Noob building a garage.

[Jimmies63]

I have been lurking here for a while and now I think I am ready to ask some intelligent questions.

I'm building a storage + workshop for my antique cars. I am far enough down the road to know some sense of what I want. My neighbor has built a 40x76 pole barn that does the job for him. Condensation and rodents getting into his car collection has not been an issue. Based on what he learned, here is what I think I am going to build. I am in the land of snow in western ny. Questions to follow:

1. I'll contract out a 40x92 pole barn. 14' tall (so I can stack cars). Metal roof. Metal walls. 32 feet will be insulated and heated workshop. 44 feet unheated storage. 16 feet of outside porch/parking.
2. It will be 400-450 feet behind my house. That will be important to know later.
3. I'll have an insulated and sealed concrete slab laid that I will contract out.
4. Two OH garage doors and two man doors along one wall. Gables and back wall face nothing

Questions.

1. Heating the workshop. Neighbor has forced air gas heater. A lot of people here have slab heat. My house has full radiant slab heat (ceiling) so I am quite familiar with it. Is slab heat the way to go? Can it reliably heat a 32x40x14 building? Should I heat the water with gas or electric?
2. Does slab heat raise he cost of concrete (ie more depth?).
3. Considering the building is almost half a block from my house, utilities will likely be $$$ to run back there. Electric is essential. Is it worth running gas for the heat? Does it make any sense to run water or sewer back there? It is all city so septic allowed. can all three be run together?
4. Windows. Neighbor doesn't have any. Kinda makes sense from a security standpoint and keeping sun off cars. What is the conventional wisdom on windows in workshops? Right now I have a pile of windows in my 22x26 barn and they are all always covered up!

It's a big post, would appreciate any input.

 

[nehog]

... My house has full radiant slab heat (ceiling) so I am quite familiar with it. Is slab heat the way to go? ...

Your house has the slab on the ceiling? They done it wrong!!!

Here's my take on it (slab vs. FHA)...

If you are going to keep it at temperature all the time (no real setbacks) then slab may make sense. If you are going to go with background heat (say 50 to 55 degrees) when you are actually not doing anything, then go with FHA which will raise the temperature much quicker. In my shop (30x60) my 150K BTU FHA heater (unit heater) will raise my temp from about 40 to 55 (temp I prefer for working) in about 15 to 20 minutes. With slab heat, no way you're going to raise the temp that quickly.

My friend, up the street, uses his building (same square footage) full time, and the slab heat is great. But he never varies the temp (he does signs and lettering, and needs absolute temperature stability) and it is nice, but quite expensive.

 

[ambenz]

Hey Jimmie and Welcome to the forum.
Sounds like you got you ducks in a row.
As far as heating, I like the old adage, Keep it simple.
I like forced air because if it breaks down or wears out, it relatively cheap to replace.
Also, you have to consider you might be drilling in the concrete for your storage lifts so you need to know where the tubing in the concrete is.
Natural Gas in my area is cheaper than electric so I went with Natural gas.
Being your garage is far from home, I would add as many modern conveniences as your pocketbook can supply..."Think Big!"
Get everything on your want list!
If your going to dig a ditch for a gas line, use the ditch for electrical, gas, water, sewer, and communications lines too!
Try to bury electrical feeds to the garage...overhead wires are a eyesore and sometimes a inconvenience.
Adding a sink and toilet to an existing sewer line would be my choice...you not adding more people on the septic system, just another place to go.
As far as windows, check your local township or village codes, if any.
Skylights are nice and can supply free light...or keep the windows high...near the eaves...I like not having any windows but because of code, I had to put one in...it faces the house.
Just because you have free window doesn't mean you should use them!
You can have a barn sale and try to sell them to defray some construction costs.

Build as big as you can afford with as many modern conveniences as you can.
Also think about paving a concrete driveway and sidewalk ..keeps those antiques clean and a place for your friends to park there rides too!
DYI as much as you can and you will save $$$$.
I dug the ditch and ran all my lines to the garage, ran all the power in the garage, and all the perimeter drains and saved over $5,000 I used to pay for more concrete parking and driveway.

 

[Jimmies63]

Your house has the slab on the ceiling? They done it wrong!!!

