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utilities to barn

Diesel Dan

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Rounding up supplies and looking for ideas of what too add, all services buried.
Here is what I have so far:
1) 2-2-2-4AL MH feed in 2" PVC conduit
2) 1/2" direct bury natural gas line
3) 3/4" PEX water line

What kinds of cable would I need for cable TV, computer and intercom?
RG6 for cable but is there a direct bury difference?
CAT5 for the intercom?

Thanks.
 
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Charles (in GA)

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What is the distance you are running? Do you have cable internet with a cable modem in the house? If so, you will need to run a Cat 5 to the garage for the internet.

Ethernet can only push a signal about 100 meters/328 ft which is primarily why I ask the distance. You cable also has a limited distance it can push a signal. My house is about 300 ft off the street, and the cable people had to put a booster in the middle of the yard to get the signal to the house.

Charles
 

theoldwizard1

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MHF does not require a conduit underground. It DOES require a conduit above ground and inside of buildings. Use a schedule 80 sweep where it transitions from below ground to above ground. Schedule 40 will not hold up to a string trimmer.

If you already have the 2" conduit, keep it and use it for the low voltage. Make sure to leave a pull cord in the tube.

Charles is right on the money about the other stuff. Cat5e for Ethernet (300' max). It is the most cost effective. Cat6 would be a bit better (more resistant to rough handling) but it is a lot more $$$ ! Cat6 use 22AWG wire while Cat3, Cat5 and Cat5e use 24AWG. Depending on the distance, you may have to go with heavier gauge wire for an intercom, or at least use the each pair as 1 wire.

You should use direct bury wire even inside of a conduit because conduits are never 100% waterproof.
 
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Diesel Dan

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What is the distance you are running?
House is about 90' from the road and barn another 90' from house.
Do you have cable internet with a cable modem in the house?
Yes, we have cable internet and not DSL.

Use a schedule 80 sweep where it transitions from below ground to above ground.
There will be no above ground portion for the electric, just the nat. gas line. There are multiple 2" risers through the garage floor for utilities.

If I don't run the MHF in conduit the whole length what types of fittings are there to seal it to the 2" stub going through the basement wall?


So 2 Cat5e runs for the cable ethernet, intercom and how about the RG6 in case of a future satellite dish?
Oh yeah, can't forget the old fashioned phone line. We live in an area with poor cell reception, in fact a younger guy down the road cancelled his cell phone and went back to a land line.
 

CNGsaves

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Sorry but 1/2" natural gas for 90 feet will be virtually worthless unless you have tiny demand on other end.

What NG appliances are in the barn?? What Btu??

Is NG inlet pressure the typical 7 to 8 inch water column (ie 1/2 psi) ?? Or will you have high pressure and another regulator at barn??
 
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Diesel Dan

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Sorry but 1/2" natural gas for 90 feet will be virtually worthless unless you have tiny demand on other end.

What NG appliances are in the barn?? What Btu??

Is NG inlet pressure the typical 7 to 8 inch water column (ie 1/2 psi) ?? Or will you have high pressure and another regulator at barn??

Sorry about that.
It is 1.25x.099(aka 1") and feeding a furnace of about 100K BTU. It will be coming off a 1" BIP main run in the house.
 

Sureshot

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Run air line. Doesn't even matter the size you can put a receiver tank on the end if needed. You can still fill a tire or run a nailer and it is cheap.
 
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Diesel Dan

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Run air line. Doesn't even matter the size you can put a receiver tank on the end if needed. You can still fill a tire or run a nailer and it is cheap.
Nah, have a 60 gallon 5hp single stage compressor for the shop and a portable 5 gallon unit for the attached garage. That is something to consider if you don't have multiple compressors however.
 

wyliesdiesels

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No one else has asked this:

What are your loads in the pole barn? Compressor(yes u mentioned this), welder(TIG?), AC, etc.?
I would put even direct bury wire in conduit. That way, if u decide to change/upsize the wire in the future, you wont have to dig the trench again!
 

theoldwizard1

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If I don't run the MHF in conduit the whole length what types of fittings are there to seal it to the 2" stub going through the basement wall?
Non-professional answer.

