has anyone on GJ ever hardness tested williams

[senor fozz]

Williams vs SO hardness testing

with MY limited time on the forum I have seen countless number of posts stating that US Williams sockets are the exact same as Snap-on. Has anyone actually gone into a metrology lab and compared the hardness of the two brands.

 

[ChevyEFI]

metallurgy?

I have a friend who works in that field but am not sure he has access to do that at the time being.

The important parts are the square female and the inside of the broached drive.

And what would be tested? Chrome, impact, or industrial?

 

[A_Pmech]

Hardness alone would not be a good indication of the alloy used to make a socket.

An X-ray fluorescence spectrometer would provide a definitive answer.

 

[senor fozz]

Hardness alone would not be a good indication of the alloy used to make a socket.

An X-ray fluorescence spectrometer would provide a definitive answer.

the reason i brought up hardness was the line i always see goes like this, "just buy Williams they come off the same line as Snapon". my logic is if they are only changing the die/stamping then the heat treating will be the same therefor hardness.

with that said if you have access to the equipment i would be willing to supply the tools.

 

[senor fozz]

Bump kinda of hoping zkling or other senior members would have chimed in by now.

 

[d.mcfarland]

Someone posted pictures comparing the 2. I'll see if I can find them. They were not the same, but doesn't mean much. One could have more machining.

 

[Trucky]

A combination of GC-MS and hardness testing should be enough to verify that they are the same..

However I am not willing to foot that bill

 

[senor fozz]

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=220196

They look very similar, but there are some differences.

So from this thread it mentions a SO dealer stating the williams is heat treated to a slightly lower hardness. No mention of alloy though.

I have free access to the testing equipment. I just do not have any easy access williams to test. I'm going to pm the OP of this thread and see if he is willing to donate to the test. While there i can also put the sockets on a CMM to see how much tighter if any the broach on the SO socket is.

If there is any other members that would be willing to donate a socket. I was thinking of using 20mm since they are useless in my book and i don't think many people would mind 3 dimples on their 20mm.

 

[justanengineer]

Unless they were produced within a few days of each other, I doubt you could establish/disprove much of a connection between the two, even with a proper metallurgy lab. If you think about it, common hand tools arent a critical application that would require tight specs and acceptance standards of materials or final products. Its not going into space, if it fails customer service will send you a new one.

FWIW, I have access to a top quality metallurgy lab but to get something necessary for my day job done, I need a box of donuts, lots of patience, and a bit of luck to catch the correct people at the correct time, IOW, theyre busy as hell and would just laugh if I brought them a couple sockets. If anybody's interested in material science, I highly recommend following your interest as very knowledgeable folks are getting hard to find.

 

[senor fozz]

Unless they were produced within a few days of each other, I doubt you could establish/disprove much of a connection between the two, even with a proper metallurgy lab. If you think about it, common hand tools arent a critical application that would require tight specs and acceptance standards of materials or final products. Its not going into space, if it fails customer service will send you a new one.

FWIW, I have access to a top quality metallurgy lab but to get something necessary for my day job done, I need a box of donuts, lots of patience, and a bit of luck to catch the correct people at the correct time, IOW, theyre busy as hell and would just laugh if I brought them a couple sockets. If anybody's interested in material science, I highly recommend following your interest as very knowledgeable folks are getting hard to find.

So if the RC was within 5% you would agree that they likely went through the same process?

 

[scaron]

where's that guy over in greece? i thought someone sent him a williams to test?

http://garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=201468

neat thread.

 

[Trucky]

Unless they were produced within a few days of each other, I doubt you could establish/disprove much of a connection between the two, even with a proper metallurgy lab. If you think about it, common hand tools arent a critical application that would require tight specs and acceptance standards of materials or final products. Its not going into space, if it fails customer service will send you a new one.

FWIW, I have access to a top quality metallurgy lab but to get something necessary for my day job done, I need a box of donuts, lots of patience, and a bit of luck to catch the correct people at the correct time, IOW, theyre busy as hell and would just laugh if I brought them a couple sockets. If anybody's interested in material science, I highly recommend following your interest as very knowledgeable folks are getting hard to find.

