attn. dewalt: how to keep and make your cordless users happy

[DpSyChO]

Maybe an adapter will be available soon?
http://for-sale.yowcow.com/listing/30344728/
I'm in the same boat as others, do not want to change out all 18V tools at once, but would start with a battery pack/charger combo or some sort of tool I dont have that includes two batteries and charger.

 

[sk farmer]

Maybe an adapter will be available soon?
http://for-sale.yowcow.com/listing/30344728/
I'm in the same boat as others, do not want to change out all 18V tools at once, but would start with a battery pack/charger combo or some sort of tool I dont have that includes two batteries and charger.

that guy has the right idea but it looks like kind of a one off hack job. it seems like it is just a slightly modified 18 volt battery. my vision would be of something a little more low profile that would allow the 20 volt pack to sit somewhat closer to the tool.

thanks for sharing the link. have you contacted him?

 

[DpSyChO]

Not yet, may try to find out if he can offer more info on it.

 

[ADSR]

Maybe an adapter will be available soon?
http://for-sale.yowcow.com/listing/30344728/
I'm in the same boat as others, do not want to change out all 18V tools at once, but would start with a battery pack/charger combo or some sort of tool I dont have that includes two batteries and charger.

Hack job or not, that's cool. I knew the 18v days were over and sold all mine. Milwaukee fuel is great! Piss on dewalt for boning the 18v guys.

 

[GSteg]

If Snap On can do it, Dewalt can too. Well, probably not since they don't want people hanging onto their older 18v tools.

http://store.snapon.com/Snap-on-174-Battery-Chargers-Adaptor-Battery-Slide-on-P644498.aspx

And yes, I've used this with the Snap On lithium battery. DC motors in most drills/impacts are not picky.

 

[sk farmer]

If Snap On can do it, Dewalt can too. Well, probably not since they don't want people hanging onto their older 18v tools.

http://store.snapon.com/Snap-on-174-Battery-Chargers-Adaptor-Battery-Slide-on-P644498.aspx

And yes, I've used this with the Snap On lithium battery. DC motors in most drills/impacts are not picky.

that would be the ticket. i think the dewalt could even be a little more compact and streamlined

with 3d printers and the like i know one could be made i bet they could sell the **** out of them. people are always trying to raise money for some sort of widget on kick start. i would plunk down cash for a decently done adapter right now. hell i might even throw some real cash to someone to get it up and running.

 

[Greatbear]

Actually, DeWalt's refusal to make an adapter for the old 18V line is simply marketing. True, most of the "pure" LiIon tools like the 20V, the M18 Milwaukees, Bosch 18V, etc have some form of electronics in the tool that communicate back and forth to the battery pack for temp and usage extremes safety, but there's no reason an "adapter" can't be made to interface the new with the old. Why? It already exists, though in a packaged form. The LiIon 18V XRP stem pack for the legacy 18V tools has this circuit built in. The XRP LiIon pack has 10 18650 cells in a 2 cells in parallel/5 cells (pairs) in series (2P5S) arrangement identical to the 20V Max "large" battery pack with circuitry built to fit inside the legacy "stem" which originally contained one of the original spec NiCd cells for cell protection. The other difference is the need for the special "universal" yellow LiIon/NiMH/NiCd chargers for charging. The charging process has to be strictly monitored and the old two/three-terminal NiCd interface can't hack it. A magnet inside the LiIon 18V pack beside the stem trips a switch in the charger and changes the function of the third terminal normally used for the cell temp sensor used in the NiCd packs. This allows the increased communication to happen between the pack and the charger. In simpler terms, it's far easier to operate the tools from a "converted" pack then it is to charge them, since charging of ANY LiIon pack needs strict controls of initial current and terminal voltage or there will be fireworks.

It is very possible to make a fairly simple adapter to operate the tools from the 20V packs with just a current limiter to prevent too much current pulled from the pack and a voltage cutoff to shut down the tool when the battery is discharged too far. The additional terminals on the 20V packs help with this information for cell protection. Charging is another matter, but the solution is simple. You can come up with a circuit that interfaces to the various cell protection circuits in the 20V battery and triggers the needed universal DeWalt charger, but this delves deeper into their proprietary technologies. The adapter can be made rather "dumb", only allowing the tool to be operated from the pack, in order to charge, you have to use the modern charger for 20V. Simple solution there, minimal $ outlay for the user for the charger. You needed a different charger for the LiIon XRP packs anyway, if you never moved up from NiCd, you'd still need the battery and charger in LiIon.

