Recommendations for service upgrade?

[Zeke]

Yeah, I know I've been reading here since 2009 or so and even dispense some advice now and then. But when it really gets down to the exact and tricky there are 5 guys, maybe 10 here that really know their stuff. So, if you will indulge me I have a pic of my existing old GE panel which is crammed with off brand slim breakers. Time for a 24 position 200A load center.

But here's the reason I post (well 2, really), I have probably 30" available in the cabinet for a surface mount box. A lot of the boxes want more. What box can you think of that would be ideal here? Does it have to be long and skinny? I'm looking at side by side and offset panels but haven't discovered the ideal one yet.

The other thing is cost. I had an electrical contractor take a look at this and after 2 weeks he came back with $2500 labor and material, no fees included. I do any and all patch work. I thought that a bit high with no additional work, just a new mast, new grounding system, the panel and make up. Admittedly, I'm behind the times.

 

[frankush]

Being from IL, I've never seen a cabinet within a cabinet setup like that. If your local power company requires that type of setup, I know what I would do. I'd find a local gear builder to quote me on a new cabinet with meter fitting, panel and room for whatever the other items are to the right of the panel. New cabinet would be aluminum. If that is something you could buy off the shelf, you might save a few bucks. AND, I'd make the cabinet large enough for a 40 circuit panel. Any local gear builder should be willing to come out and quote you. That price is probably a bit high if he's just looking to do what you want done.

I really think 24 circuits is way too small by today's standards.

 

[Zeke]

Old houses like this typically had the service installed in these types of cabinets. They are not required by any means but they do provide for a surface mount load center that is concealed for aesthetics. Many folks opt to install a new service adjacent to the cabinet and use the old box as a junction box for all the circuits. I could do that if I got Verizon to relocate their equipment. But the POCO has approved the meter upgrade for its present location. That's what the orange sticker is.

So all I have to do is get something that fits from a catalog. Siemens has a few and some are special order.

 

[Zeke]

Frank, 24 slots does allow me to use several tandems.

 

[frankush]

I understand that. I've never been a big fan of tandem breakers. They're UL listed, so why not? Being a pipe and wire guy, I've seen too many people pop in a tandem and think nothing of the shared neutral in a multiple wire branch circuit. It's not an issue with single circuit non metallic cable, which we don't use. Tandem breakers, in this area, mean trouble. Doubling the current on a neutral wire can be a bad thing. Two circuits on the same phase, with one neutral between them. Just to satisfy my curiosity, can I ask how that old house is wired? Pipe, bx or something else?

 

[Zeke]

Much of the house is upgraded to grounded circuits and GFCI's where required. The original lighting to ceiling fixtures and wall sconces is still knob and tube. I have found it amusing that there is some kind of ground wire run bare in the attic and apparently attached to some of the boxes. And, to be sure, the original receptacles have been replaced with improper grounded ones.

The ones I depend on are all new circuits installed by me by running new cable under the house. The kitchen has been remodeled 2wice so the wiring is mostly in conduit back to the panel. And an addition is all wired pretty much to the new code.

All of the garage is in conduit so I can do as I please there. Add and modify — I have 2 paths to get there although I know I only allowed one. Hence my separate welding circuit which could become a sub panel.

Just need more room in the main.

 

[Norcal]

Because of new AFCI requirements, the use of twin breakers will be VERY limited, any additional circuits w/ some exclusions will have to be AFCI's. One suggestion would be to move the Verizon box yourself & mount a 200A surface mount version of this panel there, is SoCal Edison that picky if it's a few feet to the right? Another way would be to lower bottom of the cabinet to accommodate the surface mount version of the same panel.




This is my house panel,FYI. IMO, use a copper bussed panel. QO all in ones have not been built in years, HOM is AL bus, Eaton (C-H) BR is AL, been a while since I have done a service change but think Siemens has CU bussed panels, I don't care for GE (Good Enough).


CA adopted the 2011 NEC on Jan 1 2014, it's why I called them "new", even though other States had adopted it earlier & some are on the 2014 NEC.

