UL and CSA Listing - Canada

[Backlight]

Warning - This post is more for the Canadian's on the board.

I recently purchased a generator panel for use in my new garage. Plan was to move the service to the garage and feed the house as a sub.

I spoke to a few electrical supply houses here and they were able to order me the Generac GenReady Advanced Load Center (Product Link) (Manual Link)

Due to the price difference I ended up buying in the US. Now that I have it home I see it is only UL listed, not CSA or CUL listed.

Question - are their any electrical inspectors on the board or do you know an inspector in Ontario? If so do you know if they would accept a UL listed device? From my understanding the code says no, however if the thing is safe for 300+ million Americas it 'should' be safe here.. Wonder if they will turn a blind eye (or even check), who knows.. Sigh.

Anyhow, if I put this thing in and the inspector tells me it's no good someone on the board might be able to get a new cheap generator load center from me... lol

 

[Norcal]

Not a Canadian, but you may have issues w/ just a UL listing, if you had a c UL us listing then I would think it would be fine, IMO, you need a CSA or UL c listing.

 

[vekster]

You can get an inspection done on it by a company like QPS. They do field inspections for CSA markings.


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[Backlight]

You can get an inspection done on it by a company like QPS. They do field inspections for CSA markings.


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Thanks for that vekster! I'll give them a call, not far from me so could easily bring the panel in if that was necessary.

 

[vekster]

You could also take the chance that the inspector would not even notice.


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[ddawg16]

It may not be an issue.

I'm the UL guy at my company....

For the most part, there is a co-acceptance of UL in Canada and Canada to UL....specs are basically the same.

But....not guaranteed.

As for your specific application....unless your inspector is a ****....it shouldn't be a problem for residential. Commercial? Yea....he is going to want the CSA label.

Here is a good reference...

http://www.crownaudio.com/certifmarks.htm

 

[Rickcnc]

Warning -

Question - are their any electrical inspectors on the board or do you know an inspector in Ontario?

Not sure but maybe ESA (Electrical Safety Authority) could help you out.
We sometimes bring them into work to inspect and label equipment we're shipping to the Nuclear facilities.

 

[tfi racing]

If you are working under a homeowner permit,you will likely be scrutinized a lot harsher than a contractor would be,you will likely not be able to pull one over on the inspector.
Best to have the paperwork ready in case he thinks something is not quite right,perhaps Generac(USA)can shed some light on whether the sticker on this piece meets the ESA requirements,the ESA should also list what certification tags they consider to be acceptable.

 

[ADSR]

I don't think i would worry about a building inspector picking up on it. I be more worried if something did happen, your insurance might not be valid. And they would pick up on that and your claim might be denied.

 

[Backlight]

If you are working under a homeowner permit,you will likely be scrutinized a lot harsher than a contractor would be,you will likely not be able to pull one over on the inspector.
Best to have the paperwork ready in case he thinks something is not quite right,perhaps Generac(USA)can shed some light on whether the sticker on this piece meets the ESA requirements,the ESA should also list what certification tags they consider to be acceptable.

Yes, it will be under a homeowner permit so there will be an inspection. I like doing stuff myself, I don't have an issue with the inspection. While some of the code might be over the top 99% of it is to keep people safe. The question is will he look for a CSA for cUL mark on everything. Not sure, but certainly possible.

You could also take the chance that the inspector would not even notice.


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The issue is if he does catch it and thinks it's an issue it will not be fun removing it. It's being installed out in the country so I don't suspect having a field inspection when installed will be cheap.

I have to make a call, either cut my losses now and sell the panel (can't return easily), see what it will cost to have it field evaluation done before the install (which if not to expensive might be just fine as the next best solution is adds a fair amount of cost), or take my chances. It's going to depend on what the cost of the evaluation is I think..

 

[Backlight]

I don't think i would worry about a building inspector picking up on it. I be more worried if something did happen, your insurance might not be valid. And they would pick up on that and your claim might be denied.

Building inspector won't care (at least in Ontario), it's the electrical inspector that will pick up on it.. Home owner insurance would have a hard time denying the claim if it was inspected and passed.. But you never know, they are not a charity.

Anyhow - more to come...

 

[Delta74]

I would call your Inspections office, and just ask, however, I think your screwed, I would cut your losses, and just get a CSA approved panel, you can call, see about an inspection and getting a field approval, but the cost will most likely be at a point that you should have just bought locally, sorry, but this is one of those times when online sales bites you in the ***.

