Am I thinking correctly? (100amp service/new panel)

[coma13]

Preface: I'm renting a garage for the next couple years and I'm setting it up for a hobby metal fab/motorcycle workshop. The property is about 100 years old and has all sorts of relics of work past.

In trying to sort the wiring out, I came across two panels in the garage. The house is powered off a different panel in the basement. One panel in the garage feeds the auxiliary structures and one outlet/light in the front of the garage that the owner has used for an air compressor and an exterior light on the front of the garage. The question I have is in regards to this other panel.

There is a very old, small load center, which connects to a meter box just outside the wall. This meter box is off. Apparently the owner had the service turned off because it wasn't being used.

This is the meter:

This is the load center:

Am I correct in assuming that this is evidence of 100amp service from that meter?

I was thinking of removing that panel, and replacing it with a small, 6 space 100amp load center like this:

http://low.es/196itCI

I would be using it to power (1) 30a 220v circuit for a welder, (2) 20a circuits for lighting, and (2) 20a circuits for outlets.

The owner is cool with me having the power turned back on and then I would be paying for my service directly, and not having to figure out a portion of their electric bill.

Am I missing anything here?

 

[Speedy Petey]

Question #1: Where are you located?
You may not legally be able to do with work, even with the owner's permission.

The panel would have to be rated for use as service equipment. If that panel is rated then you are strictly limited to only six breakers/circuits without a main breaker. What you are describing will max out that panel with NO room for ANY expansion.

IMO I'd spend just a couple more dollars and get a 100A main breaker panel. You can get a value pack with a few breakers for like $60.

 

[coma13]

Question #1: Where are you located?
You may not legally be able to do with work, even with the owner's permission.

Petaluma, CA.

The panel would have to be rated for use as service equipment. If that panel is rated then you are strictly limited to only six breakers/circuits without a main breaker. What you are describing will max out that panel with NO room for ANY expansion.

I am a definite n00b when it comes to non-motorcycle electrical work. I do have friends who are electricians who can help me out, but I'm trying to get a plan. I understand about maxing out the panel, it's a pretty small space (20x20), and I am going to get limited use out of it, so I would like to spend as little as possible.

IMO I'd spend just a couple more dollars and get a 100A main breaker panel. You can get a value pack with a few breakers for like $60.

Thanks, that is exactly what I'm looking for. The setup looked odd to me, with no main breaker.

So, something like this?

http://low.es/1ga21Am

 

[JoeFin]

PG&E allows a separate "Agricultural Meter" for maintaining a well to water livestock. I'm assuming that is what you have. Too bad he had the service turned off because Ag Rate is $.09 per Kw

Other then that you'll have to be feed off the main service to the house

cheaper to go the auction and get a couple lambs and reapply for the ag service then refeeding the outbuildings

 

[Speedy Petey]

That would work, but I was thinking more like this: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0083H20PA/?tag=atomicindus08-20

$52 value pack on Amazon, it's even with Prime. Pretty much the same can be had at home centers.

 

[coma13]

PG&E allows a separate "Agricultural Meter" for maintaining a well to water livestock. I'm assuming that is what you have. Too bad he had the service turned off because Ag Rate is $.09 per Kw

Other then that you'll have to be feed off the main service to the house

cheaper to go the auction and get a couple lambs and reapply for the ag service then refeeding the outbuildings

The property is actually a functioning farm. Chickens, horses, etc...

 

[theoldwizard1]

... I came across two panels in the garage. ... One panel in the garage feeds the auxiliary structures and one outlet/light in the front of the garage that the owner has used for an air compressor and an exterior light on the front of the garage. The question I have is in regards to this other panel.

PG&E allows a separate "Agricultural Meter" for maintaining a well to water livestock. I'm assuming that is what you have. Too bad he had the service turned off because Ag Rate is $.09 per Kw

I'm no code expert, especially when it comes to farm/ranch specific wiring, so you need to get this confirmed. In general, you are not allowed to have 2 separate feeds supplying power to a building. If the first panel you mentioned is feed from the house or directly from the meter, this would put the owner in violation.

There is a very old, small load center, which connects to a meter box just outside the wall. This meter box is off. Apparently the owner had the service turned off because it wasn't being used.

It maybe old, but it looks to be in good condition. Why not use it ? What brand and model. You usually can get breakers even for old panels.

If you feed that first box from the one, you should be legal.

 

[JoeFin]

The property is actually a functioning farm. Chickens, horses, etc...