I'm going to disagree. Modern manufacturing and automation has lent itself to very consistent production. Critical, no. But rather precise, yes (IMO). Making a socket hasn't changed that much over the years, but within that realization comes the fact that Snap-On has many years of experience doing essentially the same thing. I'd be very surprised to learn that they produce anything near what a regular person would consider "inconsistent".

Also, I'm going to assume (perhaps to the degradation of my point entirely ) that SO orders proper stock for making their sockets. And by proper, I'm assuming it is 1) US made and 2) batch tested for consistency with regards to metallurgical composition. Now of course American made steel doesn't mean it's going to be consistent, but I believe it helps. Any manufacturer of tool steels, whether vacuum melted, etc. or not, tests their product all the time. They have to.

I'm also going to go ahead and believe (in my own mind ) that Snap-On regularly tests their production lines. I may be a bit biased on this point, every shop I've worked at was either a mechanical testing facility or a defense contractor that produced important (read: Government $) parts for reactors, jets, etc.

I am rather interested in material science, although it's a bit too late for me to diverge right now. Another 4 years in the field should give me a little more perspective

 

[GSteg]

If you're testing chrome sockets, you'll need to grind off the chrome. A lot of sockets may be too thin at the wall to perform a regular Rockwell hardness so you'll need to resort to microhardness, and then converting the readings to Rockwell scale.

 

[zkling]

Hardness alone would not be a good indication of the alloy used to make a socket.

An X-ray fluorescence spectrometer would provide a definitive answer.

^ This, unless you do a full mechanical, chemical and dimensional analysis on the exact same sockets that each company has to offer you are just going off poor data. Hardness alone won't tell you much, except for the hardness of the chrome coating on the socket. Then you would need to measure the thickness of that chrome coating. Then dissect the socket to get to the underlying material. Then test that material again for comparison.

If you really wanted to do this the easiest way would probably be to do a quick tensile pull on a set of extensions. Something uniform and common in cross section. Then again that is assuming that the extensions are of the same material and go through the same processing the sockets do.

In the end it would probably cheaper easier and quicker to get in touch with someone on the floor at one of the manufacturing plants. I'm not talking about someone that sits and answers the phone all day. I'm talking about the person that is running the furnaces, and putting those parts through the process.

I've often contemplated doing this with the USA vs China craftsman wrenches just out of curiosity sake, but never got around to it.

Just my 2¢, if this is your biggest problem to worry about, you ain't go nothing to worry about.

 

[DekeT]

Hardness is defined as the ability to resist penetration. It is a poor way, on its own, to assess the quality differences in engineering materials. A wide of range of characteristics make for quality tools. Ductility, malleability, compressive strength, resistance to fatigue, impact strength, brittleness, resistance to corrosion are components that with the proper values combine to produce a quality machine.

Achieving the correct combination of physical characteristics is the engineering feat that brings value to the tool. That is what costs so much. Good luck with your exceptional hardness numbers when it fatigue factors or compressive strength are awful.

 

[justanengineer]

I'm going to disagree. Modern manufacturing and automation has lent itself to very consistent production. Critical, no. But rather precise, yes (IMO). Making a socket hasn't changed that much over the years, but within that realization comes the fact that Snap-On has many years of experience doing essentially the same thing. I'd be very surprised to learn that they produce anything near what a regular person would consider "inconsistent".

Also, I'm going to assume (perhaps to the degradation of my point entirely ) that SO orders proper stock for making their sockets. And by proper, I'm assuming it is 1) US made and 2) batch tested for consistency with regards to metallurgical composition. Now of course American made steel doesn't mean it's going to be consistent, but I believe it helps. Any manufacturer of tool steels, whether vacuum melted, etc. or not, tests their product all the time. They have to.

I'm also going to go ahead and believe (in my own mind ) that Snap-On regularly tests their production lines. I may be a bit biased on this point, every shop I've worked at was either a mechanical testing facility or a defense contractor that produced important (read: Government $) parts for reactors, jets, etc.

I mostly agree with your post, but if Im reading correctly, the OP's trying to figure out if the SO and Williams sockets are made on the same line or in the same plant, IOW, if Williams really is rebadged SO or its own product from a different plant. I dont see how that could be proven unless the materials were found to be VERY close in composition/basically from the same "batch." As a corporation, SO Industrial/Williams Tool Gp/whatever its called now might have one material spec for sockets, or they could have one (or multiple) per brand. Without VERY close material comps, a tool made elsewhere might be mistaken for one made in Kenosha.

