To avoid these ads, REGISTER NOW!

Rewire old shed

FrkyMnky

Active member
Joined
Nov 1, 2013
Messages
28
First off this is my first post and I have been reading a bunch about this. This would be my first real electrical adventure, but I feel pretty confident with it. I have a small shed that houses all of my tools for my bikes, however it is only currently wired for 120. I really just need to rewire the entire shed as the 120 that is in it now looks like **** and was done by a hack. The shed is 150' from the meter and I am planning on running a 70a at the meter supplying a 100a subpanel. I was hoping to run 2-2-2-4 MHF in conduit at 18" down. The biggest loads I have will be 21a for my 190a welder and 15a for the 3.7hp air compressor. Im not sure if that is startup amps or running, but I have been running it on the same 30a breaker as the welder.

I will also need to figure out outlets and lighting with the shop being 11.5'x20'. I am thinking 4 two light t8 fixtures overhead and possibly 2 more under cabinets over the work bench. Can I wire all of that with the standard 12-2 yellow wire you get at Lowes? I don't think it makes much sense to split the lights on two circuits, but am open to suggestions. I would hard wire the compressor with a disconnect next to it on a 30a and then two 30a on the same circuit for the welder on opposite walls. I don't need conduit inside the walls at all if they are being insulated do I? Also, do I need to pull permits for this or would the inspector simply come out and verify everything is done correctly once finished? I am located in Goldsboro, NC. Thanks in advance and I hope these are entirely stupid questions. Ill post some pictures of my bike if you guys are interested in exchange for some help.
 
To avoid these ads, REGISTER NOW!

2ManyProjects

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 18, 2013
Messages
757
First off this is my first post and I have been reading a bunch about this.

Then, welcome to GJ! :thumbup:

This would be my first real electrical adventure, but I feel pretty confident with it.

Confidence is good; but proceed with caution. You're getting into areas which are entirely new and unfamiliar to you; and based on your subsequent comments, there are still some things you need to learn about.

I have a small shed that houses all of my tools for my bikes, however it is only currently wired for 120. I really just need to rewire the entire shed as the 120 that is in it now looks like **** and was done by a hack. The shed is 150' from the meter and I am planning on running a 70a at the meter supplying a 100a subpanel. I was hoping to run 2-2-2-4 MHF in conduit at 18" down.

OK, first: Aluminum 2-2-2-4 MHF is nominally rated for up to 90 Amps; but your proposed run length will yield excessive voltage drop if you ever approach that much load current. You could use a 75-Amp breaker at the meter end to ensure that never happens; but for reasons I'll get to shortly, that might not be the best solution.

Second, at least most (all?) MHF is rated for direct burial; and I would HIGHLY recommend that you go that route. Pulling that stuff some ~150 feet through even a relatively large conduit will be no fun at all; and the expense of a sufficiently large conduit would surely be better put somewhere else. Use a large-radius "sweep" bend at each end to transition to Schedule 80 PVC for the above-ground parts.

Also, I personally would go deeper than 18 inches, regardless of "with conduit" or not. I'm not sure what the actual code requirements are in your area (it CAN vary by jurisdiction); but 24-36 inches seems like a safer bet to me. Regardless of how deep you go, DO put in a marker tape about 12 inches ABOVE the cable.

The biggest loads I have will be 21a for my 190a welder

Welders can be a special case; but they are most typically given 50A breakers. If it is a rather small welder, AND you are certain you'll never want a bigger one, you can probably get by with 30A.

and 15a for the 3.7hp air compressor. Im not sure if that is startup amps or running,

It's near-certainly neither. But what IS certain is that the compressor vendor is lying through their teeth about the "3.7 HP" claim.

You need to look at the actual data plate attached to the motor which drives that compressor, and report BOTH the HP and FLA ("Full Load Amps") figures. If the notation "SPL" appears ANYWHERE, all bets are off -- the data is meaningless; see http://www.wisedan.com/aircomp for the gory details.

All that said, if you ever want to run a REAL "3 HP" compressor in that shed, it will require AT LEAST a 25A (@ 240V) circuit; and 30A would better protect against nuisance trips on start-up.

but I have been running it on the same 30a breaker as the welder.

That is a VERY bad idea.

And given that you are going to be installing a new sub-panel in the shed, there is absolutely no reason to perpetuate that practice. Figure on individual DEDICATED 30A (minimum) circuits for the welder and the compressor.

I will also need to figure out outlets and lighting with the shop being 11.5'x20'.

For your general-purpose 120V outlets, my usual "recipe" will surely suffice: Put one double-gang box every 6-8 feet around the entire perimeter of the space, with each of the two duplexes in that box fed from a different breaker than the other one. In small shops (such as yours), two 20A circuits will normally handle the whole thing; in larger shops, split it up further as you see fit. Note that at least in anything which might be considered a "residential garage", NEC now requires that ALL 120V outlets be GFCI protected.

