Help me heat my garage...

[moneyisflying]

Alright, so this is my first post on the forum, so let me start by saying "hello", and that I am looking forward to being a part of this community.

I am located in northeastern Indiana, so we do get some decent winters. Currently it is -15 F, not including the windshield factor.

I have a 3 car garage on my year and a half old house I built. In the winter it gets very cold (probably just a few degrees warmer than the ambient outside temp). And I would like info on how to heat my garage so its warm enough to go out in it in the winter and be able to work comfortably.

In my mind, this is a 3 step process;

Step #1, accurately asses the current insulation and area to best determine the course of action.

Step #2, insulate as needed

Step #3, purchase appropriate heater to heat the area.


All of these steps I will need help with.

I will go out and take a few pictures to help get information so you guys can better point me in the right direction.

 

[Randy in Maine]

Also tell us how you heat the house and what fuel you use or what fuel is available. Forced hot air or water or what.

 

[moneyisflying]

Here is an overall look at the garage. The back side is the house, and the walls have all been insulated with the standard fiberglass insulation.

The one set of windows I have are double pained, and in excellent shape (past being a little dirty). The loft has 12" of ground newspaper type insulation.

The garage doors themselves have what looks to be about 1 1/2" of styrofoam insulation. However I don't know that this is enough, as you can see the frost formation around where the parts of the door seal against each other while the door is closed.

The biggest place I believe I am loosing heat is near the corners of the garage door. You can't see it in this picture, because outside the garage door currently is about a foot of snow, but on a normal not snowed in day you can visibly see daylight through the corners.

 

[moneyisflying]

Also tell us how you heat the house and what fuel you use or what fuel is available. Forced hot air or water or what.

The house is heated by geothermal. Everything I have in the house is electric. I do not have a propane tank or any natural gas lines.

Ideally, I would like to insulate the garage to the extent I can purchase an electrical heater such as this to heat the garage when I want to venture out and work;

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Fahrenheat-5-000-Watt-Unit-Heater-FUH54/202043073#.UsrqDPRDuSo


I know electric is not as efficient as gas, but I would rather spend a bit more in insulating, than putting in the extra effort to get some kind of natural gas heater, or propane that I will have to keep filling.

Here is something else I found interesting. Even with the temps as they are today, my garage has somehow made it a degree or so above freezing (normally it does not do this). I had the garage door open today, so you see the snow, but last night when I pulled my car in it was covered in 3 inches of snow, and all but 1 inch was melted thismorning. I am thinking that somehow with the snow sealing in the garage door, that this has in itself insulated the corners of the garage door where the air had been previously escaping.

Thoughts?

 

[Jaspel]

As far as electric goes this 4000w in wall heater is working well for me. I keep it at around 40deg and have the garage well insulated. A ceiling fan or two would help spread the air around.

 

[moneyisflying]

I would like to figure out the heater, but honestly that should be the easy part. There are a wide variety to choose from, all at different power levels.

The difficult part that I really need help with is assessing what ways I can better insulate my garage so that whatever heater I do decide to go with won't have to run harder than it needs to or longer than it needs to to hold a comfortable temperature in my garage.

 

[Scottwi]

Sealing the air leaks around the garbage doors will do wonders for heat lose. I recently replaced/added a weather strip behind the vinyl one that comes attached to the molding you find at the big box stores. It made a big difference and our 3 car attached garage now maintains a 35-40 temp with out a heater. Bringing 2 cars with warm engines helps.

I purchased a weather strip from Frost King and used it in place of the one with the thin vinyl attached to the plastic molding. I thin put the molding back on to conceal the Frost King behind it.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000B4IWN2/?tag=atomicindus08-20

It was -13 this morning and the garage temp on the house wall was 38.

