DPDISXR4Ti
Well-known member
How do you even reply to this ad?
attn. dewalt: how to keep and make your cordless users happy
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How do you even reply to this ad?
DpSyChO
Well-known member
Not sure yet, still trying to figure that one out.
I need to look back in my history and see what page I linked to before that one to see if would offer an idea.
DpSyChO
Well-known member
Ding ding ding......My situation exactly.
I need to replace a cordless hammer drill. I currently have a few more 18V Dewalt tools so I'd stay with the Dewalt platform if it would make sense in the long run. The local Lowes and HD does not have in stock a 18V hammer drill.
My options are; (1) order an 18V hammer drill online (2) buy another brand online or from local home center (3) if I can source an 18V to 20V adapter, I would buy one of the new 20V tool/battery combos. This means I would be staying with Dewalt brand and means I would be replacing my other 18V tools with 20V as needed.
you are more than likely correct. i have items ranging from about 1996 to a couple years ago. i suppose i could inspect them again to tell for sure but i know a system is involved to not allow lithium batteries in older chargers and the older radio/chargers. all of the newer 18 volt radios and chargers are backwards compatable to ni-cad batteries that are still available.
Not dewalt ones, but yes I've disassembled laptop Li-ion packs and the multi-finger connectors (see attachment) are used on those to expose the individual cell voltages to the charger.
You can see these "fingers" pretty clearly on the attached image of a dewalt 20v max pack. Each of those "c1" ... "c4" are most likely the intermediate cell voltages from the four series interconnections between cells in a five individual cells in the pack.
I was just referring to them keeping this extra charging logic internally within the pack so that they could make them physically compatible and make dual chemistry chargers etc. Without the need to externally expose the intermediate cell voltages or other sensing information to the charger.
Because these Lithium based cells are much more prone to fire or explosion if overcharged they need more logic in the charger and/or pack to control the charging. One way or another the charging circuit needs to know the individual cell voltages (eg 3.9 or 4.0 etc volts) and not just the overall pack voltage (eg 19.5 o 20.0 etc volts). Otherwise if (or actually when) the individual cell capacities diverged you could have one cell overcharge and explode on the charger, even though the overall pack voltage was within spec.
Old nicad packs didn't need this. If one cell was much more fully charged than the others in the pack then the charger didn't know or care, it just proceeded to overcharge and slightly cook that cell while bringing the overall pack up to charge.
Nickle based cells are much more robust than Lithium. That's why they used much cruder chargers, purely because they *could* and get away with it. It would have added more cost overhead to do a similar thing and expose the intermediate connections in a nicad pack because there's a lot more of them, 14 for example in an 18V pack compared with just 4 in an 18V (or 20V max) Lithium pack. But if they did have the same technology in a Ni based charger as they do for Li then we'd be getting more like 8 to 10 years out of our nicad packs instead of 2 to 3. Seriously they would.
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so if what you are saying is correct and what i have suspected is that the smart capability is only for charging, not for usage. if so that would mean there would be no issues running an older tool with a 20 volt max battery.
Yes definitely. That's what I've being saying all along, usage is no problem, it's only charging that's an issue.
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I know if you overheat the batteries in the newer tools, they shut down the tool. Not sure if that's the battery or the tools job tho.
It might be different on other brand tools, but on both of my Li-ion drills there is only two connections (positive and negative main power terminals) between the battery and the tool. In this case the run time protection can *only* be in the battery.
Not sure about other brands though. Can someone take look a the 20V max stuff and tell us how many of those little finger contacts on the battery actually connect to the tool itself?
DpSyChO
Well-known member
Not sure yet, still trying to figure that one out.
I need to look back in my history and see what page I linked to before that one to see if would offer an idea.
Have not found contact info yet for the adapter I linked earlier.
I did find a similar Makita adapter:
Makita adapter
I emailed the seller and inquired about one for Dewalt, maybe he can source one if he is just a reseller or produce some if he makes them.
Edit, looked at sellers feedback and the Makita adapters is all he has sold.. a lot of them. Makes me think maybe he is making or having the adapters made.
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xurusaibobx
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am a little upset that the new 12v and 20v battery packs are made so cheap! one drop and the case cracks open due to the weak screw joints in the case. my rep told me the batteries would be covered then it changed to dewalt will replace the cases now its dewalt wont warranty these crack cases
DPDISXR4Ti
Well-known member
I traded messages with the guy who makes these and he has already looked into doing precisely what we have been discussing here, but there is a problem. Apparently the Dewalt Lithium Battery is rigged electronically to only work with the new Dewalt Lithium tools. I think the primary issue here is that the required (for Li-ion batteries) shut-off circuitry is in the Dewalt 20V tool rather than the battery.
