#4 or #2 for service cable to shop

[stage20]

ive got an abundance of #4-4-4 service cable (aluminum) left over from a job.

depending on length and temp, i hear a lot of different amp ratings.

will be powering 8 tube lights, outside security light, a 21A(max) compressor, and at most a miller 210. the welder and compressor will never run at the same time.

is 4 adequate or should i spend a few bucks and run the #2.

 

[theoldwizard1]

If you are coming off of a main panel you need 4 conductors.

 

[stage20]

ive got a buddy that is retired electrician and said 3 wire would work for what i needed. ill be comming off my 200a panel from my house, to a small 80amp panel in the garage(also off a job)

 

[Charles (in GA)]

ive got a buddy that is retired electrician and said 3 wire would work for what i needed. ill be comming off my 200a panel from my house, to a small 80amp panel in the garage(also off a job)

ASSUMING a detached garage...........

Under OLD codes, 15 years or so back, that was true. Current code requires 4 wires.... two hots, neutral, and a ground (separate from the neutral, and does not need to be as large either).

Ground and neutral in the subpanel need to be separate bars, with the neutral insulated and isolated from the metal of the panelboard and the ground.

If you have more than 6 breaker handles, you will need a main disconnect supplying the subpanel, either inside or outside the building, separate or in the subpanel.

Charles

 

[Norcal]

ive got a buddy that is retired electrician and said 3 wire would work for what i needed. ill be comming off my 200a panel from my house, to a small 80amp panel in the garage(also off a job)

Your buddy is wrong, 3 wire is no longer code compliant 4 wire is required now. Just seconding Charles (In GA).....

 

[awdblazer]

isn't that 4-4-4 the size of the insulated conductors? therefore it having a ground?

 

[Charles (in GA)]

isn't that 4-4-4 the size of the insulated conductors? therefore it having a ground?

Well, it would be a bare ground to not be included in the numbering, thus SE in a jacket, and you cannot run that underground, even in a conduit. I was ASSuming that the OP was referring to triplex, but indeed, he didn't state exactly what type of cable/wire it was.

Also the OP didn't state whether the garage was detached or not..

Indeed, we need to know the full description of the cable/wire and the proposed installation, in addition to the OP's location (US, Canada, etc).

Charles

 

[stage20]

detached and going to bury in pipe. I see this cable get put in pipe about everyday. Nw florida and south alabama. I've got 5 breakers. 3 20a singles for lights a double 30 for compresor and a doouble 30 for welder

 

[2ManyProjects]

ive got an abundance of #4-4-4 service cable (aluminum) left over from a job.

depending on length and temp, i hear a lot of different amp ratings.

ive got a buddy that is retired electrician and said ...

detached and going to bury in pipe. I see this cable get put in pipe about everyday.

There is absolutely zero point in guessing at this, let alone in making everyone trying to help you guess at what cable you're REALLY talking about. Look at the jacket, and precisely report EVERYTHING stamped thereon. That will tell the tale.

 

[stage20]

Aluma flex SE type U is on the outer sheath. If this int what I need ill pass on it. Like to make sure its right.

 

[Speedy Petey]

Aluma flex SE type U is on the outer sheath. If this int what I need ill pass on it. Like to make sure its right.

You 100% CANNOT use this cable.
A) It needs to be 3 insulated conductors plus ground, which it is not.
B) You CANNOT run that cable underground as it is a direct and explicit code violation, and for good reason.

Anyone who told you you could do this has no clue what they are doing in this day and age.

 

[C96]

Don’t forget, you MUST install a grounding electrode!

 

[stage20]

Anything I cn use this for other than scrap?

 

[GYPSY400]

Strip it and sell it for copper scrap.. go buy some 3/3 Teck90 cable if you are burying it. 3/3 is good for 100A.

Sent from my SGH-I747M using Tapatalk

 

[Norcal]

Strip it and sell it for copper scrap.. go buy some 3/3 Teck90 cable if you are burying it. 3/3 is good for 100A.

Sent from my SGH-I747M using Tapatalk

This is why someone's location is important, Teck cable is common in Canukistan but is not in the US.

 

[GYPSY400]

This is why someone's location is important, Teck cable is common in Canukistan but is not in the US.

So what is code for burial cable in the US??

Btw.. its Canada.. don't make me insult your homeland.