Those who have LiIon 18V Makita tools will notice that most of the tools have only two big terminals connecting to the battery and nothing else. Makita tool electronics are rather unsophisticated for many of the simpler tools, there's only a low voltage cutout built into the speed control. Many of the tools don't even have an overload circuit; stall the tool and keep your finger on the trigger and the magic smoke escapes. It would be easier to adapt a Makita 18V pack to the DeWalt 18V tools than would the 20V Max line. You'd still need a Makita charger.

In short, DeWalt could very easily make a nice, slim adaptor to slide onto the new packs and plug into the old tools. The problem here is it doesn't sell new tools, and that's what they are in business to do. If some third party were to make something like it for the greater tool marketplace, DeWalt will send their team of yellow-and-black suited lawyers to shut you down, citing some breach of patents and IP in their designs. Keeping all those 20 year old tools that have been working perfectly and continue to do so for another 20 years as long as there are batteries available is something none of these manufacturers want. Cordless is their cash cow, and that's why you see all the feature and tech push there. Corded tools **** the hind teat, because once they are sold, there's no more reason for the user to interface with the company with that tool unless it needs replacement. Batteries conveniently die in a few years, and unless you want paperweights, most people buy batteries. In some cases it's cheaper to buy a new tool with the batteries, charger and case than it is to buy the two batteries alone, or some small amount more for the kit vs. batteries. Why is that? Guess.

 

[Ign]

In short, DeWalt could very easily make a nice, slim adaptor to slide onto the new packs and plug into the old tools. The problem here is it doesn't sell new tools, and that's what they are in business to do. If some third party were to make something like it for the greater tool marketplace, DeWalt will send their team of yellow-and-black suited lawyers to shut you down, citing some breach of patents and IP in their designs.

You better believe it. They won't even let you sell a Harbor Freight drill on ebay:

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/gene...o-dewalt-tells-ebay-pull-one-my-auctions.html

 

[MN4x4]

When Dewalt did the 20 Volt Max thing, I knew this would happen and I swore off DeWalt. The last 18 Volt tool I bought is the last DeWalt tool I'll ever own. And that includes their corded tools as well. I refuse to support a company that won't support me.

I am now the proud owner of over a dozen M12 tools - and buying more regularly. And I am looking at the M18 Fuel stuff to replace my Dewalt when the time comes, but so far there's no hurry.

 

[ajchien]

You better believe it. They won't even let you sell a Harbor Freight drill on ebay:

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/gene...o-dewalt-tells-ebay-pull-one-my-auctions.html

Darn you. Why is it that every time someone links to pirate, It's some ridiculously epic 20+ page thread that's absolutely nuts that I spend 45 minutes reading?

 

[sk farmer]

even the guy who says it can be easily done says it can't be done. i think it can. the beauty of dewalt is that everyone who uses power tools knows what it is. go to the battery stores like batteries plus. they have knockoff 18 volt dewalt batteries they sell, why doesn't dewalt shut them down?

put a picture of drill with the name blocked off and avoid saying dewalt anyplace on the package. everybody will know exactly what it fits because dewalt is the most well known 18 volt platform out there.

 

[sk farmer]

You better believe it. They won't even let you sell a Harbor Freight drill on ebay:

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/gene...o-dewalt-tells-ebay-pull-one-my-auctions.html

you say it can't be done becuase you reference a thread from 2004 about proprietary colors. make the damn thing red, purple green or even pink for all i care.

wait, make it clear so we can see what is inside.

if you make it a different color and avoid the name i doubt there is one damn thing they can do about it.

someone stated that dewalt just wants to sell tools, no ****. i want to buy tools, that is how the deal works. i just want the ability to get some more life out of my old ones and this would let me do it.

i use exactly 2 battery platforms the dewalt and a no name cordless grease gun and trust me if dewalt had a cordless grease gun it would only be one.