I guess you would call it slab. 1/2 copper pipe on 12" centers packed in about 2.5" of cement and finish plaster. With the backing lath it is thicker than a normal drill bit (had a leaky pipe in the bath and had to drain the dining room ceiling - regular drill bit didn't make it).

I was all hooked on the slab heat until I considered your post about not needing to keep it warm all the time. I will be largely weekends and not all of them. Won't make sense to keep it warm. FHA it is.

 

[ez-duzit]

Check with your local building department regarding placing all utilities in the same trench. They probably don't want someone accidentally severing a gas or electric line when repairing the sewer line. Ask them.

Depending on the cost of gas and electricity in your area you might want to investigate solar heating. Check for possibly huge rebates. Insulate.

Surely you'll want at least a 1/2-bath. A full bath won't add that much to your overall cost.

Clerestory windows could bring in daylight without compromising security.

 

[Jimmies63]

Check with your local building department regarding placing all utilities in the same trench. They probably don't want someone accidentally severing a gas or electric line when repairing the sewer line. Ask them.

Depending on the cost of gas and electricity in your area you might want to investigate solar heating. Check for possibly huge rebates. Insulate.

Surely you'll want at least a 1/2-bath. A full bath won't add that much to your overall cost.

Clerestory windows could bring in daylight without compromising security.

I'm thinking just propane for heat. Why pay to drag gas out there for a few weekends a month in the winter. That cuts out one utility.

I would trench the rest my self and save a few bucks. Should be able to run water and electric with the sewer in its own trench.

 

[theoldwizard1]

First, where are you located and how important is having A/C in the building ?

My friend, up the street, uses his building (same square footage) full time, and the slab heat is great.

That sums it up perfectly !

A radiantly heated slab is best for a building that people use a large percentage of time. If your feet are warm, you are warm. Nothing like it until you experience it. Cars don't care if their tires are warm or ground temperature !

I don't have any numbers, but radiant heat is a lot more to install compared to forced air. It is not the additional cost of thicker concrete. You have to lay a wire grid (4" ?) to tie the PEX down. Have your lay out designed by a pro and you won't have any issues. I can't tell you for certain if it is more cost effective to operate, but I believe it is.

For operating costs, gas is almost always a lot cheaper than electric heat. Propane is more expensive than natural gas, but probably still less than electric.

Last option to consider is a zoned split heat pump system. You can still have a heated floor (via a heat exchanger) and the benefit of forced air (quick recovery) as well as A/C ! Plus, you save the cost of running a gas line.

 

[theoldwizard1]

I'm thinking just propane for heat. Why pay to drag gas out there for a few weekends a month in the winter. That cuts out one utility.

Good idea !

I would trench the rest my self and save a few bucks. Should be able to run water and electric with the sewer in its own trench.

Don't bet on that ! Check with local building inspectors.

 

[Xander]

My garage is in WNY, I did forced air in my garage, and I keep it 55 all winter and raise it up when I walk in the door to work on something and it's warm within minutes. I personally feel like heat is a must have, along with electric.

Xander

 

[Jimmies63]

My garage is in WNY, I did forced air in my garage, and I keep it 55 all winter and raise it up when I walk in the door to work on something and it's warm within minutes. I personally feel like heat is a must have, along with electric.

Xander

I'm just north of you.

 

[texas webb]

Not sure of your area but all codes I know of water&sewer have to be
at least 3ft away from electric and separate trench.Are permits and inspections
required?

 

[6768rogues]

I have two barns that are heated with hanging heaters; one is natural gas and the other is propane (off site, no natural gas available). Natural gas is cheaper and the price is trending down, wish I had it for both. I like the heat because it is quick to respond to changes in thermostat settings. I keep them about 45 degrees all winter and turn it up to about 55 when working in the building. It takes about 15 minutes to warm up and about a half hour before uniform temps are present. I turn it back down about a half hour before quitting to go in the house.
Local regulations will dictate co-location of utilities (Monroe County, NY). Around here electric goes in its own trench. Water and sewer can go in the same trench if the water is above the sewer and is put on a shelf on the side of the sewer trench. Water has to be deep enough to be freeze protected, so if the sewer is not deep at your site, it doesn't work.