First, make sure that the grade carries surface water away from the wall.

Second, make sure there good drainage against the wall down to a weeping tile system (or at least a lower point).

Third, keep the hole through the wall small and as high as reasonable. Put a piece of conduit through the basement wall and connected to a pull elbow on the inside. Caulk the conduit to the concrete/block wall before inserting the conduit and finish caulk both the inside and out side. After you have run the wire and are happy, clean and caulk the inside (through the pulling elbow) and outside of the conduit. If you have to, you can always dig the the caulk out for any repair. (If it was me, I would drill a 1/8" weep hole in the lowest point of the conduit, just in case !)

... how about the RG6 in case of a future satellite dish?
Absolutely

Oh yeah, can't forget the old fashioned phone line. We live in an area with poor cell reception,
A lot of commercial installations are using Cat3 or Cat5 for phone line. For this long of a run I think I would want to use old fashioned 22-4 solid.

Having a conduit for low-voltage allows easy future upgrades.
 
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2ManyProjects

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Rounding up supplies and looking for ideas of what too add, all services buried.
Here is what I have so far:
1) 2-2-2-4AL MH feed in 2" PVC conduit

As Wylie alluded to, there's no way to know if this will be adequate until and unless we know the loads you're planning to run from it. But FWIW, given the 90-foot (one-way) distance you later mentioned, that should be good for up to about 125 Amps; if we presume another 10 feet on each end to account for the vertical segments and similar, make that about 100 Amps.

2) 1/2" direct bury natural gas line
3) 3/4" PEX water line

Not my wheelhouse.

What kinds of cable would I need for cable TV, computer and intercom?
RG6 for cable but is there a direct bury difference?

RG-6 will likely be adequate for the TV feed; but if you want to keep signal losses to the absolute minimum, go with RG-11.

The computer will require Ethernet (i.e., CAT-5/CAT-5e/CAT-6/CAT-6A), unless you plan to get by on WiFi (which I do NOT recommend, particularly over that distance). Even presuming conduit, I would use outdoor-rated cable, such as:

http://www.monoprice.com/Product?p_id=8115
81151.jpg


CAT5 for the intercom?

This will depend on the intercom. Check it's specs to see what it wants. But if CAT-5 will work, so too will CAT-6; so you can simply use more of that same spool cited above (but of course, mark it at each end when you do the pull, so you don't get confused later as to which cable is which -- you DON'T want to be cross-connecting these very different things!).


What is the distance you are running? Do you have cable internet with a cable modem in the house? If so, you will need to run a Cat 5 to the garage for the internet.

He'd need that anyway.

Ethernet can only push a signal about 100 meters/328 ft which is primarily why I ask the distance.

He's well within that limit. But unless he goes to CAT-6A (NOT just CAT-6) cable, he's pushing his luck with respect to 10GBASE-T, if he ever gets around to upgrading to that. Either way, the best thing he can do to avoid future problems is run the Ethernet cable well away from any other lines (i.e., NOT in the same conduit).

You cable also has a limited distance it can push a signal. My house is about 300 aft off the street, and the cable people had to put a booster in the middle of the yard to get the signal to the house.

SOMETHING is not right there. If your cable provider needed a booster amp just to cover a 300-foot run to the house, the signal strength on their main lines is nowhere near adequate. And if that's the case, howinhell are they going to service the next customer down the road?


Cat5e for Ethernet (300' max). It is the most cost effective. Cat6 would be a bit better (more resistant to rough handling) but it is a lot more $$$ !

Not so much any more, now that it has become more common. The example I cited above is pricier than most, and even it is only about $0.15/foot.

Cat6 use 22AWG wire

Sometimes; not always.

