Insulating existing recess cans in vaulted ceiling - Suggestions please?

[Cemoto]

Hello -

We have a vaulted/cathedral ceiling in our family room built in 1986.

I've taken a photo to show how we are experiencing heat loss through the can area. It is always easy to spot when there is a light snow. This has been going on since the house was new. The same thing happens on the second floor bathroom as you can see from the photo.

Short of ripping them out, re-blueboarding and plastering I'm hoping for some suggestions to better insulate the area.

I have replaced the bulbs w/ larger spot light bulbs and used a rubber gasket beneath the bulb where it meets the recess trim. Still no luck.

I've read where there is now expandable fireproof foam and was thinking of filling the cavity but will that work and is it safe to do so?

Thought I would throw it out to the guys for any recommendations.

Thank you very much!

Regards,

 

[Rookie2]

maybe an L E D lamp ? does it create any ice or other problem ?

 

[MrMark]

Are these IC (insulation contact) rated cans? You need IC cans to drape the insulation right over the top of them. If not IC rated you have to hold back your insulation. Light cans are a huge heat loss item in most houses so you are not alone.

 

[Cemoto]

Are these IC (insulation contact) rated cans? You need IC cans to drape the insulation right over the top of them. Light cans are a huge heat loss item in most houses so you are not alone.

I have no idea what they are, they were buried behind blueboard and plaster.

There is no access to them except to change the bulbs.

We rarely use them and if so for just a few min.

I was thinking about that expandable foam.

It is time to paint the room again, so once I get the staging up I'll have easier access to the interior.

Remove the bulbs and spray expandable fireproof foam from inside the cans (drill access holes if needed) around the exterior of the can???

.

 

[Stuart in MN]

If you pull out the bulb and look inside, you may be able to find a label that indicates if they are IC rated or not. As mentioned, don't put in any insulation unless you know they are.

 

[frankush]

Chances are that nothing short of pulling them out and insulating the area where they were, is going to help. The fixtures are going to give off heat. The distance between the roof sheathing and the top of the can is probably 3 inches or less. If you went with a very shallow can that was IC rated (think 5 inches deep), you may be able to get enough insulation above them to alleviate the problem. Spray foam in a DIY kit would be your best bet. At a rating of R7 per inch, it will probably equal or exceed what's in the rest of the ceiling.

 

[Rookie2]

Some of those cans have a thermal cut out switch, if you over insulate you may create more problems with the fixture overheating and the lamp will cycle on and off.

 

[JoeFin]

I seem to remember sliding the can part down out of the ceiling when the rest of the fixture was still in place. Don't remember the brand - I'm assuming Halo or Juno.

 

[frankush]

Some of those cans have a thermal cut out switch, if you over insulate you may create more problems with the fixture overheating and the lamp will cycle on and off.

They all have thermal cutouts. If the can is IC rated, insulate all you want outside of the housing. Part of the reason for the thermal unit, is to prevent fires when people oversize the wattage of the lamp. The trim is the determining factor for lamp wattage almost always.

 

[2ManyProjects]

Hello -

We have a vaulted/cathedral ceiling in our family room built in 1986.

I've taken a photo to show how we are experiencing heat loss through the can area. It is always easy to spot when there is a light snow. This has been going on since the house was new. The same thing happens on the second floor bathroom as you can see from the photo.

As others have noted, the odds are those are NOT IC-rated cans, particularly if they were spec'd and installed by the builder (to whom "cheapest possible way out" nearly always overwhelms any decision). If that is the case, you CANNOT add additional insulation, without creating a fire risk.

Short of ripping them out, re-blueboarding and plastering I'm hoping for some suggestions to better insulate the area.

I would PROBABLY look at replacing them with cans which ARE IC-rated, and adding insulation in the process. If you stick with the same size cans/trims, that MIGHT at least save you the hassle of patching the blueboard/plaster (presuming you can swap out the cans without needing a larger access hole).

I have replaced the bulbs w/ larger spot light bulbs and used a rubber gasket beneath the bulb where it meets the recess trim. Still no luck.

That MAY have helped reduce direct air leakage somewhat; but it near-certainly would be completely ineffective against heat loss due to convection in the air above the can (which is likely the main method of heat loss in this case).

I've read where there is now expandable fireproof foam and was thinking of filling the cavity but will that work and is it safe to do so?

I say again: Unless those cans are IC-rated, you CANNOT safely add additional insulation. Period.

maybe an L E D lamp ? does it create any ice or other problem ?