Sent from my SGH-I747M using Tapatalk

 

[stage20]

Called the local supply house and was suggested #2 URD. Said it was direct burial and easy to run through pipe if I wanted t do so.

 

[Norcal]

So what is code for burial cable in the US??

Btw.. its Canada.. don't make me insult your homeland.

Sent from my SGH-I747M using Tapatalk

My location comment was directed at the OP, their location was undisclosed, when Teck cable or pot lights are mentioned, the writer is prob. Canadian.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

Called the local supply house and was suggested #2 URD. Said it was direct burial and easy to run through pipe if I wanted t do so.

Problem with URD is that it is never allowed to enter a building, even to get to a panel just inside. It must terminate and splice to some other kind of wire, outside, such as in a outdoor disconnect, and then the approved wire can enter the building.

Better to use 2-2-2-4 mobile home feeder. It is rated RHH and RHW in addition to USE-2, so it can be used for direct burial and also pass inside the building, so long as it is in conduit above ground and inside (which you would have to do with URD were you to use it.)

Charles

 

[Speedy Petey]

Problem with URD is that it is never allowed to enter a building, even to get to a panel just inside. It must terminate and splice to some other kind of wire, outside, such as in a outdoor disconnect, and then the approved wire can enter the building.

This is another one of those things I never knew until the internets told me.
This is done ALL the time around here.

 

[stage20]

Problem with URD is that it is never allowed to enter a building, even to get to a panel just inside. It must terminate and splice to some other kind of wire, outside, such as in a outdoor disconnect, and then the approved wire can enter the building.

Better to use 2-2-2-4 mobile home feeder. It is rated RHH and RHW in addition to USE-2, so it can be used for direct burial and also pass inside the building, so long as it is in conduit above ground and inside (which you would have to do with URD were you to use it.)

Charles

thank you for the info. did not know about the mobile home cable, but now that i searched i see its the go to for garage power. its just a few cents more than the URD. hopefully i get some free time this weekend so i can get started. had my shop up a month and no power. tired of running an extension cord and using one tube light.

this place is more informative than most how to books.
thank you guys.

 

[stage20]

i dont think the supply house is helping much. i went down to get the mobile home feeder instead of the URD, and what they have is 2-2-4-6. i dont think that is what i need. i said i need 2-2-2-4. was told that is URD, but i dont want URD because i am not terminating outside.

went to home depot, and they have MHF for 1.47 a foot if this is the correct wire. from what ive read in threads ive saved, this is the right stuff.
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Southwir...ctrical-Cable-28712801/202316409#.UrJW8tJDvxA

 

[Charles (in GA)]

i dont think the supply house is helping much. i went down to get the mobile home feeder instead of the URD, and what they have is 2-2-4-6. i dont think that is what i need. i said i need 2-2-2-4. was told that is URD, but i dont want URD because i am not terminating outside.

went to home depot, and they have MHF for 1.47 a foot if this is the correct wire. from what ive read in threads ive saved, this is the right stuff.
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Southwir...ctrical-Cable-28712801/202316409#.UrJW8tJDvxA

Thats the stuff. Note in the product overview that it is tri rated, Type RHH or RHW-2 or USE conductors. USE is underground service (which by itself, is not allowed inside a building) and is also rated RHH and RHW-2, both of which are allowed in the building. The multi-rating makes it an all purpose cable.

THIS is the stuff you DO NOT WANT. It has a yellow striped neutral.

THIS is the stuff you DO WANT. It has a white striped neutral.

Different product sheet, but the same MHF you DO WANT.

This is a image of the markings on a 150 ft end cut of Southwire 2-2-2-4 MHF I have on the shelf. I enhanced the image by lightening up the middle of it to make the print easier to see.

You might read THIS to see why URD is an issue. It only discusses triplex, but same problem if quadplex.

The 2-2-4-6 is an undersized neutral. It is acceptable if you have a lot of 240v equipment and by "engineering calculations" show that you simply don't need a large neutral. For general use, you want a large neutral to handle large imbalanced loads. The neutral only carries the imbalance of loads. If one side of the bus is drawing 50 amps, and the other side is drawing 75 amps, the neutral is only carrying 15 amps. If you happen to turn on a bunch of stuff that is 120v and all on one side of the bus, the neutral is carrying all of that load.

Charles

 

[stage20]

thanks again, charles. wire has been purchased. hoped to get a start on it sunday. need some time off. work is so busy right now.