$.09 per Kw Ag meter it is

Kudos - the coveted Ag meter on the shop. Ya - set a new Meter main like Speedy suggest and you'll be the Low Electricity Rate Envy of Garage Journal

Just set the meter - get PG&E to turn it on - THEN do all your additions

 

[JoeFin]

I'm no code expert, especially when it comes to farm/ranch specific wiring, so you need to get this confirmed. In general, you are not allowed to have 2 separate feeds supplying power to a building. If the first panel you mentioned is feed from the house or directly from the meter, this would put the owner in violation.

I'm not going to look it up in the NEC right now but yes it is allowed - has to be a separate outbuilding thou

It maybe old, but it looks to be in good condition. Why not use it ? What brand and model. You usually can get breakers even for old panels.

If you feed that first box from the one, you should be legal.

Its an old Zenco panel and Challenger makes a replacement buss bar set that converts them over to Challenger breakers. Zenco has been out of business for some time and the breakers became costly and difficult to find for a while

 

[coma13]

Thanks for all the feedback guys.

This is the "other" panel that supplies the power to the other barns and the house on the property, and the one circuit in use on the front of the garage. This is the one with power running to it, currently.

These are the two meters on the outside of the garage. The right one is the one that is connected to the unused panel, and the one on the left is the one feeding into the powered panel that supplies everything else.

EDIT: MAJOR "A-HA" MOMENT

That 125A breaker on the "other" panel is what supplies power to the house. The single 20A circuit is what runs power to the lights in the other bars. This is the main point of entry for the power to the property.

This is the subpanel in the house, and it's directory:

I was initially thinking it would be preferable to have the separate meter running the garage only, for ease of payment on my part. Is that the best course of action? Should I run it off of the currently used panel instead? Or should I just add all my circuits to the currently used panel and ditch the separate panel idea entirely?

 

[Norcal]

I'm not going to look it up in the NEC right now but yes it is allowed - has to be a separate outbuilding thou





Its an old Zenco panel and Challenger makes a replacement buss bar set that converts them over to Challenger breakers. Zenco has been out of business for some time and the breakers became costly and difficult to find for a while

Zinsco & Challenger are both out of business. Zinsco became Sylvania who later became Challenger, Westinghouse bought Challenger & substituted Westinghouse breakers for Challengers product, after Eaton bought the distribution & controls div. of Westinghouse, Challenger & the Westinghouse safety switch line was sold to T&B, it later disappeared for reasons unknown.

Eaton does sell panel retrofit kits, but in the OP's case it would be cheaper & quicker to just replace the Zinsco/Sylvania loadcenter, but if it's been off for a while, a electrical inspection most likely be required before it would be turned back on. A call to Pacific Graft & Extortion, PG&E will settle that question.

 

[jwvess00]

Hi there!

It would be cheaper in the short-term to add circuits to the existing box, like you're talking. Having the meter turned back on may take some legwork and definitely some fees up-front (i.e. reconnection fee). You may have a non-zero minimum bill every month just for having service, even if you didn't use any power (I'm not familiar with PGE).

That said, I'd still figure out what it will cost to have that old panel replaced (either by you or someone else), and unless the money is just really lopsided, go with the separate meter. It gets you good electric rates, and having an electric bill separate from your landlord's bill (if I understand the arrangement) will be good for both of you. If you can get your landlord to help pay for this upgrade to their property, even better, since it can benefit them with respect to future tenants.

 

[coma13]

Hi there!

It would be cheaper in the short-term to add circuits to the existing box, like you're talking. Having the meter turned back on may take some legwork and definitely some fees up-front (i.e. reconnection fee). You may have a non-zero minimum bill every month just for having service, even if you didn't use any power (I'm not familiar with PGE).

That said, I'd still figure out what it will cost to have that old panel replaced (either by you or someone else), and unless the money is just really lopsided, go with the separate meter. It gets you good electric rates, and having an electric bill separate from your landlord's bill (if I understand the arrangement) will be good for both of you. If you can get your landlord to help pay for this upgrade to their property, even better, since it can benefit them with respect to future tenants.

That's kind of what I am thinking. The convenience of having a separate bill for all my energy expenditures is really appealing. The hardware costs are pretty slim for me to install a new panel, the big question will be what the PG&E costs are.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

All you need is one more 20/20 tandem breaker like the one you have (red handles), there is space for it. Probably can find them from one of the internet specialty places that sell obsolete breakers. Since this is temporary I'd do that before I'd spend money on a whole new panel that you really don't need.