I DO hope I am wrong for you, but been burned before at work, got a shipment direct from supplier, they goofed, we did not notice and installed the gear, no CSA stamps, had to rip out and redo the work, thankfully the supplier acknowledged there mistake and let us return the now used and punched gear.

 

[mechan]

I would call your Inspections office, and just ask, however, I think your screwed, I would cut your losses, and just get a CSA approved panel, you can call, see about an inspection and getting a field approval, but the cost will most likely be at a point that you should have just bought locally, sorry, but this is one of those times when online sales bites you in the ***.

I DO hope I am wrong for you, but been burned before at work, got a shipment direct from supplier, they goofed, we did not notice and installed the gear, no CSA stamps, had to rip out and redo the work, thankfully the supplier acknowledged there mistake and let us return the now used and punched gear.

The CSA listing can really throw a loop into things. We had a bunch of motors on an industrial installation that had this issue brought up at the last moment. I enjoy going into the boot store in the states and having the CSA certified boots being more money right next to the American version of the *same* boot.

I would certainly give the inspector a call and give it a whirl, but it could be one of those things that bites you later on.

 

[Chilliwack Murray]

We have equipment field inspected from time to time and CSA certification starts around $400 and goes up. There are about a dozen recognized agencies in Canada that you could choose from but it is not likely cost effective and it isn't necessarily a shoe in that it is acceptable under Canadian standards - there are differences in how panels are built, grounded etc between US and Canada. If you can find an identical appearing panel here and compare the part number you may find it is the same but if it has a suffix like -a or something there is likely a difference. If the PN is identical you might be able to make that argument to the inspector.

I don't know if you said the genset was from the US but if it is and it is a nat gas or propane unit, it will almost certainly not have CSA approved regulators or shutoff solenoids on it. There are fewer certification agencies for gas equipment, 99% of gas equipment bears the CSA approval.

Sorry for the bad news... There's always Craigslist.

 

[Backlight]

We have equipment field inspected from time to time and CSA certification starts around $400 and goes up. There are about a dozen recognized agencies in Canada that you could choose from but it is not likely cost effective and it isn't necessarily a shoe in that it is acceptable under Canadian standards - there are differences in how panels are built, grounded etc between US and Canada. If you can find an identical appearing panel here and compare the part number you may find it is the same but if it has a suffix like -a or something there is likely a difference. If the PN is identical you might be able to make that argument to the inspector.

I don't know if you said the genset was from the US but if it is and it is a nat gas or propane unit, it will almost certainly not have CSA approved regulators or shutoff solenoids on it. There are fewer certification agencies for gas equipment, 99% of gas equipment bears the CSA approval.

Sorry for the bad news... There's always Craigslist.

If I bought the panel from a supplier in Canada it would have been the same issue (as I knew they were sourcing form the US). The difference would have been I could have returned it. That said if I bought it here I would never have thought to look for a CSA listing. So, it would have been installed and if the inspector caught it I would have had to rip it out...

 

[Blk88GT]

Compare a few of the products with CSA and UL only certifications. The Menards in Grand Forks has some of them side by side on the shelf.

I just went through some of this with my shop and noticed different wall thicknesses on connectors, boxes etc. I was money ahead buying a lot of stuff down there like conduit, clips, connectors, fixtures etc but a fair amount was better off sourced from home.

 

[Backlight]

Compare a few of the products with CSA and UL only certifications. The Menards in Grand Forks has some of them side by side on the shelf.

I just went through some of this with my shop and noticed different wall thicknesses on connectors, boxes etc. I was money ahead buying a lot of stuff down there like conduit, clips, connectors, fixtures etc but a fair amount was better off sourced from home.

Agree, have to be careful what you source where and ensure it is CSA or cUL listed. I noticed that the PVC conduit from Home Depot (JM Eagle) in the US is not CSA listed so I won't be buying that there. One of the brands from Lows is CSA listed so that is what I'll be getting. PVC is significantly less in the US, even with the dollar going the wrong way.

 

[Backlight]

Looks like it might be about 300 - 400 for a CSA label inspection. Likely worth it provided it passes as it's still less overall than the next best option (and this does not even consider the loss I'll take if I have to sell the panel 'used')

The field inspector I spoke to thinks they have done a few of those panels in the past and that might reduce the cost provided he is correct. He is going to investigate and get back to me.

 

[rancherbill]

I would call your Inspections office, and just ask,

I can just hear that call.

"I just installed a non-certified panel. Is it OK?"