My employer for example manufactures engines in multiple countries/continent, on three continents. Quite often the same engineer who designs a part for an engine produced here also designs similar parts for engines made overseas, along with choosing the material specs and designing the tooling and process to produce it, specs are often identical and so is quality.

OTOH, if this is simply a comparison of quality, thats easily tested and independent of whether or not the tools are actually "the same." Realistically, you dont need anything fancy for that however, IMHO a couple basic mechanical strength and durability tests would likely show similar/dissimilar quality.

 

[bob15]

I don't have any Williams sockets, but i did compare a Williams Supercombo to a Snap On wrench both being 7/16 (I believe). The Williams is softer to a significant amount, which goes with what I've been saying all along.....The williams wrenches aren't made with the same alloy and/or the same heat treat. My 7/16, 1/2 and 9/16 have spread, whereas the Snap On has not.

Try looking for an old reply i made in a thread and the data should be there.....

bob

 

[senor fozz]

I don't have any Williams sockets, but i did compare a Williams Supercombo to a Snap On wrench both being 7/16 (I believe). The Williams is softer to a significant amount, which goes with what I've been saying all along.....The williams wrenches aren't made with the same alloy and/or the same heat treat. My 7/16, 1/2 and 9/16 have spread, whereas the Snap On has not.

Try looking for an old reply i made in a thread and the data should be there.....

bob

The reason why i am interested in sockets as opposed to open ended wrenches is that i think an open ended wrench is flawed by design. If you are going to grad a fastener would you rather grab it by two sides or all 6. Socket quality across most brands seems to be going into the ten tenths(to put it into racing terminology).

Interested to see your data. I was thinking today if I could possibly want to photograph the microstucture of the sockets at just underneath the chrome and at the wall half way down the socket.

By the end of the day I would kind of hope to put the williams is the same saying to rest. By either concluding closest makes no difference or to show the forum this is the difference and it is up to the consumer if it is worth it.



ps i'm glad this thread is staying civil compared to others and I would like to keep it that way.

 

[senor fozz]

If you're testing chrome sockets, you'll need to grind off the chrome. A lot of sockets may be too thin at the wall to perform a regular Rockwell hardness so you'll need to resort to microhardness, and then converting the readings to Rockwell scale.

I was planning on hardness testing at the base drive end with chrome and then with chrome removed hence 20mm socket being used. We can also look at the micro-structure to see how well each socket was hardened. Such as if the Williams is only case hardened(doubt it though).

 

[zkling]

Here's the thing. At the end of the day what really matters is does it do the job properly, no? The reason we select the quality brands is so that we can depend on the tools when needed, right?

If you really want to put it through the test, without getting really indepth. How about a small torque test? Pick a medium size socket for a given drive size, get some good quality bolts, and make up a rig so you can really torque down on the socket. Using a breaker bar or the like. Keep it at 90°, add weight until something breaks or slips. Take note of the weight and do a back force calculation on the socket faces.

What intrigues me about the craftsman "lobster claw" wrenches, is why they added so much additional material to the open end. How much different is the material from their previous ones that necessitated a drastic increase in geometry.

 

[ndoran]

Hardness alone would not be a good indication of the alloy used to make a socket.

An X-ray fluorescence spectrometer would provide a definitive answer.

Sorry the X Ray fluorescence Spectrometer does not provide a definitive answer. It will give you an indication of the elements present within the metal and their relative percentages. It tells you nothing about the the heat treatment or the grain structure or the orientation of the grain structure or the uniformity of the heat treatment etc.

For the OP the hardness tells you nothing about the shear strength or tensile strength.

I have a materials lab reporting to me at work and we have these capabilities and more with the engineers and technologists to use the capabilities and what you want to do is complex and expensive.

At the end of the day you pay the manufacturer to do this type pf work during the initial tool development and on an ongoing basis to ensure they are maintaining their quality during the years of production. This is one reason that some manufacturers charge more for their products. As has been said many times on this board choose your source for tools carefully.

 

[ndoran]

So if the RC was within 5% you would agree that they likely went through the same process?

nope, I would interpret that as meaning they had similar hardness.