 

[blaperle]

An electric unit heater like you selected is a good choice for your application. I would suggest a heat loss calculation to determine the propper size although I think your in the neighborhood. Hang it from the ceiling or high wall this prevents it from being oobstructed and possibly a remote thermostat fo easy operation.
Brian

 

[moneyisflying]

Sealing the air leaks around the garbage doors will do wonders for heat lose. I recently replaced/added a weather strip behind the vinyl one that comes attached to the molding you find at the big box stores. It made a big difference and our 3 car attached garage now maintains a 35-40 temp with out a heater. Bringing 2 cars with warm engines helps.

I purchased a weather strip from Frost King and used it in place of the one with the thin vinyl attached to the plastic molding. I thin put the molding back on to conceal the Frost King behind it.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000B4IWN2/?tag=atomicindus08-20

It was -13 this morning and the garage temp on the house wall was 38.

Thanks for the info and the link. Do you have any pictures of your setup up close so I can see exactly how you installed it?

An electric unit heater like you selected is a good choice for your application. I would suggest a heat loss calculation to determine the propper size although I think your in the neighborhood. Hang it from the ceiling or high wall this prevents it from being oobstructed and possibly a remote thermostat fo easy operation.
Brian

I think that heater should do the trick. It may even be a bit overkill. I was thinking the same thing as you of installing it near the ceiling in a corner. It takes a 220 Volt plug, and I don't have one in my garage, but my breaker box is located in the garage so I was thinking of installing one.

I agree 100% with figuring a good heat loss ratio, I just don't know how to calculate that.

Other than the corners and around the garage doors themselves, where would be my next leading cause of heat loss in the garage? I have seen some kits that install additional styrofoam sheets behind your garage door. I really don't know how much is lost through the doors themselves, but I was thinking it might be the next biggest heat loss source.

Thoughts?

 

[RAMBIN]

The house is heated by geothermal. Everything I have in the house is electric. I do not have a propane tank or any natural gas lines.

Ideally, I would like to insulate the garage to the extent I can purchase an electrical heater such as this to heat the garage when I want to venture out and work;

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Fahrenheat-5-000-Watt-Unit-Heater-FUH54/202043073#.UsrqDPRDuSo


I know electric is not as efficient as gas, but I would rather spend a bit more in insulating, than putting in the extra effort to get some kind of natural gas heater, or propane that I will have to keep filling.

Here is something else I found interesting. Even with the temps as they are today, my garage has somehow made it a degree or so above freezing (normally it does not do this). I had the garage door open today, so you see the snow, but last night when I pulled my car in it was covered in 3 inches of snow, and all but 1 inch was melted thismorning. I am thinking that somehow with the snow sealing in the garage door, that this has in itself insulated the corners of the garage door where the air had been previously escaping.

Thoughts?

actually electric is the only 100 percent efficient option for heat now relax I didn't say It was the cheapest but its is the most efficient u get every drop of power u pay for transformed into heat.. mind u u pay the premium for it..i'd be looking at getting a big propane tank put behind the garage with a propane heater inside...just my 2 cents

 

[rodm1]

I know electric is not as efficient as gas, but I would rather spend a bit more in insulating, than putting in the extra effort to get some kind of natural gas heater, or propane that I will have to keep filling.

Well a backup plan for heat or other things if the power goes out would be a good idea. You never know when the power grids will fail. I would look into LP depending on how much you plan on using the garage heater you might be able to getaway with only a 120gl tank (size of a large air compressor tank). You could use it for a backup generator and grilling to. Filling is only a phone call away very easy.

 

[moneyisflying]

If the power goes out, I doubt I'll be wanting to tackle some projects in the garage, which is really the whole purpose of all of this. Like I said before, I know going with an electric heater will be more costly to run than gas. But I have seen and been in garages that have been insulated so well that they keep a good temperature just on their own. Introduce a heater for just a short period of time and they will be warm for hours with not much use. My cousins pole barn has a much larger electric heater than the one I posted in the link. In the dead of winter, he will run the electric heater for maybe 15-20 minutes, and it will stay above 60 for half the day inside the pole barn. He works almost every other day out there in his 40'x60' pole barn, and he says the difference in electricity from using it to not is $20-$30 per month max in the coldest months. To me that price is negledgable, and would be happier spending that than staring at a large propane tank in my yard all year long.