 

[srmofo]

i respect your opinion but that is mumbo jumbo from the mfg. the tools run on dc voltage. when you charge that battery it may take some differant circitry but when that tool is running it does not care if you use an 18 volt battery from dewalt, a 12 volt and 6 volt car battery hooked together or a slug of dc batteries zip tied together as long as you feed it power in the right voltage.

i dare anyone to prove to me how 18 volts of dc is differant coming from any battery to the next. i will stand corrected if they do.

stuey, on your sight, you just promoted how makita is making an adapter to use two 18 volts to power a 36 volt tool. i have also seen a setup that uses an adapter with a short cord hooked to a large battery pack used to power cordless tools. it was marketed to fire and rescue for longer run times in emergency situations.the battery was designed to be carried in a bag or backpack.

i also don't get why noone would buy them. why would they have to be expensive? it is hands down proven that the most expensive part of any system is the battery and charger. i think you are wrong if noone would invest 30, 40 or 50 dollars to make hundred if not thousands of dollars of tools compatable with newer technology.

if someone is in the market to change platforms this adapter would make them "more" likely to stay with dewalt. how do you put a price on that? i doubt dewalt would "lose" money on an accessory that make their tools more compatable than less compatable.

I'm on my phone so I can't write up a long winded response so I'll keep this short.

Amps and internal resistance of the battery packs could be very different but still carry the same voltage. Higher amps of older packs (if they are) could destroy new tools. Lower amps (if they are) could cause poor performance on newer tools.

I'm not stating this is the reason just that it might be a reason. IMHO though its probably just a marketing ploy

 

[sk farmer]

thanks for the response srmofo. i may be totally wrong and please, someone correct me if i am wrong.

this discussion has never been about putting an old style battery on a 20 volt tool. those that bring it or the posibility don't understand the concept i am trying to promote. think of it as a 1/4 male to 3/8 female socket adapter. it only works one way, adapting the 1/4 socket to a 3/8 drive tool, not a 3/8 socket to a 1/4 drive tool. you would need the exact opposite type adapter.

dewalt themselves have used differant amperage packs in the lineup. aren't the compact batteries lower amps while the standards are higher? i can't say i have ever replaced a vehicle battery with one of a lower amperage rating. always more and sometimes significantly more with no issues. the battery can only give what the tool asks for or am i wrong?

i am not sure on the resistance issue. i really don't understand what you are getting at. it may have something to do with charging but again, this adapter idea was never meant to charge the packs. i understand that batteries need to be charged with the appropriate chargers so i don't see the issue.

 

[kythri]

dewalt themselves have used differant amperage packs in the lineup. aren't the compact batteries lower amps while the standards are higher? i can't say i have ever replaced a vehicle battery with one of a lower amperage rating. always more and sometimes significantly more with no issues. the battery can only give what the tool asks for or am i wrong?

I'm with you - how does higher amps in a pack harm a tool?

I'll repeat the same mantra as sk farmer, please correct me if I'm wrong, but, "longer life" battery packs are nothing more than higher amp batteries at the same voltage.

The tool draws what the tool wants - you can't "force feed" it more amps than it wants.

Too much voltage is a bad thing, but too much amperage? I don't think that this is a problem - flash back to an earlier post in this thread discussing powering tools off of a car battery. Those things are hundreds of amps.

18V DC is 18V DC, regardless of how it's being generated. At it's most basic, the tool needs a positive and a negative input to it.

Now, there's nothing that says that any manufacturer hasn't installed some kind of BS logic into a tool to identify "authentic" batteries and prohibit their use (much like HP tried to do with ink and toner cartridges, and got smacked down for it), but that's a whole different story.

DeWalt could be doing this with their new batteries - a bit of logic in the batteryblocking current unless it gets a "go" signal from it's counterpart in the tool.

Past that kind of situation, however, there's no technical reason why one can't adapt power from one 18V DC (or 20V DC) source into a tool that wants an 18V DC input.

 

[sk farmer]

thank you, kythri. if the amps were an issue than my truck with three large 12 volt batteries that supply thousands of amps should instantly vaporize the dome light that uses fractions of an amp when i open the door. instead if i leave the dome light on for a few days by accident it is no big deal.