If perhaps the Black & Decker 20V product line has the shut-off circuitry in the battery, then perhaps that might be the better choice here for an adapter. That would also open up cross-compatibility to some of the more consumer-ish products that don't exist in the Dewalt line-up.
honcho
Well-known member
That's interesting information. It means that the adapter would need to be "smart"--that is, it would need to have some circuitry to detect low voltage conditions and presumably circuitry to prevent using the adapter to attempt the dangerous condition of charging in the wrong charger.
After the recent resurrection of this topic, I made a mental note to be on the lookout for either a cheap used 20v Dewalt tool & battery so I could dissect them and experiment with a Frankenadapter.
DPDISXR4Ti
Well-known member
Doing some more digging, this thread confirms that the "20V" Black & decker and Dewalt product lines are incompatible...
http://dewaltownersgroup.com/index.php?topic=1038.0
As the Dewalt employee confirms, the primary issue is the location of the shut-off electronics, and for the Dewalt 20V stuff it's in the tool.
My best guess is that for the Black & Decker 20V line, the shut-off electronics are in the battery (same as for the Dewalt 18V Li-ion), and so this might be the better option for an adapter. This would also open us up to being able to use the B&D Consumer-oriented products (leaf blowers, etc), with the same battery.
http://dewaltownersgroup.com/index.php?topic=1038.0
As the Dewalt employee confirms, the primary issue is the location of the shut-off electronics, and for the Dewalt 20V stuff it's in the tool.
My best guess is that for the Black & Decker 20V line, the shut-off electronics are in the battery (same as for the Dewalt 18V Li-ion), and so this might be the better option for an adapter. This would also open us up to being able to use the B&D Consumer-oriented products (leaf blowers, etc), with the same battery.
drwheels
Well-known member
Dewalt wants you to buy new stuff like everyone says. The funny thing is kobalt 18, 20 and lithium interchange. Check it out at the store sometime.
DPDISXR4Ti
Well-known member
I imagine that there's some technology reason that justified putting the shut-off circuitry in the tool (rather than the battery), but in doing so they've killed off any reasonable means of making an adapter.
I think everyone else (Makita, Kobalt, Craftsman, Black & Decker, Porter-Cable, etc), still have the shut-off circuitry in the battery, which makes the adapter a more viable thing for any of these brands. Kinda bizarre that it's more viable to build an adapter to use a slide-on Makita battery than it is for a Dewalt, but that is indeed the case. But as I've suggested earlier, I'd rather see one to use the Black & Decker 20V.
That same Dewalt employee also says:
It seems that despite this everyone is taking his words as gospel???
Anyway the specific issue he refers to is that of over current shut off, not under voltage or discharge shut off which some people seem to be confusing it with.
It seems that attempting to use the battery on a tool that requires more current than that for which the battery was designed would be the problem. I can certainly believe though, that protection circuitry in the tool could be customized for that particular pack, and that use with another tool could increase the chance of battery damage.
DPDISXR4Ti
Well-known member
Ah, I certainly came to the conclusion that it was the low-voltage shut-off function that had been moved from the battery to the tool with the Dewalt 20V stuff. So perhaps I jumped to worse-case scenario too quickly, and what they've done is added an extra layer of protection that simply doesn't exist on the lower-end B&D 20V stuff. But even still, if that makes the two product lines incompatible, it's an overall negative from my point of view.
DPDISXR4Ti
Well-known member
Here's another argument in favor of having an adapter to bridge the 18V Dewalt platform to the B&D 20V Max. The Craftsman Bolt-on 20V Max uses the same batteries, so you open up another batch of options from your local Sears store.
cashishift
Well-known member
I'm done with DeWalt.. probably going Bosch the next time around.
Ok yeah I think you're right. It looks like both under-voltage and over-current and/or over-temperature are all moved to the tool.
There's a guy here who has posted pictures of the internals of one of the 20V max packs here: http://dewaltownersgroup.com/index.php?topic=817.0
It definitely seems that the main "+" and "-" terminals connect directly to the tool. It looks like the four intermediate voltages somehow get multiplexed onto the other three slide connections (possibly along with a thermistor reading), but I'm guessing that only the charger makes use of those.
BTW. Can someone with one of these let us know how many of those slide connectors actually connect to the tool. Is it just the outer two (main +/- power), or do the other three auxiliary contacts also connect?
schmelpboy
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Dewalt cannot say that the technology is different or more expensive to make an 18v/20v connector for any of their tools...Now, retroactively, MAYBE. But all new 20v tools should be able to accept the old 18v batteries, there's no excuse other than making money. How do I know? I was at Lowe's yesterday, and the vacuum they sell there for 99 bucks is interchangeable for the 18v and 20v batteries, as well as the single stack stereo I just bought, which takes 12v, 18v, and 20v.