 

[senor fozz]

Here's the thing. At the end of the day what really matters is does it do the job properly, no? The reason we select the quality brands is so that we can depend on the tools when needed, right?

If you really want to put it through the test, without getting really indepth. How about a small torque test? Pick a medium size socket for a given drive size, get some good quality bolts, and make up a rig so you can really torque down on the socket. Using a breaker bar or the like. Keep it at 90°, add weight until something breaks or slips. Take note of the weight and do a back force calculation on the socket faces.

What intrigues me about the craftsman "lobster claw" wrenches, is why they added so much additional material to the open end. How much different is the material from their previous ones that necessitated a drastic increase in geometry.

First thing I want to put out some data either proving the hardness because that seems to be go to line for people when they talk about tools, especially what makes SO stand out from the rest. Chose to compare williams because I'm tired of seeing brand bashing on this forum. Case in point, "why spend the extra do on SO when Williams is the same thing."

Second I'm bored, want something to do in my spare time at school this seems to fit the bill. The test you described I could do but when is the last time you statically loaded a socket. Truth is I don't have a better testing method than yours when it comes to sockets so i figured i would test the claims I have read on this forum.

Third I had the same thought as you when i learned about the lobster claw wrenches. I chose no to go down that route because i got sick of seeing threads about them, cm to china COO, etc. I like when i press the new posts button and I don't see CM, china, COO, lobster,etc in the same thread title and the same ramblings from the other locked thread. Also I hate HAVING to use open end wrenches no matter who makes them. I keep a set a RPs and used them less than 5 times this year.

 

[senor fozz]

nope, I would interpret that as meaning they had similar hardness.

So from your opinion would you interpret the 5% is closest makes no difference at the end of the day when it comes down to a 17mm chrome socket. This is all assuming same alloy similar grain structure.

edit: forgot about grain structure

 

[BajaBound]

Just buy the williams lol!

I love mine

 

[ndoran]

So from your opinion would you interpret the 5% is closest makes no difference at the end of the day when it comes down to a 17mm chrome socket. This is all assuming same alloy.

Good question.

Knowing that two items have the same hardness means I have one data point about them - even if they are the same alloy. The 5% difference is not that big a difference and you need to understand the accuracy of the test method that was used to perform the test etc.

You can have two items made from the same metal alloy, heat treat them to the same hardness and they not perform the same. There are many variables at play.

At work we have seen performance differences in nominally identical parts made by two suppliers using raw material purchased to the same specification - the reason for the performance difference was eventually identified as being caused by the differences in the cutting tool paths because each supplier produced their own CNC program.

For example if you look at the link for the abstract for 6061 aluminium with a T6 temper

http://www.astm.org/Standards/B308.htm

you can read the list of reference documents and get an idea of what is involved in understanding and controlling the material. These material specs have a range for every one of their properties to accommodate manufacturing variances from batch to batch and mill to mill. This why companies that are concerned about producing high quality items with repeatable performance limit the sources they use for their raw material. I have read on here that Snap On has a single source for their raw material. At work we only allow the outside machine shops to buy their raw material from suppliers we select.

At the end of the day it does depend on what your performance demands are.

 

[A_Pmech]

Sorry the X Ray fluorescence Spectrometer does not provide a definitive answer. It will give you an indication of the elements present within the metal and their relative percentages.

Hardness alone would not be a good indication of the alloy used to make a socket.

An X-ray fluorescence spectrometer would provide a definitive answer.

It would seem then that we agree.

 

[zkling]

First thing I want to put out some data either proving the hardness because that seems to be go to line for people when they talk about tools, especially what makes SO stand out from the rest. Chose to compare williams because I'm tired of seeing brand bashing on this forum. Case in point, "why spend the extra do on SO when Williams is the same thing."

Second I'm bored, want something to do in my spare time at school this seems to fit the bill. The test you described I could do but when is the last time you statically loaded a socket. Truth is I don't have a better testing method than yours when it comes to sockets so i figured i would test the claims I have read on this forum.

Third I had the same thought as you when i learned about the lobster claw wrenches. I chose no to go down that route because i got sick of seeing threads about them, cm to china COO, etc. I like when i press the new posts button and I don't see CM, china, COO, lobster,etc in the same thread title and the same ramblings from the other locked thread. Also I hate HAVING to use open end wrenches no matter who makes them. I keep a set a RPs and used them less than 5 times this year.