 

[Ign]

Well..............even tho I think the question was answered by GreatBear in post #47...........I'll continue to say that I don't think analogies to vehicles are appropriate.

For one thing a vehicle has it's own charging system (the alternator, voltage regulator, etc) and is not really built to MAXIMIZE battery life because it's really not much of a concern when the vehicle is in use. OTOH cordless tool companies are trying hard to eek every last bit of performance out of their batteries, and so they are (at least allegedly) incorporating technology which allows the tool and battery to "talk" to each other.

Milwaukee's Redlink Plus would appear to be an example of this:
http://www.milwaukeetool.com/press-releases/milwaukee-fuels-the-next-generation-of-cordless

Hell even some of the older Makita stuff I recently used has a red light on the tool to tell you if you were pushing it too hard; I don't exactly what "technology" does that (it could be as crude as just looking for amp draw thru a particular circuit?).

That said, I don't think SK Farmer will be satsfied until someone tells him it is 100% possible, easily built with materials already in your house, hands him blueprints and a dozen prototype units. I jest. And YES, I'm sure it is possible. In fact, I have no doubt it could be done. Look at more "universal" platforms like computers and electronics; you can adapt serial to paralllel to USB................you can adapt proprietary Ipod to 3.5mm to RCA......................so yeah, something could be built. I think many others feel the same way: it is possible.

What we're saying is that asking Dewalt to build it is like asking GJ members to not get a thread about plastic bags closed LMAO!!! And the likelihood of the aftermarket pursuing it anytime soon is highly unlikely.

If you really want one, you'll need to find a friend who can do some plastic molding, then figure out the electronics yourself and go at it. Then you can make a few on the DL and hand them around to friends and family.

Uh oh...............is this thread next?? Well, IBTL.

 

[uart]

High guys, I'm late to this discussion and have only read a few posts, but hopefully I can contribute something.

1. Voltage is no problem. 18V Nicads are about 21.5 volts fully charged anyway. The "20V max" stuff and the old 18V nicads are 100% compatible in terms of voltage.

2. Amp hour rating differences don't matter (outside of different run times).

3. The newer Li-ion (20V max) packs do have more electronics integrated into them, to protect the cells from being overcharged or overheated. However this is a issue between the charger and the pack, not so much an issue between the tool and the pack. So the newer 20V max pack should have no problems powering an older 18V tool, provided that the old tool is of similar power rating (wattage) to the new tool.


The real problem is that the 20V max packs are completely incompatible with the old 18V nicad chargers. Sure you can easily charge the pack with the correct charger and then slip it into the adapter, and that would work fine. However the problem, and the reason why De Walt will never make or approve one, is that once you retrofit the battery to fit the old tool it will also fit the old charger. Then there's nothing you can do to stop someone trying to charge a new Li-Ion pack on a old nicad charger and causing a fire and/or explosion.

 

[kythri]

That said, I don't think SK Farmer will be satsfied until someone tells him it is 100% possible, easily built with materials already in your house, hands him blueprints and a dozen prototype units. I jest. And YES, I'm sure it is possible. In fact, I have no doubt it could be done. Look at more "universal" platforms like computers and electronics; you can adapt serial to paralllel to USB................you can adapt proprietary Ipod to 3.5mm to RCA......................so yeah, something could be built. I think many others feel the same way: it is possible.

What we're saying is that asking Dewalt to build it is like asking GJ members to not get a thread about plastic bags closed LMAO!!! And the likelihood of the aftermarket pursuing it anytime soon is highly unlikely.

I believe he's challenging DeWalt's technobabble claims that it is technically or technologically impossible to adapt the battery.

We all know that DeWalt WON'T do it. I don't think anyone is trying to argue that. They have a short-sighted marketing mentality to it, and, like any other company, want to move you to the new product line today, rather than at some unspecified point in the future, therefore, you're screwed.

As I said, short-sighted. Brand loyalty is huge for many people, and that loyalty can easily go out the window when you realize that your huge brand investment is no longer supported.

The utter lack of attempt at a transition from the one line to the other gives the buyer more cause to look at an entirely different brand at that point.

