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Rust Removal by Electrolysis - Anode Consideration

rustbucket49

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Sep 21, 2008
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Texas
This is my first thread on TGJ, but have posted several times on Jalopy Journal and RRJ. I have started a new thread here on an existing subject because I know a lot of times people never read posts between the first and last ones.....

I was reading through the thread about Rust Removal by Electrolysis and several discussions were made referencing the use of stainless steel for the sacrificial anode. The question came up about the generation of chromium. Although I can't provide a chemical balance equation for the process or the ultimate correct answer, I can search the web for opinions from those smarter than I.....

I found (as most of you probably have as well) NUMEROUS references stating NOT to use stainless for the anode due to the chromium issue. I also found the one below that gives a slightly different spin on it: Read on....

Problems with Stainless Steel Anodes
"...Some thoughtful correspondents have pointed out that the use of stainless steel for the positive electrode (anode) may have some undesirable consequences. Most stainless steels contain high percentages of chromium and nickel which may be released into the bath as the anode is slowly eaten away. These are likely to be released initially as soluble cations just as the iron is released initially as ferrous ions. However, since all three cations are being released into an alkaline solution, they are likely to be immediately converted to insoluble hydroxides or oxides and form encrustations on the electrode or fall to the bottom as sediments. In this bound form the nickel and chromium are likely to be less hazardous but nevertheless waterproof gloves should always be worn when working with the bath and the bath sludge should be disposed of appropriately. It may be better to avoid the problem entirely by using simple iron electrodes and brushing the sludge off regularly......"


Even with this different spin, this source - like all the rest - recommends NOT to use a stainless steel anode. So there is still a little confusion that probably needs to be clarified by a qualified chemist - which leads me to inject an analogy to possibly give you some more food for thought.....

Let's say you just brought your newborn baby girl home (OR your son-in-law just brought home your brand new granddaughter). You will do anything to care for her, keep her safe and healthy. Your buddy is over at your house while you happen to be mixing her formula using tap water. He says, "Dude, I'm not absolutely sure, but I think that water has deadly chromium in it"... Would you use it???? Didn't think so....

My point being that if you have information that suggests something you're doing could be hazardous or unsafe, why keep doing it. Can you not afford a couple of pieces of rebar or a trip to the junk yard to pick up some scrap iron to clean that "valuable" crescent wrench or pulley?? If not, you sure won't understand hydrogen embrittlement either.....

...my $0.02 worth - FWIW, I don't use stainless......
 
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Steve in Mi

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My point being that if you have information that suggests something you're doing could be hazardous or unsafe, why keep doing it. Can you not afford a couple of pieces of rebar or a trip to the junk yard to pick up some scrap iron to clean that "valuable" crescent wrench or pulley?? If not, you sure won't understand hydrogen embrittlement either.....

...my $0.02 worth - FWIW, I don't use stainless......

Woe! I happen to have started the other thread you mention so let me attempt to respond to your concerns.

I hear what you are saying and think if you take your own advice you will stay inside tomorrow, the sky may fall. Maybe that is an overreaction but we all know that driving to work can be hazardous so I guess you'll be selling the car, right? How about another approach - take a defensive driving coarse, wear seat belts and abide by the motor vehicle regulations, stop signs, posted speed limits ect.

btw, stainless steel, new or scrap is far more costly than rebar so that argument doesn't fly, at all. Last I checked SS310 scrap rate was ~$4.00/lb. but it is one of the highest priced SS's. So, there may be other reasons for using it in the bath but because I'm not trying to encourage/promote its use, I'll not go into it. I have tried to caution others on the use of SS and gave some links that discuss the possible negative effects of using SS. Me suggesting you wear your seatbelt will not ensure anything except perhaps you give it a second thought weither you buckle-up or not. Thanks for the second thought about safety.

There are correct methods for proper disposal of the waste products from an electrolysis bath possibly containg heavy metal contaminents. If you are going to operate a bath responsibly you will want to identify the method you will use - i.e., study the little driver's test booklet. I will use the evaporative method and containerize for toxic/hazardous waste disposal.

The use of proper protective gear is always a good idea - rubber gloves would be on the list for bath operation anyway but particularly where skin absorbtion is a risk.

hydrogen embrittlement - I'll let you put the FEAR in folks on that one only I ask that you provide hard data not this 'I read somewhere' or 'heard from a guy'.

First post. Welcome rustbucket49 to GJ and I hope I haven't been too harsh and you will continue to post.
 
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rustbucket49

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Sep 21, 2008
Messages
124
Location
Texas
Steve, thanks for your reply. I fully expected such feedback. No you have not offended me by any means.

To clarify a few points, #1 - NO I don't think the sky is falling, #2 YES I realize that stainless steel is more expensive than scrap metal / junk iron (I never said to buy scrap SS), #3 a lot of people out there may not understand the electrolysis process like you do and #4 I DO understand hydrogen embrittlement.

My objective was not a "Woe is Me" attitude, but to present THE FACT that MULTIPLE sources encourage you NOT to use stainless steel as an anode. Also, since stainless steel IS more expensive than scrap or rebar, why would the common, every day handy man use it? And don't give me the argument than it "erodes at a slower rate". True, but unless you're using the process to derust your freaking house, WHO CARES!!!! - regular scrap metal lasts a good while for the guy who's cleaning his beloved crescent wrench.... If you're using a 5 gallon bucket to do your work, chances are you're not doing enough volume to make a difference with the anode - I know this from personal experience. A 55 gal container may be different - I don't know.

By reading your original thread (which I found quite interesting and informative), it was apparent to me that there are some people who are not familiar with the process and who aren't sure of the possible implications of what they use for anodes, electrolyte, etc. That being said, my objective was to point out or suggest that PERHAPS you'd be better off erring on the safe side and using steel or iron anodes - not stainless.

Best Wishes
 
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russlaferrera

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Nov 24, 2006
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rust bucket, Thanks for the post.You explained the "why" I have used SS at some point as I get a lot of scrap metal from work. So for me it is a matter of choice on what to take.
 

opezio

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May 21, 2013
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What about removing rust from stainless steel is that safe? Using stainless as the cathode. I'll be sure to use re-bar or angle iron scraps for the sacrificial anode.
I want to be sure it's safe and that it also won't destroy my stainless item.
Thanks
 
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zacker01

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Id be more concerned with people using the stainless steel and then just pouring out the solution from their tanks on the ground with all that bad stuff in it. Also, I don't know what the laws are but I saw on a sight that said not only is the use of SS bad cause of the poison gas released but production of that gas is illegal? anyone know anything about this? I just used scrap steel, Sure I got a lot of SS but ill just stick to pipes, flat stock, tube or what ever clean steel I can get...lol Ill save the SS for something good.
 

opezio

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May 21, 2013
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But if removing rust from stainless steel is that safe? Using stainless as the cathode. My understanding is that the cathode doesn't get consumed. So if the stainless isn't being consumed (as the re-bar anode does get consumed) there shouldn't be any bad byproducts ... right ? Also I don't want to accidentally dissolve my stainless steel parts that I am trying to save.

Thanks
 

zacker01

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Jun 11, 2012
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CT, New Haven County
I think the ss does get consumed. Same as the steel rebar would. maybe not as fast... I would think that cleaning ss would be safer than using SS as the electrodes. try it, just be careful and be sure to do it outside and don't pour the used solution away.. just put it into a big enough container and let it evaporate over time. (You don't want that nasty, cancer causing stuff in your water supply...lol)
 
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