What are you studying in school?

 

[senor fozz]

What are you studying in school?

According to my transcript today it says automation. I actually take a lot of materials, thermodynamics, fluids classes too. I choose automation based on the fact that most of the people graduating form my engineering program went with design as their specialization.

 

[zkling]

According to my transcript today it says automation. I actually take a lot of materials, thermodynamics, fluids classes too. I choose automation based on the fact that most of the people graduating form my engineering program went with design as their specialization.

Is it an engineering degree or something along those lines? How far along are you? Reason I ask, is being at a university you should have access to the proper equipment needed. Just a matter if you have the classes yet or who would be willing to help you. Doing this on your own, accurately, would be astronomically expensive.

I really think you are spinning your wheels on this one. Would it be neat, sure, but in the end is it really going to change much? Probably not. I have a feeling a few strategically placed phone calls to Snap on or willams would solve this once and for all. Throw in the fact you are a student and I bet they will be willing to help.

 

[Trucky]

Good question.

Knowing that two items have the same hardness means I have one data point about them - even if they are the same alloy.

I'll agree with this point.

You can have two items made from the same metal alloy, heat treat them to the same hardness and they not perform the same. There are many variables at play.

But not with this one. In this application, anyways. The material arrives as annealed bar stock. Initial condition of the metal is not a concern here. The alloy, if similar or the same between the "two" companies, will undergo practically the same processes on it's way to becoming a socket (as in this case). There's a video out there of Snappy sockets being made, I suggest you check it out. It's a good watch. Anyways, through all the machining and heat generated by these processes, I believe that the grain structure will be very consistant.. this isn't some half-*** job shop operation with contaminated quenches and furnaces with burnt up coils. Everything goes along at the same rate, in the same way. As far as sockets go, this is a moot point IMO.

At work we have seen performance differences in nominally identical parts made by two suppliers using raw material purchased to the same specification - the reason for the performance difference was eventually identified as being caused by the differences in the cutting tool paths because each supplier produced their own CNC program.

I can however, confirm this

For example if you look at the link for the abstract for 6061 aluminium with a T6 temper

http://www.astm.org/Standards/B308.htm

you can read the list of reference documents and get an idea of what is involved in understanding and controlling the material. These material specs have a range for every one of their properties to accommodate manufacturing variances from batch to batch and mill to mill. This why companies that are concerned about producing high quality items with repeatable performance limit the sources they use for their raw material. I have read on here that Snap On has a single source for their raw material. At work we only allow the outside machine shops to buy their raw material from suppliers we select.

At the end of the day it does depend on what your performance demands are.

Good read. I always wonder if there's a limit to how many words they can fit into those specs without confusing themselves in the process.

 

[senor fozz]

Good question.

Knowing that two items have the same hardness means I have one data point about them - even if they are the same alloy. The 5% difference is not that big a difference and you need to understand the accuracy of the test method that was used to perform the test etc.

You can have two items made from the same metal alloy, heat treat them to the same hardness and they not perform the same. There are many variables at play.

At work we have seen performance differences in nominally identical parts made by two suppliers using raw material purchased to the same specification - the reason for the performance difference was eventually identified as being caused by the differences in the cutting tool paths because each supplier produced their own CNC program.

For example if you look at the link for the abstract for 6061 aluminium with a T6 temper

http://www.astm.org/Standards/B308.htm

you can read the list of reference documents and get an idea of what is involved in understanding and controlling the material. These material specs have a range for every one of their properties to accommodate manufacturing variances from batch to batch and mill to mill. This why companies that are concerned about producing high quality items with repeatable performance limit the sources they use for their raw material. I have read on here that Snap On has a single source for their raw material. At work we only allow the outside machine shops to buy their raw material from suppliers we select.

At the end of the day it does depend on what your performance demands are.

I understand the that different tool paths can/will affect performance. Perhaps the SO socket is made with a less aggressive broach. Don't know how to test this without stepping foot on the line and inspecting the broach. My speculation is that the sockets are made with near identical processes.

What I would like to do is grab 20 sockets from each manufacturer and load them in torsion and see where the sockets can go before plastic deformation. I don't have access to the equipment nor the money to have it done let alone buy 40 loose sockets.