Southernbuild
Well-known member
After the significant investment I've made into Dewalts 18v line, I'm disappointed to be generally abandoned, by DeWalt moving into a new platform that isn't compatible with my existing tools. Goodbye DeWalt, I for one will not be buying into the 20v line. As I add / replace tools, it will be with Milwaukee Fuel series tools.
This is as stupid, as the 10.8v tools becoming 12v max.... Thankfully Bosch kept the design the same so my 6 batteries all interchange, regardless what voltage sticker they are wearing. DeWalt should've done similar, and used the same battery type for the newer technology, instead of going to a different form factor.
This is as stupid, as the 10.8v tools becoming 12v max.... Thankfully Bosch kept the design the same so my 6 batteries all interchange, regardless what voltage sticker they are wearing. DeWalt should've done similar, and used the same battery type for the newer technology, instead of going to a different form factor.
schmelpboy
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Don't get me wrong, I'd upgrade to the 20v tools in a moment....BUT they MUST also take my old 18v batteries until the 18v's are all dead, otherwise I'm just an angry, thinking twice about another brand, customer.....And I buy a LOT of tools....Also, I am the only person that purchases all of the tools for my entire company...so yeah, it'd be within their interest to not anger their existing customers....
That's what i said 2 months ago. I went to milwaukee Fuel and am very happy i did!
comedyman809
Well-known member
and they have heated jackets too…..milwaukee tools came first
DPDISXR4Ti
Well-known member
Thanks for posting your findings. That confirms for me that the Dewalt 18V to Dewalt 20V adapter is not worth exploring further. However, as I've stated above, I'm pretty sure that the Black & Decker and Porter-Cable 20V Max product lines DO still have the shut-off circuitry in the battery, despite all 3 being from the same Black & Decker Inc. corporate parent. Furthermore, Black & Decker is now making the Craftsman 20V Max tools, and so that product line too is compatible.
Given the above, I'd say the best battery standard to make an adapter for is the Craftsman/B&D/Porter-Cable 20V Max interface. That will give us the broadest product selection to choose from going forward (for new tool purchases), as well as having a new style battery widely available to power our old, but still functional, Dewalt 18V tools.
Admittedly, I hate that we'd still be putting money in Black&Decker/Dewalt's pockets (given the way they've walked away from us), but it's not like it will keep me up at night.
kythri
Well-known member
The only issue there is that none of those lines are particularly mainstream or top-tier.
You want a battery source that's going to be around for quite some time, and not immediately discontinued and replaced if some bean-counter feels sales aren't quite up to snuff.
I could be completely off-base here, but neither the B&D or Porter-Cable brand of cordless tools really seem to be widely popular or distributed. The Craftsman 20V stuff is second-fiddle to the 19.2V stuff.
Any of those three seem to be an easy target.
If DeWalt batteries won't work, I wonder if, perhaps, something like the Milwaukee M18 or Bosch 18V would be a better solution - if not for "cheap" batteries, for batteries that have the potential for a longer life in distribution than the other brands.
You want a battery source that's going to be around for quite some time, and not immediately discontinued and replaced if some bean-counter feels sales aren't quite up to snuff.
I could be completely off-base here, but neither the B&D or Porter-Cable brand of cordless tools really seem to be widely popular or distributed. The Craftsman 20V stuff is second-fiddle to the 19.2V stuff.
Any of those three seem to be an easy target.
If DeWalt batteries won't work, I wonder if, perhaps, something like the Milwaukee M18 or Bosch 18V would be a better solution - if not for "cheap" batteries, for batteries that have the potential for a longer life in distribution than the other brands.
i think an adapter that uses anything but a mainstream battery and more precisely a 20 volt max battery is a waste of time for several reasons.
1. people who have a lot of money invested in higher end tools don't want to invest in a consumer grade platform. that means the logical step is to a dewalt/milwaukee/makita system. that leaves the craftsman, porter-cable black and black and decker out of the loop.
2. dewalt 18 volt and 20 volt max items can be found in almost every type of store and supply center nationwide. hardware stores, home centers, lumber yards and even big box stores carry dewalt. sorry but those other brands are not as easy to find.
3. dewalt already has radios and chargers that will charge both platforms in the same device. someone correct me but i beleive they also have a vacuum that can be powered with either 18 or 20 volt max. tell me what would be a better fit.
4. i doubt if any of those consumer platforms will be around in a few years as they will more than likely be replaced with something new. most consumer grade tools seem to get used until the batteries fail and the consumer moves on to a different brand or platform meaning there is very little resistance to change. they won't be around long term.
as a side note, i also contacted the maker of that other adapter. maybe i was misinformed but he told me he has an adapter in the works and even gave me a date of when he hoped to have one ready. i was careful to ask if it was the dewalt 18 volt tool to 20 volt max battery and that i what he told me so i would not be so quick to rule it out entirely.