I am thinking 4 two light t8 fixtures overhead and possibly 2 more under cabinets over the work bench.

You're talking about two entirely different types of lighting here. Those "under cabinets over the work bench" fixtures are "Task Lighting", and don't really count toward your GENERAL illumination.

As for that, at 230 ft.^2, eight F32T8 tubes is potentially addequate; but much depends on the actual layout, vis-a-vis what you will be doing (and where) within the space.

Can I wire all of that with the standard 12-2 yellow wire you get at Lowes?

For the outlets, 12-2 is highly recommended, so that you can use 20A breakers. For the lights, 14-2 will be more than adequate, even if you put them all on the same breaker. Which brings us to...

I don't think it makes much sense to split the lights on two circuits, but am open to suggestions.

Go ahead and use two circuits for this. The reason is not the size of the load (which will be WELL under 15 Amps in any case). But rather, if/when one breaker trips (or must be thrown in order to do maintenance work), you won't be left completely in the dark.

I would hard wire the compressor with a disconnect next to it on a 30a and then two 30a on the same circuit for the welder on opposite walls.

As noted above, the compressor and the welder should NOT share a circuit.

I don't need conduit inside the walls at all if they are being insulated do I?

Insulation in the wall can actually DECREASE the current-carrying limit of a wire (as can bundling multiple cables together, and for the same reason -- HEAT). I'd have to go digging to quote the specific derating requirements; but for at least the lights and 120V outlets, I don't think it's going to be a factor.

Also, do I need to pull permits for this or would the inspector simply come out and verify everything is done correctly once finished?

That depends on your specific AHJ. But in general, if you don't pull a permit, you don't get an inspection.

 
OP
F

FrkyMnky

Active member
Joined
Nov 1, 2013
Messages
28
Thanks for answering some of my questions. I guess i should have explained some things a little better. When I spoke of using the same breaker for both my welder and compressor, I should have specified that I meant the same outlet and I simply unplugged the other when I needed to switch. Since we were leasing the home, I actually had to use the feed going to the W/H and add a plug onto it so I could use that circuit. Not ideal, but since it was not my house I could not go adding plugs into the garage on a new breaker.

As for the wiring, I am not planning on upgrading welders anytime soon, and even if I did, I would likely have to upgrade the service coming from the pole before I could even worry about a 50a breaker in the shed. I would like to keep the sub panel at 70a and if I am understanding the code correctly, I cannot have two of the same size breakers on the same circuit. So I would put the 70a in the sub panel and then a 100a in the main. I am still planning on using the 2-2-2-4 MHF and it is rated USE-2/RHH/RHW so I should have no problems running that inside the shed. Im thinking 2 30a on dedicated circuits for the compressor and welder. Would you keep one plug per breaker or could I run two plugs for the welder circuit? I will figure out lighting and the individual power outlets once I layout the work benches. I also got the numbers off of the compressor and its 15.7a. I know its not a true 3.7hp and never had that illusion. So max draw should be around 55a with the welder, compressor, all the lights on, and speakers or whatever other **** I might have running.
 

2ManyProjects

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 18, 2013
Messages
757
Thanks for answering some of my questions. I guess i should have explained some things a little better. When I spoke of using the same breaker for both my welder and compressor, I should have specified that I meant the same outlet and I simply unplugged the other when I needed to switch. Since we were leasing the home, I actually had to use the feed going to the W/H and add a plug onto it so I could use that circuit. Not ideal, but since it was not my house I could not go adding plugs into the garage on a new breaker.

OK, that's understandable -- and much more reasonable. Just don't do it that way in the new shed.

As for the wiring, I am not planning on upgrading welders anytime soon, and even if I did, I would likely have to upgrade the service coming from the pole before I could even worry about a 50a breaker in the shed.

Actually, I seriously doubt that, unless the service feeding your house is already marginally inadequate. But for now, it's a minor point; so let's move on...

I would like to keep the sub panel at 70a and if I am understanding the code correctly, I cannot have two of the same size breakers on the same circuit. So I would put the 70a in the sub panel and then a 100a in the main.

OK... Clearly you are NOT understanding the code correctly.

The only reason to limit the feed to the shed to 70A is due to the voltage drop imposed over the rather long run your feeder cable is going to make. And even then, you don't really need to "enforce" that limit via a circuit breaker.

Secondly, the ONLY "circuit breaker" of interest here is the one at the main panel (i.e., in the house), which MUST be sized to protect the feeder cable -- in the case of AL 2-2-2-4 MHF, that would be 90A (or less).