 

[Ign]

As I said, short-sighted. Brand loyalty is huge for many people, and that loyalty can easily go out the window when you realize that your huge brand investment is no longer supported.

The utter lack of attempt at a transition from the one line to the other gives the buyer more cause to look at an entirely different brand at that point.

Did people who jumped on the 18V XRP bandwagon when it was fresh to market feel the same about people with previous DeWalt platforms? I doubt it.

It's just the end of an era and those are invested in the old stuff are now complaining. I don't blame them, I'll do the same thing when Milwaukee eventually abandons M12.

People use this as a reason to bash cordless tools but I've got old corded tools for which I can no longer get parts, period.

It's the way of the world, or our world at least. If you go buy the new '14 Silverado do you worry about the previous model-year owners?

If you bought a '97 F250/350 you had to know the writing was on the wall 'cause the '97 F150 was completely redesigned. Likewise if people are still buying NEW XRP tools they have to know they're investing in an outdated platform.

To choose a good cordless tool line you have to look for something you believe will be around a long time (like M12 IMO) but to expect it to be around FOREVER is just unrealistic. At some point you have to know you're gonna be "on your own" just as vehicle warranties come to end too.......but it doesn't mean you throw away the vehicle. It just means you'll have to order parts yourself, fix it yourself and look to the aftermarket (in this case for XRP battery pack knock-offs or rebuild them yourself).

I see nothing special happening here; a company is introducing a new line and those who like the old stuff are not happy. Happens everyday.

 

[kythri]

Nobdoy is "bashing" the tool, they're "bashing" the marketing situation.

Automobiles are a poor analogy, and undermine the point you're trying to make. Regardless of redesign of an automobile, the vast majority of my auto-related stuff (tools, accessories, supplies, etc.) are still going to work in the new one.

DeWalt has built it's reputation on being "better" than the competition, and part of that "better" has been argued here a number of times in regards to life of the tool.

Like I said - ending support for the platform, and not providing cross-compatibility with the new line when there's no technical reason prohibiting it lends weight to a user considering an entirely different platform.

Not once did I expect it to be around "forever" - simply that I agree with the notion that they could quite easily see MORE market share by providing that cross-compatibility in the form of battery adapters. Established users could buy new tools and use them with the old batteries, or buy new batteries for the old tools, and eventually, move into the new platform.

Ultimately, though, all of that is pointless, because what we were debating most recently was the technical ability, not the marketing feasibility, of a battery adapter.

I know exactly why DeWalt (or really, any other company) won't produce such an adapter. On paper, and perhaps traditionally in practice, the bottom line is better served by abandoning the old and bringing in the new. Sales are down on old power tools, and providing new battery technology didn't refresh those sales? Well, then, let's take the same old batteries, redesign them so they don't fit the old tools, and then let's take the same old tools, freshen them up a tiny bit, and sell them all over again.

 

[uart]

I know exactly why DeWalt (or really, any other company) won't produce such an adapter. On paper, and perhaps traditionally in practice, the bottom line is better served by abandoning the old and bringing in the new.

Sure there's a marketing advantage in that it encourages people to buy new sets, but there's also very much a technical reason as well.

What part of "if it fits the old tool then it's also going to fit the old charger" and "if it fits the old charger then someone is going to explode their Lithium batteries" don't you understand?

 

[kythri]

Sure there's a marketing advantage in that it encourages people to buy new sets, but there's also very much a technical reason as well.

What part of "if it fits the old tool then it's also going to fit the old charger" and "if it fits the old charger then someone is going to explode their Lithium batteries" don't you understand?

I guess that would be the part where they manufactured Ni-Cad batteries and chargers for the 18V line that the 18V Lithium-Ion batteries fit and could potentially explode.

You do know that there's a bunch of those old 18V chargers out there, right? And that at any time, people could plug Lithium-Ion batteries into them and cause the mass destruction and devastation you're worried about, yeah?

That's such a non-issue, it's laughable.

"DO NOT USE THIS ADAPTER TO CHARGE BATTERIES IN AN UNSUPPORTED CHARGER!" is almost verbatim to "DO NOT CHARGE BATTERIES IN AN UNSUPPORTED CHARGER!"