Charles

 

[coma13]

All you need is one more 20/20 tandem breaker like the one you have (red handles), there is space for it. Probably can find them from one of the internet specialty places that sell obsolete breakers. Since this is temporary I'd do that before I'd spend money on a whole new panel that you really don't need.

Charles

Looks like I can find Zinsco breakers on eBay for a wide range of prices. The question then becomes, do I try to reactivate service from the other meter and power this directly, or feed it from the other active panel?

 

[CNGsaves]

Well the ultimate CHEAPEST will be to just Sub-Meter the garage with that 2nd meter. However, there could be local codes against that, and PG&E might not like it and actually own that 2nd meter. This scenario would also have you paying whatever per Kw rate of the main electrical feed (thus no lower Ag rate). I would NOT do this unless it's all kosher with local codes and homeowner wants this done.

To get information you want, I'd call PG&E and "mystery shop" that 2nd meter and see what the base charge per month might be . . . ie like $16 or $20 per month plus the cost of Ag rate electricity ???

Likely easiest code wise to not replace the panel as "remodel" would force you to update ALL electrical to current codes. For your "rental" situation, I'd recommend adding breakers and working with what you have.

/ my 2 cents

 

[coma13]

Well the ultimate CHEAPEST will be to just Sub-Meter the garage with that 2nd meter. However, there could be local codes against that, and PG&E might not like it and actually own that 2nd meter. This scenario would also have you paying whatever per Kw rate of the main electrical feed (thus no lower Ag rate). I would NOT do this unless it's all kosher with local codes and homeowner wants this done.

To get information you want, I'd call PG&E and "mystery shop" that 2nd meter and see what the base charge per month might be . . . ie like $16 or $20 per month plus the cost of Ag rate electricity ???

Likely easiest code wise to not replace the panel as "remodel" would force you to update ALL electrical to current codes. For your "rental" situation, I'd recommend adding breakers and working with what you have.

/ my 2 cents

If I were to call, what would I be asking, exactly?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

PG&E allows a separate "Agricultural Meter" for maintaining a well to water livestock. I'm assuming that is what you have. Too bad he had the service turned off because Ag Rate is $.09 per Kw

Other then that you'll have to be feed off the main service to the house

cheaper to go the auction and get a couple lambs and reapply for the ag service then refeeding the outbuildings

Where are u getting the ag rate as being .09 cents/Kwh? I just checked Profit's Gone Elsewhere's(PG&E) rate schedules and AG-1 is way higher than that. Plus, the OP wouldnt qualify because it would be for single motor load(ie a pump) which he doesnt have!! Also, the tariff schedule says 70% or more of the annual energy use has to go towrds agricultural end uses. Read the following for more detail:

http://www.pge.com/tariffs/tm2/pdf/ELEC_SCHEDS_AG-1.pdf

All of PG&Es rates can be found here:

http://www.pge.com/tariffs/ERS.SHTML#ERS

The property is actually a functioning farm. Chickens, horses, etc...

However, thats not what you will be using it for and therefore PGE wont approve u to be on an ag rate!

I'm no code expert, especially when it comes to farm/ranch specific wiring, so you need to get this confirmed. In general, you are not allowed to have 2 separate feeds supplying power to a building. If the first panel you mentioned is feed from the house or directly from the meter, this would put the owner in violation.

It maybe old, but it looks to be in good condition. Why not use it ? What brand and model. You usually can get breakers even for old panels.

If you feed that first box from the one, you should be legal.

I'm not going to look it up in the NEC right now but yes it is allowed - has to be a separate outbuilding thou

Its an old Zenco panel and Challenger makes a replacement buss bar set that converts them over to Challenger breakers. Zenco has been out of business for some time and the breakers became costly and difficult to find for a while

The oldwizard is correct. U cant have 2 separate power sources feeding the same building which the OP will have if he turns on the second meter because he said one outlet and one light is running off the other meter!

Thanks for all the feedback guys.

This is the "other" panel that supplies the power to the other barns and the house on the property, and the one circuit in use on the front of the garage. This is the one with power running to it, currently.

These are the two meters on the outside of the garage. The right one is the one that is connected to the unused panel, and the one on the left is the one feeding into the powered panel that supplies everything else.

EDIT: MAJOR "A-HA" MOMENT

That 125A breaker on the "other" panel is what supplies power to the house. The single 20A circuit is what runs power to the lights in the other bars. This is the main point of entry for the power to the property.