House is about 90' from the road and barn another 90' from house.

Yes, we have cable internet and not DSL.
So 2 Cat5e runs for the cable ethernet, intercom and how about the RG6 in case of a future satellite dish?

You're going to need the RG-6 (or RG-11) for the TV anyway. Once your incoming cable from the street hits the router/interface box supplied by the CableCo, the TV and internet (and 'phone) services run on completely separate lines/networks from there on out. One possible exception: If -- and ONLY "if" -- you have dedicated VOIP telephone sets (a.k.a. "terminals"), you can run these off your hardwired computer LAN, pretty much anywhere that LAN goes (including to the garage/shop/barn). But the more "normal" setup is to bring the house's conventional ("POTS") telephone wiring together at that above-mentioned router/interface box, and use plain old analog telephone sets from there on out.

 
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Diesel Dan

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First off, thanks for all the input and ideas.
It is nice having people to bounce ideas off, wife is getting tired of me talking to myself.:sad:

No one else has asked this:

What are your loads in the pole barn? Compressor(yes u mentioned this), welder(TIG?), AC, etc.?
I would put even direct bury wire in conduit. That way, if u decide to change/upsize the wire in the future, you wont have to dig the trench again!
Conduit for any future repairs/upgrades was my thinking as well.
Loads in barn? The kids and "new" friends?:lol_hitti
1) 5hp compressor(220v)
2) 2 post lift (220v)
3) 110v furnace
4) Lights-12, 4' dual bulb fixtures T8/T5, haven't bought any yet.
5) A/C? Maybe a 30K BTU wall unit(110v)
6) Welder? Some dirtbag stole my 110V Hobart MIG welder last year. No TIG, I'll put in a extra 30 or 50A plug "just in case".
The main panel(sub panel) I purchased is a SquareD OC line 100A with 20 slots. Have the 2 ground rods as well.

First, make sure that the grade carries surface water away from the wall.

Second, make sure there good drainage against the wall down to a weeping tile system (or at least a lower point).
That is easier said than done on that side/corner of the house. Goes from a full basement to a crawl space and then there is a entryway on slab. I want to redo all the footer drains someday but can't attack that project until I install the new septic system.

As Wylie alluded to, there's no way to know if this will be adequate until and unless we know the loads you're planning to run from it. But FWIW, given the 90-foot (one-way) distance you later mentioned, that should be good for up to about 125 Amps; if we presume another 10 feet on each end to account for the vertical segments and similar, make that about 100 Amps.
Wall-wall is about 82' and the sub-panel is directly above the conduit in garage so only 4' for that and I'm figuring right around 100' total run.


2) 1/2" direct bury natural gas line
3) 3/4" PEX water line

Not my wheelhouse.
The gas line is 1", not 1/2 like I first posted.
 

pattenp

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What are you referring to when you say 125 amps? The 2-2-2-4 AL MHF can only be over current protected up to 90 amps. Sorry if I'm missing something.

As Wylie alluded to, there's no way to know if this will be adequate until and unless we know the loads you're planning to run from it. But FWIW, given the 90-foot (one-way) distance you later mentioned, that should be good for up to about 125 Amps; if we presume another 10 feet on each end to account for the vertical segments and similar, make that about 100 Amps.
 
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schmelpboy

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House is about 90' from the road and barn another 90' from house.

Yes, we have cable internet and not DSL.

There will be no above ground portion for the electric, just the nat. gas line. There are multiple 2" risers through the garage floor for utilities.

If I don't run the MHF in conduit the whole length what types of fittings are there to seal it to the 2" stub going through the basement wall?


So 2 Cat5e runs for the cable ethernet, intercom and how about the RG6 in case of a future satellite dish?
Oh yeah, can't forget the old fashioned phone line. We live in an area with poor cell reception, in fact a younger guy down the road cancelled his cell phone and went back to a land line.