My point here is insulation can make a very large difference. Just the snow covering the holes at the bottom of my garage door was enough to make almost a 35 degree difference in my garage from the outside temp compared to when the holes are there (I am only assuming this is the cause, as I don't know for sure).

 

[Randy in Maine]

I don't suppose you have PEX tubing in the garage slab do you?

Electric is not an option for me as it is about 14 cents a KW.

Get those doors all nice and leak proof first.

 

[blaperle]

actually electric is the only 100 percent efficient option for heat now relax I didn't say It was the cheapest but its is the most efficient u get every drop of power u pay for transformed into heat.. mind u u pay the premium for it..i'd be looking at getting a big propane tank put behind the garage with a propane heater inside...just my 2 cents

This is true but it's referred to as COP coefficient of performance electric heat has a COP of 1 meaning you get 3.41 BTUs for every 1 watt input. This is mistaken for efficiency but it is just a simple conversion of input to thermal energy. Heat pumps typically have COP in the 3 to 20 range depending on there source this means 10 to 65 BTUs per watt input. this is my definition of efficient. In other words resistant heat is efficient at directly converting electrical input directly too heat but is inefficient based on the wattage input compared too the BTU output with todays technology.

Brian

 

[Handyman163]

I have a 3-car garage attached to the house in SW Michigan with similar insulation situation to yours. I use 2 different kerosene heaters depending on how quickly I need it heated or how long I plan to run them. I maintain the temp between 38 and 60 degrees despite it being below 30 most of the winter (and it's -10 outside right now with the garage at 50). I have a 9800BTU (small) radiant kero heater and a larger 23kBTU convection (larger) kero heater. To work out there and heat quickly, I burn the large one about 2-6 hours during the day. If I'm not doing much out there, I just burn the smaller one most of the day (~9-12 hours). The large one will burn 12 hours on 1.9 gallons of kerosene, and the small one will burn about 24 hours on 1.9 gallons of kerosene. I do this to make the space usable, but also to keep a fridge I have out there working well. I also NEVER leave the garage doors open longer than needed to pull in or unload, etc.

I always start the small heater outside because it takes it a while to burn without smell, but the large one gets going quickly so I light it inside. I always shut them both down outside the back door of the garage and leave them for about 5-10 minutes to cool. That way the smell is very minimum and not offensive to work in there.

I can get kerosene at the pump (not K-1, but the 500ppm max Sulfur grade which is still clear) for $4.45 per gallon ($4.35 last year) and probably spend $10-$20 per week heating it to target 55 degrees. Of course parking 2 warm cars in there everyday after work helps a lot too.

Once burning cleanly, the heaters can be brought inside in the case of a power outage and serve as backup heat in that case, but I use them all winter for the garage as needed. This may not be the best choice for everyone, but it sure works well for me.

 

[GMBracing]

what heat do you have in your house, if its hot water just add another zone and put a modine style heater in the upper corner. It keeps my 4 car space at 50 deg with out a problem and when I want to work out there I turn its thermostat up for a while. using a programmable thermostat It will revert to the 50 deg settin automatically it I forget to turn it down myself

 

[LennyTheLizard]

Options:

1. Contact you utility company and see if they offer energy audits. Some do it free or for a small nominal fee. Most that charge a fee will return your money if you implement their suggestions.
- They will tell you if your insulation is good enough and how many leaks you have.
- They will usually give you a payback calculation on how quickly your investments will pay off.


2. Just seal up all the leaks you can. Foam seals behind your electrical outlets, seal up those door leaks with weatherstripping, if you have any recessed lights, caulk around the openings. You could rig up a fan in a window or door blowing out. Then walk around a feel for the air leaks coming in the house or use an incense stick and watch the smoke for leaks.