1. people who have a lot of money invested in higher end tools don't want to invest in a consumer grade platform. that means the logical step is to a dewalt/milwaukee/makita system. that leaves the craftsman, porter-cable black and black and decker out of the loop.
2. dewalt 18 volt and 20 volt max items can be found in almost every type of store and supply center nationwide. hardware stores, home centers, lumber yards and even big box stores carry dewalt. sorry but those other brands are not as easy to find.
3. dewalt already has radios and chargers that will charge both platforms in the same device. someone correct me but i beleive they also have a vacuum that can be powered with either 18 or 20 volt max. tell me what would be a better fit.
4. i doubt if any of those consumer platforms will be around in a few years as they will more than likely be replaced with something new. most consumer grade tools seem to get used until the batteries fail and the consumer moves on to a different brand or platform meaning there is very little resistance to change. they won't be around long term.
as a side note, i also contacted the maker of that other adapter. maybe i was misinformed but he told me he has an adapter in the works and even gave me a date of when he hoped to have one ready. i was careful to ask if it was the dewalt 18 volt tool to 20 volt max battery and that i what he told me so i would not be so quick to rule it out entirely.
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DPDISXR4Ti
Well-known member
I think I know what you mean by this statement, but it is actually confusing given the branding that Black & Decker uses across their product lines. B&D's Dewalt brand is branded 20V Max, just the same as the B&D/Porter-Cable/Craftsman 20V Max brands. However, as we have discussed here, the two are incompatible.
And as we've also discussed here, it would seem that it is just not technically possible to create a functional adapter between the Dewalt 18V and Dewalt 20V Max products. I understand your sentiments, but if the changes B&D made to the Dewalt 20V Max product make it impossible to make a simple adapter to the older 18V line, the conversation is moot.
Relative to the guy at www.liondapter.com making an adapter, I believe you are mistaken. From my discussions with Russell, what he plans to do is make an adapter between the Dewalt 18V and Makita 18V. My suggestion to him is the same one I've made here --> an adapter between the Dewalt 18V and B&D/Porter-Cable/Craftsman 20V Max.
DPDISXR4Ti
Well-known member
My impression is that the Craftsman 20V Max line is going to be replacing the older 19.2V stuff, much the same way that Dewalt has moved from the 18V to 20V Max lines.
I would say that by broadening the branding scope of the B&D products to now include Craftsman along with the B&D and Porter-Cable branded products, increases the odds that it will be around for awhile and widely distributed.
Admittedly, that story has not been told yet, so you can accuse me of being speculative if you'd like.
well he gave one of us some misinformation. i sent him a question and pretty clearly stated the option you mentioned and my option of the 20 volt max dewalt to 18 volt dewalt adapter. here is his response and according to it he hopes to have one by april.
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if you are done with dewalt you will be done with bosch next. they ****.
go Milwaukee or makita if you are going to make a change.
cashishift
Well-known member
They are on the short list also.
Love Bosch's new impactor with 1/2 socket and 1/4 hex.
Their radio also sounds excellent
cashishift
Well-known member
Elaborate on your position?
for some reason, i just always had the idea i didnt like bosch just by looking at their products. always chose a different brand based on eye contact.
my dad got a kit a few years ago, and the batteries never stayed up to part with my dewalts IMO. the circular saw would eat a battery in half, and the jigsaw smoked brand new out of the bag. he used the drill for normal repairs and both batteries ate themselves within a years time.
a friend of mine got bosch as a gift last year...cant turn that down. his bosch impact used 2 batteries vs one of my trusty 18v dewalts screwing down some metal roofing on his pole barn. i brought a half dead battery and a spare and never had to change it out.
i really like bosch bits though. those suckers will drill a hole real quick, especially their concrete sds line.
just my experience over the years.
They are on the short list also.
Love Bosch's new impactor with 1/2 socket and 1/4 hex.
Their radio also sounds excellent
I'm a huge bosch corded tools fan. But i don't like their cordless systems. That new impact you're talking about only has 1600 in-lbs (130 ft-lbs). Great for the 1/4, but lame for the 1/2.
The milwaukee fuel 1/2 has 210 ft-lbs and the 3/8s has 200. The 4.0AH batteries have unreal runtime.
kythri
Well-known member
I doubt that very much. The 20V Craftsman line isn't much younger than the C3 line, and it really hasn't taken off nearly as well. It's actually surprising to me that it's lasted this long.
But, that's speculation on my part, not based on any quantifiable data I can provide.