I have also read about SO material stock coming from the same source and anecdotally from my SO man that returned tools go back to the factory to be recycled for their materials.

With my limited experience with RC testing it was highly unlikely to pull the same measurement from a part even if you were testing less than 1/4" away
from the last data point. This was a machine in a college(all engineering students have access to it) so I question its accuracy due to possible abuse.

I am really just going along with the commonly heard/repeated story, Williams comes off the same line as SO just not heat treated the same.

From this I gather
-same stock material
-different dies/stamping
-same workers/machines
-same ovens, likely the heat treating process is shorter/less costly for williams

I should just drink the Kool aid and accept that williams will get the job done.
Don't have to though because I buy used SO at williams or less prices.

 

[GSteg]

For the OP the hardness tells you nothing about the shear strength or tensile strength.

I would say that's half the truth. Hardness won't tell you much about shear strength, but it does correlate with ultimate tensile strength.

 

[senor fozz]

I would say that's half the truth. Hardness won't tell you much about shear strength, but it does correlate with ultimate tensile strength.

That is what i was taught.

I think I'm going to let the chips lie and focus on something new signed up for the hell class of my program this semester so maybe I will be kept busy/interested with it.

zkling the reason why I don't like calling companies is because it is cheap too get a monkey to lie. If I was near the factory on the other hand I would definitely try to take a class tour/spy mission.

In terms of access to testing equipment yes the University has the equipment but it is on a different campus, due to bs compartmentalizing of departments the safety waiver I sign only applies to my dept labs even though there is another dept on the same campus with some would say better equipment. I can't even justify paying the parking on the other campus so I wanted to work with what I had access to.


Side note zkling do you own a KR655 or another KR? Workng with another member on something.

 

[Skin]

Hardness alone would not be a good indication of the alloy used to make a socket.

An X-ray fluorescence spectrometer would provide a definitive answer.

Snap-On doesn't make steel, they're shipped it, so i'd be shocked if there was a difference in the composition. Personally I think its mostly down to cosmetics. How many dips they take in the chrome tanks, how the tools are staggered on the racks for chroming, how the tools are placed in the bins for heat treatment etc...

 

[zkling]

That is what i was taught.

I think I'm going to let the chips lie and focus on something new signed up for the hell class of my program this semester so maybe I will be kept busy/interested with it.

zkling the reason why I don't like calling companies is because it is cheap too get a monkey to lie. If I was near the factory on the other hand I would definitely try to take a class tour/spy mission.

In terms of access to testing equipment yes the University has the equipment but it is on a different campus, due to bs compartmentalizing of departments the safety waiver I sign only applies to my dept labs even though there is another dept on the same campus with some would say better equipment. I can't even justify paying the parking on the other campus so I wanted to work with what I had access to.

Yea, and it is also easy for someone without the basic background knowledge to get useless results. What equipment do you have access to? Even if you just had a Instron, that would give you a good start.

Side note zkling do you own a KR655 or another KR? Workng with another member on something.

I have a KR637/657, quite a bit smaller than the KR655 at 33"x18" vs 36"x~20". Why do you ask?

Snap-On doesn't make steel, they're shipped it, so i'd be shocked if there was a difference in the composition. Personally I think its mostly down to cosmetics. How many dips they take in the chrome tanks, how the tools are staggered on the racks for chroming, how the tools are placed in the bins for heat treatment etc...

Yea, but you never know, they may or may not specify different raw material specs for different lines. I kinda doubt that, but....

 

[bob15]

Snap-On doesn't make steel, they're shipped it, so i'd be shocked if there was a difference in the composition. Personally I think its mostly down to cosmetics. How many dips they take in the chrome tanks, how the tools are staggered on the racks for chroming, how the tools are placed in the bins for heat treatment etc...

Not very hard to order a certain metal composition for each line. We do it all the time at work......different alloy steels for different parts. Even steel with lead mixed in, mainly for easier machining.....

Heat treat times, temps, even nitride will or can make a difference.

oh, and explain the Rockwell hardness test differences on wrenches? Bin placement in for heat treat won't make a difference.......


bob

 

[bagsanthony]

Seriously, I'm an engineer, but when I hear things like hardness tests for tools ---holy ****! Rockwell, brinell hardness tests, strain gauges, stress/strain diagrams anythings possible here on GJ lol