I have a barn on my property exactly the same distance from my house as yours. For internet, I did run Cat5e underground...However, I've never used it. My wireless modem is on the 2nd floor of my house, and the signal easily transmits that distance, so I've never had to directly connect. Same with intercom; I bought a wireless one, all you need is an electrical hookup to power it, the wireless should reach that distance. Everything I have hooked up has no signaling problems, no signal loss, etc at 95 feet. I would assume that unless you have lots of trees between your barn and the wireless router, you should be just fine. But if you have other reasoning for running internet and intercom underground, you won't have any real problems with cat5e. But, like others said, cat6 is better....if you want to spend the money. In a few years, it'll be cheaper than cat5e and there will be cat7....that's just how home projects go....
 

jackrabbit

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Have you considered running fiber to the barn? You can get some multi-mode (MM) fiber with SC connectors already terminated from lanshack.com for really cheap. They even sell it with the pulling assembly already installed. Then you can get some fiber to Ethernet converters (UTP to Multimode Fiber) for cheap as well and not have to worry about line distance at all.

I would recommend getting a 4-pair (8 fibers cable). That way you can run multiple signals and have a spare in case you break one.

You can get more information here. http://www.lanshack.com/Fiber-Optic-C7.aspx
 

codename47

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Just a shout out for monoprice... I've used them a lot for CAT6 and the cables are well made and work as advertised.
 

wyliesdiesels

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.....But FWIW, given the 90-foot (one-way) distance you later mentioned, that should be good for up to about 125 Amps; if we presume another 10 feet on each end to account for the vertical segments and similar, make that about 100 Amps.

presuming conduit, I would use outdoor-rated cable, such as:

http://www.monoprice.com/Product?p_id=8115
81151.jpg

Huh? Not sure what your getting at with 125amps being good over a 90' distance. With what size wire? huh :dunno:

And I wouldnt run just ANY outdoor rated wire underground. Gel filled CAT5e, aka 'slime wire', is what SHOULD be used for underground environments, especially conduits, which are likely to fill up with water. It is a b*tch to work with, however! Dont forget the gloves!

http://www.primuscable.com/store/p/...Ethernet-Cable-for-Networking-1000-Black.aspx

is.aspx


Have you considered running fiber to the barn? You can get some multi-mode (MM) fiber with SC connectors already terminated from lanshack.com for really cheap. They even sell it with the pulling assembly already installed. Then you can get some fiber to Ethernet converters (UTP to Multimode Fiber) for cheap as well and not have to worry about line distance at all.

I would recommend getting a 4-pair (8 fibers cable). That way you can run multiple signals and have a spare in case you break one.

You can get more information here. http://www.lanshack.com/Fiber-Optic-C7.aspx

Unless, the OP has the tools, fiber is expensive to splice and and terminate. We do fiber splicing and terminating and the machine just to splice was $5000-$6000. Im sure theres less expensive models but not anywhere near a price thats low enough to justify making a few splices or terminations worth while.
 
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2ManyProjects

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What are you referring to when you say 125 amps? The 2-2-2-4 AL MHF can only be over current protected up to 90 amps. Sorry if I'm missing something.

No, you are quite correct. When I was writing that post, I got so focused on re-jiggering my standard voltage drop equation to solve for "I", that I just completely zoned out on the 90A max ampacity. Sorry for any confusion.

I have a barn on my property exactly the same distance from my house as yours. For internet, I did run Cat5e underground...However, I've never used it. My wireless modem is on the 2nd floor of my house, and the signal easily transmits that distance, so I've never had to directly connect.

Wireless can be "convenient"; but that's just about the only thing it has going for it (besides tons of marketing hype). Hard-wired Ethernet will ALWAYS be faster, more reliable, and more secure.

Have you considered running fiber to the barn?

"Never say never", and all that; but at the distances he's dealing with, Fiber seems like gross overkill, and far more trouble and expense than it is worth. If he pulls the right sort of copper cable now, while he's pulling everything else, he'll be good to go for up to 10 Gbit/sec. networking. Hard to imagine him ever needing more than that for "casual" use; but then, there is that infamous Bill Gates quote about "640K ought to be enough for anybody.").