This is the subpanel in the house, and it's directory:

I was initially thinking it would be preferable to have the separate meter running the garage only, for ease of payment on my part. Is that the best course of action? Should I run it off of the currently used panel instead? Or should I just add all my circuits to the currently used panel and ditch the separate panel idea entirely?

FYI- if u do decide to use that second meter, then that outlet and light that is currently powered by the first meter will need to be rewired so its powered bu the new second meter! U cant have 2 different power sources feeding the same building!

And i think having your own meter is the best way to go that way u know that youre only paying for your usage!

That's kind of what I am thinking. The convenience of having a separate bill for all my energy expenditures is really appealing. The hardware costs are pretty slim for me to install a new panel, the big question will be what the PG&E costs are.

The best place to start is to check their rates here:

http://www.pge.com/tariffs/ERS.SHTML#ERS

Looks like I can find Zinsco breakers on eBay for a wide range of prices. The question then becomes, do I try to reactivate service from the other meter and power this directly, or feed it from the other active panel?

As i said above, having your own meter is the best!

Well the ultimate CHEAPEST will be to just Sub-Meter the garage with that 2nd meter. However, there could be local codes against that, and PG&E might not like it and actually own that 2nd meter. This scenario would also have you paying whatever per Kw rate of the main electrical feed (thus no lower Ag rate). I would NOT do this unless it's all kosher with local codes and homeowner wants this done.

To get information you want, I'd call PG&E and "mystery shop" that 2nd meter and see what the base charge per month might be . . . ie like $16 or $20 per month plus the cost of Ag rate electricity ???

Likely easiest code wise to not replace the panel as "remodel" would force you to update ALL electrical to current codes. For your "rental" situation, I'd recommend adding breakers and working with what you have.

/ my 2 cents

Ive NEVER paid a monthly meter fee or flat rate fee to PGE on residential accounts! They build those fees into the rates.

If I were to call, what would I be asking, exactly?

You would ask them what rate schedule you are eligible for and if there will be any monthly flat rate meter fees. Also, how much it would be to start service.
As i said above Ive never been charged a monthly meter fee nor startup/connection fees but all Ive ever had was PG&E residential accounts!!

 

[coma13]

Update:

I called PG&E today and had the power on the latent meter turned on in my name. Completely hassle free (aside from ridiculous hold times). The mental giant who plugged in my account info answered, after a fair bit of prodding as to what the service was, that "It has one phase service, 320 amps."

Can I assume that means that I can draw service for a 300a breaker from the meter?

It is clear to me that the panel that is in place now is limited to 100a, due to the breaker arrangement:

I really want 3 20a 110v circuits, and a minimum of 1 30a 220v circuit. Should I just max out this panel, or install a larger load center and not limit myself?

 

[Norcal]

You have a Zinsco/Sylvania* 20A twin breaker there,& a 30A full size breaker, but be prepared for sticker shock for any replacements, Chinese UL classified knockoffs are sold at the big box stores. BTW PG&E does not supply either 110 or 220 volts, they provide a nominal 120,or 240 volts & if you watch the display of the smart meter, it will display the line to line voltage supplied.

They (Zinsco) are obsolete but really common because they were cheap & home centers were pushing them at one time. Friedman Bro. in Santa Rosa used to sell it.

 

[Mustang51js]

Just change the panel to a new 100 amp panel, then take the plastic tabs off the back of the meter and bam you have power to the panel. The meter won't display anything without power to part of it,so you do have power there. Free electric till you get caught. Woohoo
I see your update that you had it "turned" back on lol, that panel should take about 15 minutes to swap out with a new one and $50,and btw you still have to pull the meter out to change the panel so would've had to do it anyway.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Update:

I called PG&E today and had the power on the latent meter turned on in my name. Completely hassle free (aside from ridiculous hold times). The mental giant who plugged in my account info answered, after a fair bit of prodding as to what the service was, that "It has one phase service, 320 amps."

Can I assume that means that I can draw service for a 300a breaker from the meter?

It is clear to me that the panel that is in place now is limited to 100a, due to the breaker arrangement:

I really want 3 20a 110v circuits, and a minimum of 1 30a 220v circuit. Should I just max out this panel, or install a larger load center and not limit myself?

Did u fix the multiple feeds to the detached building violation? If u want multiple circuits to the detache barn them u will have to run a feeder and put in a subpanel.

Did u find out what KwHr rate u will be on??