... just flat out wrong. You'll have the breaker in the main panel protecting the feeder and the main breaker in the sub-panel. The purpose of the main breaker in the sub is to act as a disconnect for all the circuits in the barn.

Edit: Is this the same guy who sold you SE?

Edit Edit: You just barely did okay with the conduit by getting 1.5 inch.

Talked to Southwire and tech said one option of running single conductor THHW or mobile home feeder. Guess I'm going to change out for mobile home feeder. (Here I go again) guy at lows said I couldn't run two main breakers on the same run. So guess I'm off to get a 125 amp main service panel also. Looks like the only thing I did right so far was the conduit! (Maybe)

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[pattenp]

I figured I'd better jump back in with if you use Mobile Home Feeder it needs to be in conduit inside the structure. I wasn't sure if you ran your conduit from panel to panel or not because SE is not require to be in conduit inside. You can use the SE inside and splice it to the MHF in a large junction box if you don't have conduit inside to the panels.

 

[77cj]

Yep same guy. Conduit goes from panel in barn to in house next to 200 amp panel. Here's a question for you, I was going to run liqui-tight from end of conduit into panel (approx 3')

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[pattenp]

That's okay.

Yep same guy. Conduit goes from panel in barn to in house next to 200 amp panel. Here's a question for you, I was going to run liqui-tight from end of conduit into panel (approx 3')

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[77cj]

Okay I'm tracking down mobile home feeder and am looking at this panel http://m.lowes.com/product?langId=-...66850&store=3051&view=etail&nValue=4294722482 from Lowes. I believe I'll have to unbond the ground and run grounding rod at the barn.

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[pattenp]

That Lowes link won't open. I think it's a page for a mobile app.

Normally you will remove the bonding screw from the existing bar to the box and that bar becomes the neutral bar. You then need to buy a ground bar kit for that panel for just the grounds to connect to. You should install 2 8ft rods 6ft apart using one continuous #6 bare copper wire.

Okay I'm tracking down mobile home feeder and am looking at this panel http://m.lowes.com/product?langId=-...66850&store=3051&view=etail&nValue=4294722482 from Lowes. I believe I'll have to unbond the ground and run grounding rod at the barn.

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[77cj]

OK, I got that, where I'm a little foggy is when running the mobile home feeder there are for wires. Two hot, one common or neutral then what happens to the bare wire or ground coming from 200 amp service?

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[77cj]

Sorry about the link try this one http://m.lowes.com/product?langId=-...6850&store=3051&view=detail&nValue=4294722482

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[pattenp]

The feed is 4 wires, 2 hots, 1 neutral, 1 equipment ground. In the main panel the 2 hots go to a 2 pole breaker. Both the neutral and equipment ground attach to the neutral/ground bar. The neutral and ground are bonded in the main panel so both wires can connect to the same bar. At the sub-panel the equipment ground is attached to the new added ground bar which is bonded to the box. The neutral is attached to the bar that came in the panel but is now un-bonded by removing the green screw that bonds it to the box. The ground wire in MHF is not bare, it's an insulated green wire.

OK, I got that, where I'm a little foggy is when running the mobile home feeder there are for wires. Two hot, one common or neutral then what happens to the bare wire or ground coming from 200 amp service?

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[pattenp]

That panel is fine. You will need to buy a ground bar kit for it so you can isolate the neutrals.

Edit: The grounding electrodes ( 2 ground rods 6 ft apart) are connected to the sub-panel ground bar using one continuous piece of bare #6 copper wire.

Sorry about the link try this one http://m.lowes.com/product?langId=-...6850&store=3051&view=detail&nValue=4294722482

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[77cj]

pattenp you have been a huge help on this subject (also correct again on the ground wire being insulated). Did the last link open? I can overcome these concerns. On another note I do plan to insulate and finish the interior but may be awhile. What's the simplest route for running wiring for outlets and lights? Romex? Conduit / no conduit?

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[pattenp]

The last link did open but was a little funky. It's a mobile device link because it starts with m.lowes instead of www.lowes.

To do Romes vs. Conduit is a personal choice. Some people like surface mounted conduit because it makes it easy to modify circuits if needed. Personally I put all my wiring in the walls just as you do in the house using Romex. I just like the cleaner look. If the walls are all open then using Romex is the easiest route to take. Just make sure you wire everything you can think of so not to have to go back and cut open the wall to add something. Thinking of everything is easier said than done. I thought I put in everything I needed but still went back later to add something.

 

[77cj]

I saw couple debates on this but can you run romex on top of horizontal 2x6s around perimeter (between posts and tin)

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[pattenp]

Yes you can. You just need to make sure that the Romex is not run in a manner that puts it where there's a chance of being damaged. Such as keeping it back from nailing surfaces or hanging loose where something can snag it or where it can be stepped on such as when climbing into attic space.

I saw couple debates on this but can you run romex on top of horizontal 2x6s around perimeter (between posts and tin)

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[77cj]

Thank you for the help. It may take a little while to get turned around from where I'm at but at least I have a straight forward direction!!