3. Amazon.com sells a fairly inexpensive IR thermal imager. I've never used one so I don't know how well they work, but it's similar to what the energy auditor used. It will show you where your cold spots are.

 

[moneyisflying]

I don't suppose you have PEX tubing in the garage slab do you?

Electric is not an option for me as it is about 14 cents a KW.

Get those doors all nice and leak proof first.

I actually do have PEX tubing in my house, but not in the garage slab unfortunately. I know I need to get the leaks sealed up and will look into the weather stripping linked above, but am curious of the install. Anyone have any pics showing it? Also, I would love some input on insulation and the garage doors themselves. Anyone ever done it? Anyone know if what I have currently is actually sufficient enough? Anyone have any other suggestions on insulation?

I like he idea of the incense candle and finding leaks, and the IR gun is not a bad idea if I wanted to go crazy with it. But right now, I already know near the doors are the coldest place.

I have actually used a salamander in the garage before a few times. My brother in law let me have his very old one. It did a good job, until the fuel tank sprung a leak, and I ended up throwing it away. My neighbor had a very powerfull one I borrowed, but I found them to make the garage very sooty, and fumes were bad enough to make my eyes water and difficult to breath, and even though they would heat the garage nicely, the temps would drop fairly quickly and I would have to burn them again.

I am interested in getting more info on a heat pump as I know they are efficient, but I think I heard they were costly, and just as before, I would rather not dump a bunch of money in the heating unit as much as I would rather invest in insulating better.

I also have heard by insulating your garage better, in turn your furnace would not have to work as hard to hear your house. I don't know how much of this is true.

I am good friends with my builder, and I could always ask him also if he had any thoughts on improving the insulation.

 

[bfarroo]

I'm wondering where your heat is going? I have a similar 3 car garage in Green Bay WI and my garage typically stays around 30-35 degrees warmer than the outside temperature. My walls are insulated with 24" R13 bats and I have maybe 6 inches of blown in insulation in the ceiling. Doors are insulated but I haven't noticed the frost like your picture shows. I know there are different R value doors out there and you want to make sure they are the foamed in place where the entire door cavity is basically spray foamed instead of an insert that will leak around the edges. I have a 75,000 BTU gas heater and it will bring the garage up to an acceptable temperature in about 10-15 minutes and have it up to around 65 in a half hour.

 

[nmcqueen469]

Welcome to GJ neighbor! Where are you located?

 

[moneyisflying]

I'm wondering where your heat is going? I have a similar 3 car garage in Green Bay WI and my garage typically stays around 30-35 degrees warmer than the outside temperature. My walls are insulated with 24" R13 bats and I have maybe 6 inches of blown in insulation in the ceiling. Doors are insulated but I haven't noticed the frost like your picture shows. I know there are different R value doors out there and you want to make sure they are the foamed in place where the entire door cavity is basically spray foamed instead of an insert that will leak around the edges. I have a 75,000 BTU gas heater and it will bring the garage up to an acceptable temperature in about 10-15 minutes and have it up to around 65 in a half hour.

Well, I'm not 100% sure where exactly my warm air is going. But for sure a lot is leaking from the holes in the corners of the garage door. I'll seal those up very first, and as soon as I can figure out how to install the above linked insulation strips around the door, I'll probably do that also. Next I "think" the garage doors are the next thing that need improved. You noticed the frost in the pics. The coldest part in the garage is definately near the doors. It was hard to notice, but in one of my pics, it does show the insulation inside my garage doors is in fact the standard white styrofoam sheets. I wish they were the spray foam but they are not. Again I would love input from anyone who has done the extra insulation on the back of the garage door for info.

Welcome to GJ neighbor! Where are you located?