 

[Zeke]

Thank you Norcal. So you're saying the existing house wiring can be wired up without using AFCI's? That will help. This thread if it gets rolling will help me decide if the electricians are thinking this through to my benefit.

And yes, I can and had planned on extending the lower portion of the cabinet as needed. And if the Verizon equipment needs to be moved, I will do that too.

I will need:
50 A DP for oven
40 or 50 A for A/C
60A for garage
and there are 15 existing 120 v circuits.
There are no plans for any room additions but it might be nice to have a couple of extras for whatever reason.

I believe that's 21 full size breaker positions.

 

[Zeke]

I'm going to bump my thread because I have talked to 2 electricians and I'm more confused than ever.

 

[frankush]

I'll jump back in. I totally agree on the copper buss suggestion. Think about adding a whole house surge suppressor as well. It will take up 2 more spaces, but they are a good investment. I would also relocate the Verizon box. If you figured on possibly extending the cabinet anyhow, just replace it. It will look so much better. Norcal's install is neat, clean and professional looking. My last suggestion is to lose the knob and tube. That **** is so old, it's a fire hazard plain and simple. Do it right the first time and don't look back. It may cost a couple bucks more, but you'll be pleased in the long run.

 

[rburke65]

From Ohio here so....where is your existing breaker panel?..... Under the orange stick, or? Thanks.

 

[Zeke]

From Ohio here so....where is your existing breaker panel?..... Under the orange stick, or? Thanks.

Yes, 12 position 100 Amp service under the meter base fed from overhead.

 

[MoonRise]

Thank you Norcal. So you're saying the existing house wiring can be wired up without using AFCI's? That will help. This thread if it gets rolling will help me decide if the electricians are thinking this through to my benefit.

And yes, I can and had planned on extending the lower portion of the cabinet as needed. And if the Verizon equipment needs to be moved, I will do that too.

I will need:
50 A DP for oven
40 or 50 A for A/C
60A for garage
and there are 15 existing 120 v circuits.
There are no plans for any room additions but it might be nice to have a couple of extras for whatever reason.

I believe that's 21 full size breaker positions.

Ummm, ixnay on the 'not' using AFCIs.

I believe Norcal was saying that because current Codes call for AFCI's pretty much everywhere now, that use of 'twin' breakers (aka tandems) will be pretty limited.

And replacing the entire main panel will -probably- trigger putting some things up to current Code, meaning most likely putting in the AFCI's.

And as mentioned, a whole-house surge-protector in the main panel (typically) uses two slots (a double-pole breaker installation).

And since this panel is 'outdoors', you need an outdoor-rated 3R panel. Right? That pushes the price up higher than a similar indoor-mounted panel.

Not an all-in-one, but Grainger lists a SquareD QO 200-amp main-breaker load center 3R 40-slot panel at $1106 (QO14060M200RB, list price on the Schneider-Electric site is $1815 btw ). Silver-plated copper bus. Approx dimensions of 35 high x 15 wide x 5 deep.

IMHO, when you already have at least 21 'slots' allocated, plus the two more needed for the whole-house surge protector circuit, putting in a 24-slot panel is really not allowing any future growth space. A 30 or 40 slot 200-amp panel is really what you should be looking at.

 

[72Anthony]

The $2,500 price may be for a "retail" uninformed homeowner. Tell him you are getting bids from other electricians and is that his best price.

Then again, it's not completely unreasonable if it includes all permits and coordination with the power company and inspectors.

Normally the electrician shows up, power company arrives and disconnects power, sparky goes to work, city inspection may be required, power company comes back to reconnect power, sparky finishes up. There is some down time waiting on others.

 

[Mustang51js]

I don't know what your local codes are but NEC requires afci for new construction. You don't need them if your replacing the panel,I would call your inspector and ask what he wants. If I were to do that job I would put a new meter socket with a new panel on the right or inside the house and would roughly be around $1800. I cut the wire to house and reconnect it without the power company coming.i am in nj so codes are a little different. Any reason you want 200 amps, code now let's you use 24 circuits with a 100 amp service, so you could save space if you will never use more than 24 circuits