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[eastcoastdjent]

Been following this post, I too have a 28x36 pole barn. I have a 200 amp service in the house and just purchased a GE 125 amp panel for the pole barn. I talked to an electrician friend and he told me to get a 100 amp double pull breaker for the 200 amp panel in the house. He then told me to get URD aluminum direct burial wire (Size 1 aluminum, 2 conductors, 1 neutral #2 and #4 ground.) It will be in 2" conduit and the run will be about 30ft. to the pole barn. I will also install 2 grounding rods. Does this sound about right? I have 10 t-8 lights and a lot of receptacles. Not running anything big maybe compressor with 3/4 motor on it. Also have 2 liftmaster 3900 garage openers.

 

[pattenp]

#1 aluminum is correct for 100A breaker. The main thing to know about URD cable is it is not to be run inside of the structure, it has to be terminated outside. This means you need to stop the URD outside in a junction box and switch to SER cable for the run into the inside of the structure. The reason for this is because URD does not have fire resistant insulation to be used for interior wiring. If I were you I'd drop back to a 90amp breaker and use 2-2-4-6 or 2-2-2-4 Mobile Home feeder in conduit from panel to panel.

Mobile Home Feeder
http://www.southwire.com/ProductCatalog/XTEInterfaceServlet?contentKey=prodcatsheet15

Been following this post, I too have a 28x36 pole barn. I have a 200 amp service in the house and just purchased a GE 125 amp panel for the pole barn. I talked to an electrician friend and he told me to get a 100 amp double pull breaker for the 200 amp panel in the house. He then told me to get URD aluminum direct burial wire (Size 1 aluminum, 2 conductors, 1 neutral #2 and #4 ground.) It will be in 2" conduit and the run will be about 30ft. to the pole barn. I will also install 2 grounding rods. Does this sound about right? I have 10 t-8 lights and a lot of receptacles. Not running anything big maybe compressor with 3/4 motor on it. Also have 2 liftmaster 3900 garage openers.

 

[TiredDude]

Just want to say kudos to pattenp (and the others that we all know) for being such a good resource on GJ.

 

[Highbeam]

Just want to say kudos to pattenp (and the others that we all know) for being such a good resource on GJ.

I agree, very good advice. Prompt and accurate without making us DIY guys feel like idiots.

 

[eastcoastdjent]

I agree, Thanks for the help

 

[JBourquin]

You should install 2 8ft rods 6ft apart using one continuous #6 bare copper wire.

Got a quick question on this. My panel is already installed and passed inspection, just curious. When they say continuous do they mean loop? Meaning, should my ground wire go Panel-#1Rod-#2Rod-Panel, or just a straight shot from Panel-#1Rod-#2Rod?

 

[77cj]

I agree, very good advice. Prompt and accurate without making us DIY guys feel like idiots.

I agree, this was my first question to this community and very nice experience.

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[pattenp]

One piece of wire with no splices. Your second example.

Got a quick question on this. My panel is already installed and passed inspection, just curious. When they say continuous do they mean loop? Meaning, should my ground wire go Panel-#1Rod-#2Rod-Panel, or just a straight shot from Panel-#1Rod-#2Rod?

 

[Aceman]

I saw couple debates on this but can you run romex on top of horizontal 2x6s around perimeter (between posts and tin)

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Yes you can.

I disagree, you won't be able to get your 1.25" clearance. 300.4(D) is pretty clear on this.

 

[pattenp]

I'm not sure what his clearance will be from a nailing surface but pointing out the 1.25 inch requirement to an outer edge is good info for him to have.

I disagree, you won't be able to get your 1.25" clearance. 300.4(D) is pretty clear on this.

 

[rv245]

Not to steal the thread, but just a quick question as I stumbled on the thread. My son bought a house with a garage this pass February. Not a 100% sure but I think both the house and garage only have one grounding rod each. Will this cause a problem having only one rod? Will have to check it out next time we go up to his place. Thanks

 

[Aceman]

If he's trying to run on the top of an 1.5" wide 2x6 there is no way for him to get the 1.25" clearance away from the outside tin and the screws anchoring it to the 2x6.

 

[pattenp]

I assume the garage is detached. But having one ground rod is not a big deal. Newer code requires the resistance to earth to be no more than 25 ohms so the standard has become to just install two rods rather than trying to prove the 25 ohms or less.

Not to steal the thread, but just a quick question as I stumbled on the thread. My son bought a house with a garage this pass February. Not a 100% sure but I think both the house and garage only have one grounding rod each. Will this cause a problem having only one rod? Will have to check it out next time we go up to his place. Thanks

 

[pattenp]

What you are saying is very true. I wasn't sure what the 2X6 was so that's why I just commented generally that the wire needs to be held away from nailing surfaces.

If he's trying to run on the top of an 1.5" wide 2x6 there is no way for him to get the 1.25" clearance away from the outside tin and the screws anchoring it to the 2x6.

 

[Norcal]

Not to steal the thread, but just a quick question as I stumbled on the thread. My son bought a house with a garage this pass February. Not a 100% sure but I think both the house and garage only have one grounding rod each. Will this cause a problem having only one rod? Will have to check it out next time we go up to his place. Thanks

If it was done before the requirement for 25 Ohms of resistance or less, or driving a 2nd rod, no problem at all, the NEC is not retroactive, if codes were retroactive we would tearing buildings down every 3 years or bringing them up to current codes.

If done after the requirement, it does not comply, doubt it would be hard to add one but would not lose any sleep over it.