Well, pretty close since I see you also live in Whitley county

I'm just south of Columbia City, just a little off of state road 9. It may be a coincidence, but I am on a few car forums and I think I recognize your user name. I go by CALL911, but couldn't use it here because it had been taken. That's my 95 Z28 under the car cover.

 

[Scottwi]

Sorry I don't have better pictures, snapped these on the way out this morning.

I installed the Frost King strip as tight as I could without binding the door. I then put the plastic trim with the vinyl on it over the top to give it another layer of wind stop and to make it look better.

 

[Scottwi]

Forgot to mention the frost between the panels and on the door handle are due to the cold metal transfers the cold to the the inside. When metal pipes like gas lines are run through the wall they are wrapped with electrical tape and that stops the frost on the inside. I have not found a way to prevent that on the garage door. I even put a strip of foam between the panels and I still have some frost.

I don't think anything will prevent it 100% when it is -60 wind chill.

 

[moneyisflying]

Thanks Scottwi!

 

[vrocket]

I built a 30x30 shop with 12 ft ceilings in colorado and it gets cold here. It is well insulated and tried using a electric heater 220 volt last year was just to costly. I thus switched to a pellet stove. I do have race deck floor which helps keep floor warmer.

 

[moneyisflying]

So I plan on purchasing the new weather stripping that Scottwi suggested. What do you all recommend to seal up the holes at the bottom of the garage door with?

Also, has anyone had any experience with this;?

http://www.lowes.com/pd_331443-1722..._product_qty_sales_dollar|1&searchQueryType=1

 

[Whirnot]

Obviously, you want to seal all the leaks first. Then contact your heating company and see if there is a way to tap into your geothemal system. it will be far more efficient than anything else you can install.

FWIW, I have a similar setup with a three car garage and just use a small propane Radiant heater mounted on a 100 pound propane tank. Even on the lowest setting it will run me out after a while, and I typically fill it less than once a year.

 

[aka Larry]

I am located in northeastern Indiana, so we do get some decent winters. Currently it is -15 F, not including the windshield factor.

How do you factor in a windshield?

 

[moneyisflying]

Obviously, you want to seal all the leaks first. Then contact your heating company and see if there is a way to tap into your geothemal system. it will be far more efficient than anything else you can install.

FWIW, I have a similar setup with a three car garage and just use a small propane Radiant heater mounted on a 100 pound propane tank. Even on the lowest setting it will run me out after a while, and I typically fill it less than once a year.

I have actually contacted them today just to look at the possibility. The good news is they can tap into it. The bad part is I'll be looking in the thousand plus dollar range to get it done. I spoke with them for a little while, they also said the cheapest route would be to better insulate than worrying about utilizing a heat source that would require that kind of work.

Like I said before (a couple times), if I can insulate it to the point it will hold a much better temp on its own, I am confident I won't be spending too much monthly on an electric heater to bump it up a little when I want to go in the garage and work.


Has anyone had any experience using something like this?
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B007A2QMN0/?tag=atomicindus08-20


Can someone explain R values for me? I did a little google search and got a LOT more info than I needed, and it just confused me. Simply, does a higher R value equal a better insulator?

 

[moneyisflying]

How do you factor in a windshield?

Sorry my phone autocorrected lol. I meant "wind chill".

 

[moneyisflying]

Okay, so I just spoke with my builder, he suggested sealing up the doors also, but he said my loft above the garage is only 6" of the blow in insulation and has an R factor of R19 (still need to learn the value system). He mentioned doubling that would certainly help and he believes that would be the next biggest place that the heat is going (more so than the garage doors).

So, he is getting me a price on doubling the blow in insulation on the loft.

 

[moneyisflying]

Alright, I found that the higher R value, the higher/better insulation value something holds.

What would be a good R value for a garage door?

 

[moneyisflying]

So I purchased the weather stripping, and also and indoor/outdoor thermometer so I can tell the exact difference between inside and out.

