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Help me heat my garage...

harley jim

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have you adjusted the door roller/hinges to tighten the gap between your garage door and the frame. most installers leave them a little on the loose side. look at them and you should see the slots in them loosen the bolts and slide them tighter.
 
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moneyisflying

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have you adjusted the door roller/hinges to tighten the gap between your garage door and the frame. most installers leave them a little on the loose side. look at them and you should see the slots in them loosen the bolts and slide them tighter.

That is a good thought, but I have actually checked that and they are pretty tight. I think the extra vynal seal around the garage door, and sealing the holes where light is coming in should seal the door up about as tight as it's going to get.

I'll have a good idea how bad things are and what kind of differences some of these things make after I get my indoor/outdoor thermometer installed early next week, and then I'll start fixing the known insulation issues.
 

cagullett1

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Have you decided yet how you are going to plug up the holes between the door and concrete on the bottom corners?
 
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moneyisflying

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Have you decided yet how you are going to plug up the holes between the door and concrete on the bottom corners?

Not yet. I bought some spray foam that may or may not work, or I was thinking about just trying to find some grey foam insulation like the type you buy in stores to go around pipes and just cut it and secure it in place somehow.

I'm open to suggestions on that, but I think as long as it is sealed where no light can get it that it will make the bigges difference.
 

thebreeze2012

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Thank you for the info.

I'll be adding more insulation to the attic for sure, and my additional weather stripping is in the mail. I bought insulation today for all the outlets and light switches.

I found another place I know I am loosing heat. I have a custom doggy door in the wall of my garage. It's locked now but the only thing between the garage and the outside it 3/4" ply wood. I need to get some insulation and install it behind the door to take care of that.

I need some advice on this next topic; garage doors. I have heard a lot on both sides whether I am loosing heat from the doors themselves or not. They are insulated with 1 1/2" styrofoam insulation inside the door panels themselves. My bouilder believes this is enough and does not think I am loosing anything. The insulation company believes I am loosing some, but very minor amounts, and that much more is lost in the seals around the garage doors. The tech associate at Lowes who has worked insulation for over a decade believes I am loosing a bit from the doors themselves. It would be best to just insulate everything to cover all my bases, but I don't have an unlimited budget, and would rather spend money wisely on what will make the biggest difference if I can't afford it all. I bought some thin reflective roll insulation that I can cut and hopefully install on the back of the garage doors at Lowes today for $100. I still need to figure out how I'm going to install them as it is not a kit (a garage door kit for my sized doors is more than $200). I still have the reciept, and may return it if I can't figure a good way to install it, or if I find that it won't really make much of a difference.

Any thoughts on this? To me I think I'm loosing some because there is visible frost on the back sides of the doors. But my builder and mostly the insulation guy both think I'm not really losing much if anything, so if I could return it and save $100 to invest elsewhere, I would like to.






As far as the garage door, it's probably a R6, my garage doors is 1-3/8'' thick and is the same type of styrafoam stuff and its R6 I believe. So your walls are probably atleast a R13, so less then half then R value, so your loosing heat/cold about 2 faster from garage doors then the walls, your windows being double pane are probably R3 at best, and look at how many windows are in a house.


As mentioned tho, the ceiling is where the majority of the heat loss is, I would say my doors do pretty well, but have thought about adding 3/4 or 1'' foam board with some Velcro or silicone.


I would worry about the leaks and drafts and maybe getting some more insulation in the ceiling before worrying about the door. Do your doors point north? If they do, that's a good bit of negative degree air that came in that night.



We had about the same weather the other night ( -18 with 40-50 below wind chill) and a small sit on the top of a propane tank heater and a 1500w electric heater and hit a little over 50* in about a hour and a half then I shut the propane down, I started getting a headache from the fumes.
 
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moneyisflying

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Excellent points breeze.

I think I'll do just that. Sit and see how things change from insulation in the attic and known holes that need sealed first.

FWIW my doors face East.
 
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moneyisflying

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do you have the vinyl weatherstrips on the outside. they can be extended down onto the concrete and be attached with a tapconthYABCG39L.jpg

I do have vinyl weatherstrips around the outside of my door. If you noticed in the thread, I have ordered more to help seal things up even better.

The bottom of my garage door has a rubber seal that as the door closes it seals itself over the ground. (I will try to get pictures of this in the next few days). It does a good job of sealing the door to the ground unless there is snow or ice built up around where the door meets the floor, then I can see some light, but I have found if I just keep it clear it seems to seal up nicely.

So other than my bottom corners where I need to figure something out, I should be covered.
 
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moneyisflying

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My radiant floor heat extends to under the doors (no thermal break) just to keep the ice and snow off which can prevent a good seal. Works good.

My problem is that my "apron" is pretty flat and can allow rain to splash under the doors. I am thinking about getting something sort of like this to minimize the problem....

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00E24PFY6/?tag=atomicindus08-20

The only time I get ice or snow under the door is when I drive in the garage and it gets tracked in the garage from my car. I've just learned if I want to seal it up to just do one quick scrape with a shovel and it clears it right up and seals back up nice.
 