In addition to this, you also need a "local disconnect" at/in the shed, if there is going to be more than six branch-breaker handles in the shed's sub-panel (which there surely will be); and it is a good idea to provide such in any case. It is common practice to use a "back-fed" "Main" breaker in the sub-panel for this purpose, simply because this is a convenient way of providing the needed disconnect. But this "breaker" is NOT actually intended to act as a circuit breaker (i.e., protecting the system from overloads, shorts, etc.). Hence it can be (and often is) LARGER than the current limit of the feeder cable and/or panel itself. In your case, 100A or even 125A would be just fine.

I am still planning on using the 2-2-2-4 MHF and it is rated USE-2/RHH/RHW so I should have no problems running that inside the shed.

OK.

Im thinking 2 30a on dedicated circuits for the compressor and welder. Would you keep one plug per breaker or could I run two plugs for the welder circuit?

This gets into an area where I'm not completely confident in the subtleties of the NEC. As a general rule, high-capacity (30A and above, I think) branch circuits are code-limited to a single outlet per circuit. But welder circuits -- IF they are well and truly DEDICATED to a welder ONLY -- are something of a special case. For example, the wiring serving them can actually be undersized vis-a-vis the normal requirements for any given breaker size, yet still be perfectly "legal". That said, I don't like to see this in practice, mostly because it is too difficult to actually enforce the "welder only" designation for a given circuit/outlet, into perpetuity; odds are, sooner or later, SOMEBODY is going to plug some other high-draw machine into that socket -- and then all bets are off.

Similarly, I know that many folks DO install multiple outlets on their welder circuits, so that the welder itself can be moved about to different locations. Whether or not this meets the letter of the code, I'm not sure; but personally, I consider it far less of a potential problem than deliberately undersizing the wiring.

I will figure out lighting and the individual power outlets once I layout the work benches. I also got the numbers off of the compressor and its 15.7a. I know its not a true 3.7hp and never had that illusion. So max draw should be around 55a with the welder, compressor, all the lights on, and speakers or whatever other **** I might have running.

Sounds reasonable. But you also need to allow for start-up surges on the big machines. And then too, there's always the possibility of your adding more "stuff" (such as HVAC, for example?) as time goes on. So when it comes time to buy your sub-panel, make sure to select one with plenty of branch-breaker slots.

 
To avoid these ads, REGISTER NOW!

pattenp

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 4, 2008
Messages
10,175
Location
Virginia - USA
Even though MHF is rated for direct bury your best bet is to put it in conduit. Use 2 inch PVC and you should have no problems pulling the 2-2-2-4 . It has to be in conduit when run inside and where it's outside above ground.
 
OP
F

FrkyMnky

Active member
Joined
Nov 1, 2013
Messages
28
Couple more questions. I can place the sub panel pretty much anywhere so I am planning on running a sch80 elbow up from the buried conduit. Then using one of those 90 fittings with the access panel on them to run the wire inside the house with that conduit going directly to the panel so I can keep MHF the entire way. Does that sound alright or is there a better way to run the conduit to the panel so I don't have to splice in SER? On the ground, I have to run a #6 ground to two 8' long ground rods at least 6' apart, correct? Is there a proper way to run the ground wire to the panel? Do most simply run it up the side of the house to where the conduit enters? I think that just about does it besides buying everything and digging this very long trench.
 

2ManyProjects

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 18, 2013
Messages
757
Couple more questions. I can place the sub panel pretty much anywhere so I am planning on running a sch80 elbow up from the buried conduit. Then using one of those 90 fittings with the access panel on them to run the wire inside the house with that conduit going directly to the panel so I can keep MHF the entire way. Does that sound alright or is there a better way to run the conduit to the panel so I don't have to splice in SER?

It sounds OK to me; but such conduit details are not my primary area of expertise.

On the ground, I have to run a #6 ground to two 8' long ground rods at least 6' apart, correct? Is there a proper way to run the ground wire to the panel? Do most simply run it up the side of the house to where the conduit enters?

The only "hard & fast" requirements I'm aware of are that it MUST be one continuous run of AWG 6 from the buss bar in the panel through to the last ground rod, and that the rods MUST be fully inserted into the ground. For new construction UFER grounds are preferred (and possibly required).

Note that in the sub-panel, the Ground and Neutral buss bars MUST NOT be bonded together. Usually, there is a screw which can be either installed or removed to effect this.

I think that just about does it besides buying everything and digging this very long trench.

Rent a trencher for the day. WELL worth the expense, vis-a-vis killing your back (the worst negative effects of which might not show up for YEARS -- ask me how I know :sad:).

 

pattenp

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 4, 2008
Messages
10,175
Location
Virginia - USA
You are fine with your plan for the conduit connection to the panel. The 90 degree box is a LB type conduit body.
 
To avoid these ads, REGISTER NOW!
Top Bottom