 

[theoldwizard1]

My garage is in WNY, I did forced air in my garage, and I keep it 55 all winter and raise it up when I walk in the door to work on something and it's warm within minutes. I personally feel like heat is a must have, along with electric.

Xander

Forced air, especially natural gas fired forced area, is a cost effective solution for garage heat. A big bonus for forced air over radiant heat is fast recovery.

Forced air can not raise the temperature of the concrete floor by very much. Radiant heat is much more "comfortable" heat and not as dry as forced air.

Long term, a natural gas fired boiler and radiant heat cost less to operate than forced air.

 

[Crazy68Dart]

How much will you be in the space in the cold winter months?

On the electric side of things, will your service to your home support the new space or will that need upgraded too?

The heat thing... slab heat is really nice, but an expensive install. One thing I have been considering is getting the pex in the slab but leaving the system install for a later date. Gives you the option of delaying the $$$ spend and go with forced air in the mean time and see if it works out for you. You will and can even without PEX insulate the slab, so that will help some too. The ideal would be to have slab heat and then forced air to bring the space up quick when you need it. But there is a price to pay for that luxury.

The mini split idea is interesting, but I don't know enough about the efficiency of the systems to know if they can handle a space like that in extreme (low) temps. I would still bury a natural gas line, just so you have the option at some point int he future, or be willing to go propane if you want.

My old garage was small, ~18x24 and I insulated the walls (R13) and placed OSB in the rafters to keep the heat "down". I heated the space with a small 220 electric forced air heater. I got a new insulated garage door, nice one, and that helped a ton. Anyway, that little heater would keep it as warm as I wanted in there all winter.

Just some things to think about... high ceilings "waste" heat, big spaces look and feel great, but waste heat, etc. Maybe think about attic/storage space over your shop/work space if you don't need the head room, that will make it easier to heat the space.

 

[mebuildit]

Have someone come out and check on what system would work best for you. You need to think about recovery once a door gets opened. How fast will it heat back up after you close the door.
I am in the planning process of building my own shop and since I live in Az. recovery for air conditioning is huge.
So think along those lines as well.

 

[tomroblee]

The answers to your questions depend on where you are located and what you need to do to keep your local government and utility companies happy.


It's going to be difficult and expensive to extend your house electrical system 400' to 500' without incurring a lot of voltage drop. I would suggest that you talk to your local electric utility to determine whether it is feasible to extend your present electric service or whether you will need a separate service. If you need a separate service, the electric company may insist on doing the trenching.

Plastic gas pipe is cheap. There will be a fair amount of pressure drop over 450 feet, so you might need to upgrade your existing gas piping or get a separate service to your new garage. You need to talk to your local gas utility to learn what options you have and their approximate cost.

I agree with everyone else. A bathroom is darn near a necessity over the long haul (and 450' is a long haul when the urge strikes.) Plastic water pipe is cheap. It has to be buried below frost line, so the cost of the trenching depends on your location and how easy the soil is to trench.

Water is under pressure, but sewer runs downhill. Unless your garage is going to be uphill from you house, it may not be feasible to run the sewage back to your house.

When I had my pole barn built several years ago I had a clear plastic ridge cap installed. It effectively give me an 18" wide window the length of the barn. This obviously wouldn't be practical if you are going to have a ceiling installed or over the heated part of the barn. Some people in the SW part of the country say that the sun degrades this ridge caps in their area.

 

[Jimmies63]

The answers to your questions depend on where you are located and what you need to do to keep your local government and utility companies happy.


It's going to be difficult and expensive to extend your house electrical system 400' to 500' without incurring a lot of voltage drop. I would suggest that you talk to your local electric utility to determine whether it is feasible to extend your present electric service or whether you will need a separate service. If you need a separate service, the electric company may insist on doing the trenching.

Plastic gas pipe is cheap. There will be a fair amount of pressure drop over 450 feet, so you might need to upgrade your existing gas piping or get a separate service to your new garage. You need to talk to your local gas utility to learn what options you have and their approximate cost.

I agree with everyone else. A bathroom is darn near a necessity over the long haul (and 450' is a long haul when the urge strikes.) Plastic water pipe is cheap. It has to be buried below frost line, so the cost of the trenching depends on your location and how easy the soil is to trench.