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moneyisflying

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Okay, so I received and installed my indoor/outdoor thermometer today, so I can know exactly the situation and what difference things make. Today was a good day to try it out since it was a standard cold Indiana winters day. I took measurements three different times of the day to see if it varied much and to get an average outside to inside temp differential. The first pic was taken about 10 am. The second was taken about 4pm, and the last was taken about 8 pm.


345h0sl.jpg


2evvifc.jpg


wwmayo.jpg




As you can see I've got about a 13 degree difference between inside and outside. It sure feels colder than that but at least I know I am getting somewhat of an insulated environment vs the outside.

When I get a chance to install the new garage door weather stripping, I'll check back in with any differences.
 
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moneyisflying

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Well today was the day things started to improve. I sealed that doggy door with 2" styrofoam insulation as well as sealed off the door to my loft above my garage.

Currently my insulation company is blowing an additional 8" of insulation in the loft.

15e7o5f.jpg
 

bczygan

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First step is to do a heat loss analysis.

From that you can determine the improvements you can make, to slow that heat loss. This will be a cost benefit decision making process.

At that point you can calculate the amount of BTUH needed for your location and weather and the required heat level. This will tell you the capacity of heater needed.

Simple as that.
 
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moneyisflying

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The garage has been accessed in great detail for heat loss. Past buying a heat gun, I doubt there is little else that could have been looked through. I have had both my builder and my insulation company come out on separate occasions to asses.

It was determined the biggest loss of insulation was the loft. This was done today. I did add a few more inches past the original 6" of additional. We will see the difference.
 
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bczygan

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The garage has been accessed in great detail for heat loss. Past buying a heat gun, I doubt there is little else that could have been looked through. I have had both my builder and my insulation company come out on separate occasions to asses.

It was determined the biggest loss of insulation was the loft. This was done today. I did add a few more inches past the original 6" of additional. We will see the difference.

No, what I mean is an actual calculation to see what the heat loss actually is in BTU's per hour.

This would be different, of course, before you improve the insulation and sealing, from what it is after.

It is necessary to calculate this accurately, to size the heating appliance you use.

Have you used smoke to find leaks?

Do you understand what I'm saying?

Bill
 
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moneyisflying

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Bill, as said, I know where the heat loss has been coming from now, and am taking appropriate action.

The heating element I will be adding will be the easy part (I already have the model picked out).
 

d.swanson

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Isn't your biggest heat loss going to be every time you open one of the garage doors to drive a car in or out? Maybe hang a bunch of plastic strips to act as a door while the door is open?
 
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moneyisflying

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Bill, I'm a USAF pilot flying heavies right now. I've had the privilege of flying many aircraft over the years from an experimental plane I've owned to an F-16. Fast, slow, tactical, or just for fun, I like it all.

D. Swanson, yeah that is a given. This whole project was just so that when the doors were closed and sealed that I could turn on the heater for 30 minutes or so and have heat for a few hours so I can do projects in the winter comfortably. It was never meant to keep the garage at 50+ degrees all through the winter or anything like that.

I'm going electric on the heater, so I just wanted things sealed up nice and tight so the heat would stay in and I wouldn't have to run the heater for long periods of time.
 

bczygan

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Bill, I'm a USAF pilot flying heavies right now. I've had the privilege of flying many aircraft over the years from an experimental plane I've owned to an F-16. Fast, slow, tactical, or just for fun, I like it all.

D. Swanson, yeah that is a given. This whole project was just so that when the doors were closed and sealed that I could turn on the heater for 30 minutes or so and have heat for a few hours so I can do projects in the winter comfortably. It was never meant to keep the garage at 50+ degrees all through the winter or anything like that.

I'm going electric on the heater, so I just wanted things sealed up nice and tight so the heat would stay in and I wouldn't have to run the heater for long periods of time.

UL and Sport Pilot friend of mine's son is AF. Started in B-52's and now is in B-1's.

We have a refueling group here at Selfridge ANG Base.

What kind of heavies?

What kind of experimental?

I've got a couple of Quicksilver Ultralights including an aerobatic Super. Have PPC, Fixed Wing and WSC endorsements.
 

rattleandhumm

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Hello, I am posting this quickly as I am getting ready to go out the door, so I will be honest and say I did not read every post on this thread so sorry if someone already has discussed these. I live in P.E.I. Canada. I installed a Fujitsu Mini split heat pump last march. I can not say enough positive things about these machines. I paid about $4000.00 (I thought expensive at the time) from march until nov of 2013, I could not see any difference on my electric bill, Dec and Jan I have seen an increase of about $100.00 each month. We are experiencing our coldest winter in 20 years, and the 100.00 per month for heat now is a welcome relief over the $800.00- $1200.00 per month I had paid previous years on oil. Where you are in a warmer climate I would expect you to spend $30.00 per month. Insurance companies here like these, it is safer than wood or oil. There are cheaper models on the market for sure, but I have a few friends who took this route and at -10 they have to turn on their oil furnace.
I think these are well worth your homework.
 