Unless I am seriously misreading the OP's issue, the energy used (and therefore the heat produced) by the bulbs is NOT the problem. The issue is "leakage" of the (already paid for, dearly) interior heat through the fixtures, regardless of whether or not they are in operation.

I have no idea what they are, they were buried behind blueboard and plaster.

You really do need to KNOW what you're dealing with, before making assumptions.

Remove the bulbs and spray expandable fireproof foam from inside the cans (drill access holes if needed) around the exterior of the can???

Don't do that. No matter how you slice it, it would be a VERY risky proposition.

Even if your cans are IC-rated, that foam would either "go everywhere" in the cavity between your blueboard and roof sheathing, without ever forming an even marginally contiguous "blanket" around/above the fixture, and thus be useless; OR, if it were somehow constrained (perhaps by blocking between the rafters or similar), it could very easily expand enough, and with sufficient force-over-area, to cause damage to the can itself, and/or the ceiling, and/or the roof, by the time you got enough of it in there to do you any good thermally.

If you pull out the bulb and look inside, you may be able to find a label that indicates if they are IC rated or not. As mentioned, don't put in any insulation unless you know they are.

THIS!

 

[Cemoto]

^

Thank you for your detailed responses.

Not exactly what I wanted to read, but I realize I just may be stuck w/ this heat leakage. I don't really want to ruin the nice smooth ceiling w/ a patch job or pay the $.

It did dawn on me that I have some of the same fixtures in the basement so I pulled a bulb this morning and took a few shots.

The cans are Progress Lighting and appear to be not IC rated as there is a warning label stating to keep insulation away at least three inches.....

Funny thing, the electrician was the fire chief in a small nearby town (volunteer), you think he would have suggested something different.

The idea of installing LED might be an option I hadn't thought of.

The master switch is a rotating dimmer so we can adjust output.

Will LED be able to do this?

Since the LED are smaller do you think I could disconnect and then sawzall the can into pieces from the inside, insulate, then install an LED?

I'm up for any suggestions except new blueboard and plaster.

Will LED work (illuminate well) from a height of 16'?

Many thanks again guys!

.


.

 

[2ManyProjects]

^

Thank you for your detailed responses.

Not exactly what I wanted to read, but I realize I just may be stuck w/ this heat leakage. I don't really want to ruin the nice smooth ceiling w/ a patch job or pay the $.

Understandable. But OTOH, if you hire the RIGHT guy to do your plaster work, you'll never see the patch. (Good luck FINDING that "right guy", tho'.)

If it makes you feel any better, you're probably NOT losing all that much heat through those lights, in the overall scheme of things. The snow on your roof in the picture obviously makes the issue more conspicuous; but I'd be surprised if those three little spots added up to a significant fraction of your home's TOTAL heat loss through the envelope.

It did dawn on me that I have some of the same fixtures in the basement so I pulled a bulb this morning and took a few shots.

The cans are Progress Lighting and appear to be not IC rated as there is a warning label stating to keep insulation away at least three inches.....

That confirms it: No additional insulation. Even your home-brew rubber gasket MIGHT be an issue, if a building inspector ever had a reason to give it a second look.

Funny thing, the electrician was the fire chief in a small nearby town (volunteer), you think he would have suggested something different.

As long as the insulation was indeed kept away from the cans (as it looks like it was), his anti-combustion proclivities would have been satisfied.

The idea of installing LED might be an option I hadn't thought of.

The master switch is a rotating dimmer so we can adjust output.

Will LED be able to do this?

Since the LED are smaller do you think I could disconnect and then sawzall the can into pieces from the inside, insulate, then install an LED?

There are so many differnet variations of "LED Fixtures" -- and even of LED-based replacement inserts & trims for your current cans -- that it is impossible to say in general. It would all depend on the SPECIFIC fixture/insert chosen. I will note that when these LED retrofit kits came up here recently, the result was NOT a positive one for the fellow who purchased (and wound up returning) them. That was due in part because he bought really cheap crappy units at a local "big box" store; but there were also some "more generic" problems with what he tried to do.

I'm up for any suggestions except new blueboard and plaster.

My sincere suggestion is... "Live with it." (At least for now.) Whatever you spend to "fix" this "problem" will likely exceed what you could ever recoup in energy-cost savings (at least assuming you "fix" it right). So until/unless you have another reason to make a change, let sleeping dogs lie.