Water is under pressure, but sewer runs downhill. Unless your garage is going to be uphill from you house, it may not be feasible to run the sewage back to your house.

When I had my pole barn built several years ago I had a clear plastic ridge cap installed. It effectively give me an 18" wide window the length of the barn. This obviously wouldn't be practical if you are going to have a ceiling installed or over the heated part of the barn. Some people in the SW part of the country say that the sun degrades this ridge caps in their area.

The reason the building is so far away is so I can sever the land later and either sell the barn or sell the house. We are on three acres and the back two are not worth much, the front acre and house are prime waterfront.

That said, I was figuring if I go water and sewer it would have to be new hook ups. It would not be worth trying to put them through or from the house lines. The sewer is super deep at the road (I think almost 15 feet) so we have a lot of room to fit that in. The electric service runs over my backyard on poles, I was going to go to the utility co and have a new service installed. The house is maxed out anyway.

That said, getting lots of good ideas here. Almost thinking I should just build something close to house.

 

[Thumper68]

Everyone says that installing PEX in floor is more $$$ than forced air, I just don't see it that way. For my 40x32 the total heating system cost under $2000 (elec boiler) granted I did it all my self, this doesn't include the 2" rigid foam under the floor but I would have done that either way. About $500 for the tubeing and $1500 for the boiler and all the parts. It would have cost me at least $2500 to do forced air and taken up much more room than the in-floor.

Not to mention that when I retire I will be adding a outdoor boiler for the house and shop so my heating costs at that point will drop to the cost of gas for the chainsaw and the minimal cost of elec for running the pumps.

 

[rice rocket]

Everyone says that installing PEX in floor is more $$$ than forced air, I just don't see it that way. For my 40x32 the total heating system cost under $2000 (elec boiler) granted I did it all my self, this doesn't include the 2" rigid foam under the floor but I would have done that either way. About $500 for the tubeing and $1500 for the boiler and all the parts. It would have cost me at least $2500 to do forced air and taken up much more room than the in-floor.

Not to mention that when I retire I will be adding a outdoor boiler for the house and shop so my heating costs at that point will drop to the cost of gas for the chainsaw and the minimal cost of elec for running the pumps.

Again, like someone already stated, depends on how often you're in there. If you're holding steady at 55 always, then it might make sense to heat the slab. If you're holding it at 45 and 55 for the 8 hours/week you're in there, it'll take near forever to raise that slab 10 degrees, and you'll waste a whole lot of energy chasing target temperatures, and the forced air will work much better in that scenario.

 

[Jimmies63]

Again, like someone already stated, depends on how often you're in there. If you're holding steady at 55 always, then it might make sense to heat the slab. If you're holding it at 45 and 55 for the 8 hours/week you're in there, it'll take near forever to raise that slab 10 degrees, and you'll waste a whole lot of energy chasing target temperatures, and the forced air will work much better in that scenario.

The only logic to installing pex when it will not be used regularly is to have it for later. I have thought it through and have concluded that FHA will be all I need for a long time. Saw my neighbors place today. He goes through 2-3 100 lb refills of propane a year working weekends off and on in the winter. I could live with that for a long time.

 

[Crazy68Dart]

The only logic to installing pex when it will not be used regularly is to have it for later. I have thought it through and have concluded that FHA will be all I need for a long time. Saw my neighbors place today. He goes through 2-3 100 lb refills of propane a year working weekends off and on in the winter. I could live with that for a long time.

Yeah.. same here... does not mean I am not thinking about getting the PEX in the slab though. And surely insulating under the slab if nothing else.

The nice thing about forced air is that there are so many options with a pretty wide range of price points. I tend to like the units that hang from the ceiling up and out of the way. You can also get electric units that perform the same duty, but it appears that you are good with propane, which is probably going to be cheaper than electric.

Plus, you can still set the temps back to 40-50 if you want to with a forced air system, and then have a really quick recovery. This is usually what I did in my old garage with the electric heater. Kept the tools, etc. at a nice temp and it was easy to manage the heat in the space when I knew I would be working on things multiple days in a row. After the project was done, shut it off completely.

Bringing a space up to temp with slab heat from below 32F has to take a while (days?) and use a lot of energy. But that warm floor sure sounds nice, lol.