Huh? Not sure what your getting at with 125amps being good over a 90' distance. With what size wire? huh :dunno:

See above.

 

jeffmoss26

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The wire you posted from Monoprice is NOT direct burial wire. It's for use overhead, that's why it has the attached messenger wire.
You would need gel filled cable to run underground.
 

jeffmoss26

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I have a barn on my property exactly the same distance from my house as yours. For internet, I did run Cat5e underground...However, I've never used it. My wireless modem is on the 2nd floor of my house, and the signal easily transmits that distance, so I've never had to directly connect. Same with intercom; I bought a wireless one, all you need is an electrical hookup to power it, the wireless should reach that distance. Everything I have hooked up has no signaling problems, no signal loss, etc at 95 feet. I would assume that unless you have lots of trees between your barn and the wireless router, you should be just fine. But if you have other reasoning for running internet and intercom underground, you won't have any real problems with cat5e. But, like others said, cat6 is better....if you want to spend the money. In a few years, it'll be cheaper than cat5e and there will be cat7....that's just how home projects go....

There is no official Cat 7, they never ratified it as a standard. There will be a Cat 8 though.
 
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Diesel Dan

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OK so for now I'm going to bury two 2" PVC runs, one with the MHF and one empty with a pull rope for low voltage stuff. Then there is the 3/4" pex water line and 1" pex gas line.

The gas line trench will be as far apart as possible, limited space between garage and above ground pool.
 
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Diesel Dan

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Question for mounting the sub panel.
The inside of the barn is going to be finished off with ribbed steel, where to ground the barn steel? Ground bar in panel or ground rods?
Sub panel, can it be mounted to the tin interior? The panel will have a 2" pvc from the bottom as the feed and two 1.5" PVC for the wire outlets going up through the ceiling.

Have received differing answers on this so far.
 

wyliesdiesels

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Question for mounting the sub panel.
The inside of the barn is going to be finished off with ribbed steel, where to ground the barn steel? Ground bar in panel or ground rods?
Sub panel, can it be mounted to the tin interior? The panel will have a 2" pvc from the bottom as the feed and two 1.5" PVC for the wire outlets going up through the ceiling.

Have received differing answers on this so far.

I guess no one noticed your questions awhil back...

I would connect the building steel to ground bar in the panel. Its a shorter path than the ground rods going back to the panel and u want the path to be a low impedance one, though connecting at the rods is probably close to the same.

Yes the panel can be mounted to the tin. Doing this also essentially bonds the building steel since the panel enclosure is grounded.

And FYI, make sure your neutral bar(s) are insulated/isolated from the panel enclosure and that theyre not bonded to the ground bar.
 

BFBOB

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For ethernet, Cat6 will go farther than Cat5 because it's a bit bigger: 23 ga vs 24 ga. Not much, but it can make the difference, especially when running POE devices.
Cat6 also carries wider bandwidth, but for most networks that doesn't matter (although that is changing!)
 

wyliesdiesels

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For ethernet, Cat6 will go farther than Cat5 because it's a bit bigger: 23 ga vs 24 ga. Not much, but it can make the difference, especially when running POE devices.
Cat6 also carries wider bandwidth, but for most networks that doesn't matter (although that is changing!)

Negative batman. CAT5e and CAT6 have the same maximum 'allowed' distance which is 100m or 330'. Now i have ran cables longer than that without issues but when it comes to PoE devices, lengths over that usually does have issues due to voltage drop and lower power delivered to the device.
 

BFBOB

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Allowed distance takes into account bandwidth. IF you only need the bandwidth of Cat5 or less, using Cat6 will give you a bit more distance. (notice the technical term "bit") :rolleyes2

Can't wait for Cat8. Another :rant: analyzer.
 
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