Will LED work (illuminate well) from a height of 16'?

Again, depends on the SPECIFIC device.

 

[JoeFin]

Remove the trim - them remove the 2 height adjusting screws and the "Can" slides down out of the ceiling

You then un-clip the light socket from the top of the can and remove it entirely

Would be nice if you could take said can down to the Big Box store and find some thing IC rated that will slide back up in its place.

More likely you could find some thing in a 4" can fixture that is IC rated that will slide up into that 5" can space with a wide enough trim to cover

 

[DByers]

Cemoto
You may want to look into a LED retrofit product like the CREE CR6 and with that ceiling height the 800 lumen unit. This is a completely sealed unit and wet location (shower rated) listed. This type of product would reduce the heat loss significantly.
http://http://www.cree.com/~/media/Files/Cree/Lighting/Downlights/CR%20Series%20Downlights/Spec%20Sheet/Cree_Downlight_CR6_SpecSheet

Should be able to find this type product at an HD or other big box store. Also any good electrical distributor should be able to help you out.

Hope this helps

 

[frankush]

One last option. This one depends on the rafter depth. If you have a 6" can, this should work. Drop the existing housing out of the frame work. Disconnect your feed and cut back the existing frame. A sawzall is not going to do it. It will jump all over the place. Bend the frame upward by pushing gently. Use something like a set of Knipex bolt cutters to snip the hangers back. This all has to be done through the existing hole. Once the frame is out of the way, pick up a couple of IC rated remodel cans like these.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B001R5NBBC/?tag=atomicindus08-20

A shallow can will allow more insulation above.
Drop the feed through the hole and wire them up. You can insulate now. Push the new fixture into the existing hole and pop out the clips that hold them in place. You'll have to take some measurements to insure you get the right fixture. You'll also have to buy new trims. It will not be easy, but it can be done. Ask me how I know. If it was me, I'd cut the ceiling open and install new construction fixtures or pull the fixtures, patch the holes after disconnecting the feeds and install a run of miniature track lighting with small MR16 heads.

 

[MrMark]

This is an excellent post by frankush. You should take it and run with it. It is a fairly hard job working through the can but it can be done and it is your only feasible solution.

For your climate and situation, the mini trac suggestion is even better. Can lights (unless with build a sheetrock box) back east are huge heat and air leakers.

 

[Cemoto]

Some great suggestions here guys - Thank you!

The rafters are 12" so there is some depth.

The idea to retrofit smaller IC cans is one I like and will explore further.

I don't think I am able to pull the old can out. The wing nut in there adjusts the height of the light socket, and the other screws right at the trim attach the mount bracket to the cylinder.

It would be nice to pull the old can out and stuff insulation in there and then I could install a smaller IC unit.


2ManyProjects - You are probably right about it not being worth it, but on the other hand I plan to stay here another 20 years (just built the barn) and every snowstorm when I see that it bugs the **** out of me.

Thank again guys!

Best Regards,

Al

 

[2ManyProjects]

2ManyProjects - You are probably right about it not being worth it, but on the other hand I plan to stay here another 20 years (just built the barn) and every snowstorm when I see that it bugs the **** out of me.

I get it. Sometimes, we need to do things which objectively make little or no sense, "just because".

 

[Zeke]

Did you read the specs provided by post #14? That seals off the can with a plug in. The poster is very knowledgeable.

 

[Cemoto]

Thanks guys -

I went with a LED retro-fit kit as DByers suggested.

OK,

So I am getting closer to this project.

Yesterday I went to Lowe's and bought Sylvania LED retrofit kits ($34.99 each). The led box is slim and will protrude less than 1" into the ceiling. the new fixture is solid aluminium so no air can vent. Wish there was some sort of gasket on the back though where it will touch the blueboard/plaster.

So my plan is to remove the cans internally, stuff some insulation in the cavity (allowing for air circulation) re-install the can portion, then mount these. The 5" can will keep the insulation off the back of the new LED fixture and Edison socket, and LED does not generate much heat so I think it is a good plan!

Any thoughts?

The staging is set up, and I pulled a bulb today, next week I'll do the install.

I'm posting pics so anyone else in this dilemma might find them if they search.

Best Regards,

.

 

[Mustang51js]

What you needed to get was air tight trims, but those that you got will help. Your still going to have some heat and may melt the snow since the light is only a couple inches away from the roof,most of the heat was prob the air inside just going up. They sell the recessed trims in led also if you want it to look more like a recessed light.