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moneyisflying

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There's no way I would ever drop that kind of coin on any heating unit for something like what I want. Even if it didn't cost a dime to operate, it would probably never pay for itself in its lifetime.

I've picked out an excellent electric heating unit for $275. It is more than powerful enough to heat my garage. For how well I hope the garage will be insulated, and for how often I plan on using it to do projects, I estimate I'll spend an additional $10 a month in electricity. If my calculations are accurate, that's some very inexpensive heat so I can do projects comfortably in my garage wearing jeans and a T-shirt in the middle of winter.
 
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moneyisflying

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I haven't bought the heating unit yet. I just have the one picked out that I believe I am going to go with (it's the one listed earlier in this thread from me).

I still have a few small things I want to do first, like install the faom inserts behind the light switches and outlets.
 

coolreed

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Well the first thing I would do is:

1. Insulate the garage walls and ceiling.

2. Install Insulated Garage Doors. (You can sell your old doors)

3. Install a Mini Heat Pump, Wood Burning Stove or Electric Heater.
(your choice)
 
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moneyisflying

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Well the first thing I would do is:

1. Insulate the garage walls and ceiling.

2. Install Insulated Garage Doors. (You can sell your old doors)

3. Install a Mini Heat Pump, Wood Burning Stove or Electric Heater.
(your choice)


Did you even read the thread?

The walls are insulated. The ceiling was too and I just insulated it even further. The garage doors are insulated also (as mentioned more than once before and even a pic of it). And I am installing an electric heater of my choice.
 
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moneyisflying

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6o3cw7.jpg


So it would seem the insulation is working.

13 degree difference between inside and out was what I was seeing before

21.5 degree differential is what I am seeing now after the insulation

That's an +8.5 degree difference just with insulation!

I still need to insulate the outlets and switches and fill a couple gaps in, but I don't expect these will add much more (maybe a little and that would be nice).

I need to do that, and then I can add the heating unit.
 
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moneyisflying

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So it was very cold thismorning, so I checked things out before I left for work.


ezou8.jpg




I am very impressed! 34.5 degree difference now from a 13 degree difference before, JUST from insulation!

I ordered the Farenheat 5,000 Watt heater yesterday and it should be here between the 20th and 24th.
 
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moneyisflying

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Just installed the new heater unit.

Man is it nice having heat in the garage! I am glad I went with the unit I did. It seems to run quietly, and does a great job at heating up the garage in a small amount of time. It seems like it is efficient. We will see the difference in my next electric bill to find out.
 

KoRNTERA

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This is true but it's referred to as COP coefficient of performance electric heat has a COP of 1 meaning you get 3.41 BTUs for every 1 watt input. This is mistaken for efficiency but it is just a simple conversion of input to thermal energy. Heat pumps typically have COP in the 3 to 20 range depending on there source this means 10 to 65 BTUs per watt input. this is my definition of efficient. In other words resistant heat is efficient at directly converting electrical input directly too heat but is inefficient based on the wattage input compared too the BTU output with todays technology.

Brian
Just wanting to correct some information here for others, COP on heat pumps range from around 3-5.3(worlds most efficient heat pump depending on how you figure COP is the Waterfurnace 7 series at 5.3 COP at part load) I think the 20 number you are referring to is SEER which is a common cooling rating for a high efficiency system and the minimum SEeR of a split system is 13, federally mandated.

To the OP the best way to compare costs is how much $$$ it takes to heat 1 million BTUs so you can accurately assess up front costs and down the road costs, depending on your ground loop size you might be able to easily add a geo console heater to your garage for an effective price AND low operating costs.

Edit: made it to page 4 and saw you found an option, glad it's working well! Great choice on the geo for the house.
 
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moneyisflying

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Just wanting to correct some information here for others, COP on heat pumps range from around 3-5.3(worlds most efficient heat pump depending on how you figure COP is the Waterfurnace 7 series at 5.3 COP at part load) I think the 20 number you are referring to is SEER which is a common cooling rating for a high efficiency system and the minimum SEeR of a split system is 13, federally mandated.

To the OP the best way to compare costs is how much $$$ it takes to heat 1 million BTUs so you can accurately assess up front costs and down the road costs, depending on your ground loop size you might be able to easily add a geo console heater to your garage for an effective price AND low operating costs.

Edit: made it to page 4 and saw you found an option, glad it's working well! Great choice on the geo for the house.


Heat pumps may be efficient, but you guys really need to do the math, as they are not anywhere close to being efficient money wise for each situation (especially ones like mine).

A "cheap" heat pump runs about $1,500+, and may cost a few dollars a month for me to operate when I would want to.

The price of the heating unit I chose cost a fraction of that. At the price of each unit, and how much each unit would cost me to operate on a yearly basis, I will be dead long before I would even break even on the cost of the heat pump. (This is to say nothing that neither heating unit will last that long and need repair/replacing).

Having a heat pump in my garage would be a HUGE waste of money.
 
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