 

[nmcqueen469]

Well, pretty close since I see you also live in Whitley county

I'm just south of Columbia City, just a little off of state road 9. It may be a coincidence, but I am on a few car forums and I think I recognize your user name. I go by CALL911, but couldn't use it here because it had been taken. That's my 95 Z28 under the car cover.

HA! Small world. No coincidence at all.

 

[moneyisflying]

HA! Small world. No coincidence at all.

Yeah

Where in Whitley are you? Are you from this area?

 

[nmcqueen469]

Yeah



Where in Whitley are you? Are you from this area?

A little south and a little west of 9&14.

 

[moneyisflying]

A little south and a little west of 9&14.

Well, we are practically neighbors

 

[[email protected]]

Yes, the higher the R value, the better. My doors are R-17 which from what I've seen are the best. I live in northern New York, near Canada with cold temps like you. You definitely need to add insulation to the loft area. I would maybe even triple it. We have 16-18 inches of insulation in our attic. I have the standard vinyl weather stripping on my doors and they leak like you wouldn't believe. I've spent some time tonight on this website and a lot of people suggest the vinyl on the outside and the brush seal on the inside. We are going to try that. There are some good pictures. It from a 2010 post. Search for sealing garage. Sometime around 2/2010 with 3 pages of comments.

 

[moneyisflying]

Yes, the higher the R value, the better. My doors are R-17 which from what I've seen are the best. I live in northern New York, near Canada with cold temps like you. You definitely need to add insulation to the loft area. I would maybe even triple it. We have 16-18 inches of insulation in our attic. I have the standard vinyl weather stripping on my doors and they leak like you wouldn't believe. I've spent some time tonight on this website and a lot of people suggest the vinyl on the outside and the brush seal on the inside. We are going to try that. There are some good pictures. It from a 2010 post. Search for sealing garage. Sometime around 2/2010 with 3 pages of comments.

Thank you for the info.

I'll be adding more insulation to the attic for sure, and my additional weather stripping is in the mail. I bought insulation today for all the outlets and light switches.

I found another place I know I am loosing heat. I have a custom doggy door in the wall of my garage. It's locked now but the only thing between the garage and the outside it 3/4" ply wood. I need to get some insulation and install it behind the door to take care of that.

I need some advice on this next topic; garage doors. I have heard a lot on both sides whether I am loosing heat from the doors themselves or not. They are insulated with 1 1/2" styrofoam insulation inside the door panels themselves. My bouilder believes this is enough and does not think I am loosing anything. The insulation company believes I am loosing some, but very minor amounts, and that much more is lost in the seals around the garage doors. The tech associate at Lowes who has worked insulation for over a decade believes I am loosing a bit from the doors themselves. It would be best to just insulate everything to cover all my bases, but I don't have an unlimited budget, and would rather spend money wisely on what will make the biggest difference if I can't afford it all. I bought some thin reflective roll insulation that I can cut and hopefully install on the back of the garage doors at Lowes today for $100. I still need to figure out how I'm going to install them as it is not a kit (a garage door kit for my sized doors is more than $200). I still have the reciept, and may return it if I can't figure a good way to install it, or if I find that it won't really make much of a difference.

Any thoughts on this? To me I think I'm loosing some because there is visible frost on the back sides of the doors. But my builder and mostly the insulation guy both think I'm not really losing much if anything, so if I could return it and save $100 to invest elsewhere, I would like to.

 

[moneyisflying]

Okay, so here's where things are at.

I had the builder come out and inspect, and he strongly believes 90% of my heat loss is coming from the attic/loft above my garage.

I have an appointment on Monday to have the insulation guy come out and inspect and quote me a price on more insulation. I think I am going to go with an additional 8 inches which brings the total to 14" of insulation.

I returned the insulation panels and got my $100 back for the garage doors. I was really hoping for more input on insulation on here, but it seems mostly am getting advice on a heat source (which is the easy part I didn't really need too much help with).