 

[uart]

You do know that there's a bunch of those old 18V chargers out there, right? And that at any time, people could plug Lithium-Ion batteries into them and cause the mass destruction and devastation you're worried about, yeah?

No, actually I didn't know that and I don't have any De Walt tools. But in general the way "DO NOT CHARGE BATTERIES IN AN UNSUPPORTED CHARGER!" is implemented is to have the chargers physically incompatible so that people have to go out of their way to do it wrong. I believe you, but it's pretty weird of De Walt to do it that way.

 

[kythri]

Actually, that's far from the general way. If you can plug a new battery into an old tool, you can plug it into an old charger. I believe you'll find this "issue" in just about any 18V/19.2V tool line.

Every single system out there that's implemented compatible Li-Ion or Li-Po batteries into an existing line uses the exact same form factor for that battery, otherwise, they would have obsoleted the old tools (kinda like what we're discussing with moving to the new 20V batteries and that new form factor).

I don't know which vendors are still selling Ni-Cad batteries alongside their Li-Ion/Li-Po batteries, and I don't know which ones are still selling the old Ni-Cad/Ni-MH chargers anymore. Most are selling the "dual chemistry" chargers that charge both styles of battery.

 

[uart]

The bit I don't understand is that most Li-Ion chargers need to monitor the inter-cell voltages and not just the terminal voltages, so there's a lot more connections to the charger. I'm not sure how they got around that in the 18V/19.2V Nicd/Li-ion stuff, but I assume that they would have added extra electronics to monitor/balance the cells so as to allow the Li-Ion pack to be three terminal and hence physically compatible with the nicad packs.

Look at the new 20v max packs though, they're not at all like that at all. They have all the intercell connections to the charger so it's much harder to make them physically compatible.

I would suggest that the older 18V Lithium packs must have had more electronics built into them to protect them in the case of a wrong charger, which the new ones don't have.

I can't imagine that if a manufacturer made it stupidly easy to just accidentally plug one of their battery packs into one of their chargers and cause fire or injury that they wouldn't get there arses sued, even if they had a warning not to do it.

 

[honcho]

Sure there's a marketing advantage in that it encourages people to buy new sets, but there's also very much a technical reason as well.

What part of "if it fits the old tool then it's also going to fit the old charger" and "if it fits the old charger then someone is going to explode their Lithium batteries" don't you understand?

Your concern about product liability for the charger is unwarranted because DeWalt already makes a Lithium Ion battery for the old 18V tools that requires a different charger. All the safety interlocks in the world can't stop people from doing stupid things.

While I believe it is technically feasible and economical to make an adapter, the bean counters at DeWalt have likely calculated that it's not the most profitable, revenue-enhancing route for the company to take. Furthermore, they likely believe that the new features like lighter weight and brushless motors will keep satisfy the marketplace. Who doesn't like "New & Improved"?

Oh well, like in most consumer goods we're at the mercy of the marketplace. A few intelligent consumers can't overcome the accountants and mass market demands that are endlessly scrutinized by the marketing departments of the world that attempt to figure out a way to separate consumers from their money.

 

[Ign]

Automobiles are a poor analogy, and undermine the point you're trying to make. Regardless of redesign of an automobile, the vast majority of my auto-related stuff (tools, accessories, supplies, etc.) are still going to work in the new one.

Not at all. The dashboard, fenders, glass, gauges, engine and on and on of '97 F150 will simply not fit or work in a '96 F150 (extensive custom fabricaction excepted).

DeWalt has built it's reputation on being "better" than the competition, and part of that "better" has been argued here a number of times in regards to life of the tool.

Perception I guess? I always felt Dewalt was never better than the competition, just has a "culture" of support among carpenters and is also quick to bring tools to market that don't really work well (the early 18V grinders one example) but wanted to have them in their line-up JUST to say they had them in their line-up. And Dewalt abandoned 36V stuff a LONG time ago. But I personally am not aware of this reputation of which you speak.

I know exactly why DeWalt (or really, any other company) won't produce such an adapter. On paper, and perhaps traditionally in practice, the bottom line is better served by abandoning the old and bringing in the new. Sales are down on old power tools, and providing new battery technology didn't refresh those sales? Well, then, let's take the same old batteries, redesign them so they don't fit the old tools, and then let's take the same old tools, freshen them up a tiny bit, and sell them all over again.