Reply, "Oh sure, we just do inspections to be able to get out of the office - it's boring playing cards all day. The regulations were just written to give somebody a job."

 

[Delta74]

I can just hear that call.

"I just installed a non-certified panel. Is it OK?"

Reply, "Oh sure, we just do inspections to be able to get out of the office - it's boring playing cards all day. The regulations were just written to give somebody a job."

I am going to take that as having some humor, yea would not be a fun call, but as I said I think he is going to have some problems, still I would try a call, explain its a specialty panel not just a load center and see if they will give an exemption but yea still think you should just cut your losses. if you can either try selling it, or see about mailing it back for a refund.

I think someone here suggested installing it, and prey they miss it, but bad idea , if they catch it you have tons more work to do to swap it out, will have more trouble selling it as its used, and will then cause your inspector to go over everything with a fine tooth comb, getting very picky.

other idea that may work for you, call the makers of the panel, tell them you ordered it, but received a UL listed only panel, see if they can arrange a replacement since its still new, or possibly provide you with the proper documents saying its also CSA approved, may just need a letter from them, and needs a few small changes to bring it to code this could be something small and silly like a ground bus tied in. you never know. worse case your out 5 minutes.

Good luck.

 

[Backlight]

Looks like it might be about 300 - 400 for a CSA label inspection. Likely worth it provided it passes as it's still less overall than the next best option (and this does not even consider the loss I'll take if I have to sell the panel 'used')

The field inspector I spoke to thinks they have done a few of those panels in the past and that might reduce the cost provided he is correct. He is going to investigate and get back to me.

Update - cost will be $275 + tax. Provided the breakers are CSA approved he said it should pass. Going to arrange to have the inspection done. Not cheap but as I said before still less than the next best alternative.

 

[vekster]

Are you using QPS? If you are is Tom S. doing the inspection?


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[Chilliwack Murray]

Update - cost will be $275 + tax. Provided the breakers are CSA approved he said it should pass. Going to arrange to have the inspection done. Not cheap but as I said before still less than the next best alternative.

Hey, that's good news, hope it works out for you.

One other note... Some have mentioned buying electrical in the US at the big box stores but I would suggest going to the local wholesaler. They will usually sell to the public and prices will be about a 1/3 less than the best you will see in Canadian big box. If you have an affiliation with ANY company - electrical or otherwise you will probably see a 50% savings.

I just bought 4 bathroom fans using only our company name - we don't have an account. Same PN fan at HDepot around was $165, Rona $149, wholesaler was $62... Round figures but you get the idea. Some things like fans have huge mark ups.

At least give it a try, might save some gas... and having to take your wife to the outlet stores which will surely negate any savings on electrical supplies.

 

[Backlight]

Are you using QPS? If you are is Tom S. doing the inspection?


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Spoke to QPS and ESAFE, both will do the inspection, looking to lock in ESAFE at the moment only because they will come to my house for the same price as QPS will do it at their office. It's a bit hard to get to their office during normal business hours as I work normal business hours.

 

[Backlight]

Hey, that's good news, hope it works out for you.

One other note... Some have mentioned buying electrical in the US at the big box stores but I would suggest going to the local wholesaler. They will usually sell to the public and prices will be about a 1/3 less than the best you will see in Canadian big box. If you have an affiliation with ANY company - electrical or otherwise you will probably see a 50% savings.

I just bought 4 bathroom fans using only our company name - we don't have an account. Same PN fan at HDepot around was $165, Rona $149, wholesaler was $62... Round figures but you get the idea. Some things like fans have huge mark ups.

At least give it a try, might save some gas... and having to take your wife to the outlet stores which will surely negate any savings on electrical supplies.

I do deal with local wholesalers, I tend to shop around to find value on bigger items when possible. Sometimes the wholesalers are more than Home Depot, sometimes less, it's really a **** shoot.

Plus I don't always know how much less (if any) they are selling to the trades than to me.. I appreciate someone that does 10's of thousands in business will get a better deal, but how much better I don't know..

 

[Backlight]

In the interest of helping others there are differences between CSA and UL for service entrance equipment. Under CSA the 'service entrance' portion of the panel needs to be isolated from the 'customer' portion of the panel.

Intent is to ensure no accidental contact is made with the main lugs when working inside the 'customer' side of the panel. I need to sort this out if I want to use the panel for service entrance.

 

[Backlight]

Panel was certified today! Somewhat annoying to have to spend the cost of the panel again to have it certified but what's done is done. It still ends up less costly than the next best alternative.