There ya go! We ARE in agreement!!

 

[uart]

All the safety interlocks in the world can't stop people from doing stupid things.

Yes, but what if you don't put in any safety interlocks and you make it stupidly easy to do the wrong thing! Surely that is something of concern.

Your concern about product liability for the charger is unwarranted because DeWalt already makes a Lithium Ion battery for the old 18V tools that requires a different charger.

I discussed that in the post above. The older 18V Lithium packs must have been a bridging measure to introduce the new Lithium technology to the older tools. And they must have had extra electronics and protection built into each pack in order to make them physically compatible. The new 20V max packs do not have this stuff incorporated in the pack, it's instead incorporated into the charger (as evidenced by the many extra connection between pack and charger). So when you talk of the old 18V stuff here you are not comparing apples with apples.

 

[PugetDude]

And, if only they made the adapter out of recycled plastic grocery bags...

 

[Bigplum]

I can't say for over there in America , but over here ( in england) the newer 18v stem type lion batteries will not fit in the older nicad / nihm chargers , they have additional ridges or blocks on the battery to prevent full insertion ,
So as long as the adaptors incorporated something similar , no miss charging could occur

 

[trainman1385]

Big Plum is right you cant charge and lithium ion in a nicad charger, but you can charge a nicad in a lithium ion charger. If dewalt won't make one. I will have my son design one and print it on a 3d printer . The 20 volt is nothing more than a glorified 18 volt lithium ion battery. As long as the batteries are charged on the correct charger no issues would or could ever exist. I will be rebuiliding my batteries when they die because there is no reason for me to quit using tools that work well.

 

[kythri]

Not at all. The dashboard, fenders, glass, gauges, engine and on and on of '97 F150 will simply not fit or work in a '96 F150 (extensive custom fabricaction excepted).

But these aren't parts that the average operator is regularly swapping in and out of the vehicle, like batteries on a tool.

That's why this is a bad analogy. The stuff that people DO swap out regularly? That's all common, or people make adapters for it to work (things like stereos, accessory outlets, bulbs, what not).

If I've got a sweet stereo in my '96, I can, in all but the most extreme of minority of cases, swap it into my new completely different '97.

 

[kythri]

The bit I don't understand is that most Li-Ion chargers need to monitor the inter-cell voltages and not just the terminal voltages, so there's a lot more connections to the charger. I'm not sure how they got around that in the 18V/19.2V Nicd/Li-ion stuff, but I assume that they would have added extra electronics to monitor/balance the cells so as to allow the Li-Ion pack to be three terminal and hence physically compatible with the nicad packs.

Which is why they tell us not to put that new battery into the old charger.

Look at the new 20v max packs though, they're not at all like that at all. They have all the intercell connections to the charger so it's much harder to make them physically compatible.

I would suggest that the older 18V Lithium packs must have had more electronics built into them to protect them in the case of a wrong charger, which the new ones don't have.

They definitely have some logic bits in them, but there's no protection from putting it in the wrong charger. Very much bad.

I can't imagine that if a manufacturer made it stupidly easy to just accidentally plug one of their battery packs into one of their chargers and cause fire or injury that they wouldn't get there arses sued, even if they had a warning not to do it.

It IS stupidly easy. I'm well-invested in the Ryobi 18V line-up. If I cared to go start a fire, and eat the expense of one of my old chargers and one of my Li-Ion batteries, I could go set up a webcam right now and let it start monitoring the inevitable overheat-swell-burst-explode-in-fiery-incineration cycle.

Instead, I make sure that I don't plug the wrong batteries into the wrong chargers. If anyone else is using my tools, and putting stuff away, I make crystal clear which batteries go into which chargers, or tell them to leave it alone and plug them in myself, so they don't go kaboom.

If the manufacturer was liable for something like that, then battery charger manufacturers would be liable for me charging a 6-volt battery on the 12-volt hi-amp setting, and blowing that up.

 

[kythri]

Yes, but what if you don't put in any safety interlocks and you make it stupidly easy to do the wrong thing! Surely that is something of concern.

I discussed that in the post above. The older 18V Lithium packs must have been a bridging measure to introduce the new Lithium technology to the older tools. And they must have had extra electronics and protection built into each pack in order to make them physically compatible. The new 20V max packs do not have this stuff incorporated in the pack, it's instead incorporated into the charger (as evidenced by the many extra connection between pack and charger). So when you talk of the old 18V stuff here you are not comparing apples with apples.

Honest question: How do you know what the old and new packs have? Have you disassembled them?

I'm also curious what "bridging measure" you're talking about. The Li-Ion or Li-Po cells output DC power, correct? They're just battery cells. In the Ryobi packs, they're 3.7V cylindrical cells, wired in series. Not sure of the actual size classification of them, but there's 5 of them in the pack, along with a circuit board to control the charge cycle (and control the "fuel gauge" if so equipped).

This isn't exactly rocket science. If they output DC power at a specified voltage, then the positive and the negative leads are applied to the DC motor, and it goes vrooooom.

The extra special circuitry/logic on the battery packs allows the pack to communicate with the newer charger, so that the charger shuts off the charge at a particular time, rather than continuing to overcharge.

 

[kythri]

I can't say for over there in America , but over here ( in england) the newer 18v stem type lion batteries will not fit in the older nicad / nihm chargers , they have additional ridges or blocks on the battery to prevent full insertion ,
So as long as the adaptors incorporated something similar , no miss charging could occur

How do they fit in the older, pre-Li-Ion tools, then?

I would think that any physical prevention from installation into a charger would equally prevent installation into a tool.

I can't speak to every brand out there, but there's nothing physically blocking me from installing my Ryobi Li-Ion batteries into my older Ni-Cad chargers.

I can't imagine there would be on other brands, either.

 

[DPDISXR4Ti]

The real problem is that the 20V max packs are completely incompatible with the old 18V nicad chargers. Sure you can easily charge the pack with the correct charger and then slip it into the adapter, and that would work fine.

I'm okay with investing in a new 20V charger if I have to, so really, this isn't a problem for me. So you see, there is revenue for Dewalt in this - I'd buy new 20V batteries and a charger, if only I could use the 20V batteries with my existing collection of 18V tools. And then there's future 20V tool revenue as I move forward as a happy Dewalt customer.

However the problem, and the reason why De Walt will never make or approve one, is that once you retrofit the battery to fit the old tool it will also fit the old charger. Then there's nothing you can do to stop someone trying to charge a new Li-Ion pack on a old nicad charger and causing a fire and/or explosion.

Keep in mind, what we're really talking about here is an adapter that allows you to use the newer 20V batteries in the older 18V tools. Yes, that would allow someone to try to charge a 20V battery in 18V charger, but I trust there would be sufficient warning labels indicating the consequences of such actions. That said, I wonder if it might actually charge okay, assuming of course that you had the later 18V charger which was updated for the 18V Li-on batteries.

 

[trainman1385]

I can use my lithium ion batteries in my nicad tools, all the batteries are is a power source as previously stated. I can also use my nicad abtteries in my lithium tools. All the lithium technology is in the charger which can charge both types of batteries. Think of the conversion as an extension cord only. I don't want or need my current batteries to work in the "new tools" It would be nice if Dewalt will allow someoens to sell their battery platform after they quit making it. or have something that could be installed into existing tools to accept the new 20 volt system that really is an 18 volt system.

 

[sk farmer]

an off the shelf brand new 18 volt lithium battery will fit in my approx. 1996 drill. i have done it 100's of times. i forget what it is but there is a tab or something in chargers and radios that will not allow the lithium batteries to fit. dewalt has built technology into that system. i would bet money that dewalt has designed more than one method of not allowing certain packs to fit in certain chargers.

i am glad this thread got bumped. it is still a very pertinant issue that seems to have some interest.

 

[kythri]

Such a tab would have to be on the battery, though - and such a tab that would prevent installation in an improper charger would also block installation on an older tool.

I'm going to have to talk to one of my subs who has a bunch of old+new DeWalt 18V stuff, and take a look at the stuff, because I don't see how they could work that.