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Add outlets and lights to 20x20 attached

TravisT

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Joined
Oct 22, 2011
Messages
156
Location
NoVA
I've recently moved and am trying to get the garage area more usable. With the snow we've experienced this year, it's tough to get motivated to get this done.

I currently have two screw type bulb lights lighting the entire garage. I recently installed two garage door openers, which doubled the lighting. I plan to replace the installed lights with a couple florescent tube fixtures. That part is easy.

I have one outlet in the garage right now (not including the two in the ceiling). I'd like to put an extension box on this and run conduit to 3 more outlets, as well as a couple of recessed lights in the bottom of the soffit storage to help with the shadows.

I've done plenty of electrical work before, and am very comfortable with that. I'm not sure of all the code requirements, and if anyone can offer pointers, that would be great.
 
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pattenp

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Jun 4, 2008
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One main code requirement is all the outlets need to be GFCI protected, but you probably already know that.
 
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TravisT

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Oct 22, 2011
Messages
156
Location
NoVA
Good point pattenp. I did already know that, and the outlet that I will be extending is the GFCI. I need to see how many other outlets are on that circuit now, but as far as I know it's just the garage outlets and the two outdoor outlets that are seldom used.

I'm thinking instead of doing recessed lights (I only have 2x4 framing, and finding lights that can fit in a 4" deep mounting surface is tough), I'm going to do outlets in the drop ceiling where the soffit is, and have one of the outlets switched for the lights and the other always on. Then I could either use flourescent lights plugged in or puck style LED under-cabinet lights.

Question. Can I run surface mount boxes around the walls and run romex out the back of one, through the wall up to the soffit area and continue romex through the soffit area outlets? I'm not sure what is required in the conduit - I know romex is good through the walls though.
 

pattenp

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You should run individual THHN wires in conduit. NM-b (Romex) can be put in conduit but you need to use larger conduit because of the higher fill of NM-b and also it's harder to pull in conduit. You can come out the back of a box and switch to NM-b for going inside the wall.
 
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2ManyProjects

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Jul 18, 2013
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I've recently moved and am trying to get the garage area more usable. With the snow we've experienced this year, it's tough to get motivated to get this done.

I can identify with that! :(

I currently have two screw type bulb lights lighting the entire garage. I recently installed two garage door openers, which doubled the lighting. I plan to replace the installed lights with a couple florescent tube fixtures. That part is easy.

I'm glad to hear you think so; but see below.

I have one outlet in the garage right now (not including the two in the ceiling). I'd like to put an extension box on this and run conduit to 3 more outlets, as well as a couple of recessed lights in the bottom of the soffit storage to help with the shadows.

Describe this "soffit storage" in more detail (and yes, a picture would be worth 1,000 words). Something you said below doesn't make sense in light of this.

I've done plenty of electrical work before, and am very comfortable with that. I'm not sure of all the code requirements, and if anyone can offer pointers, that would be great.

As "pattenp" pointed out, ALL 120V outlets installed in garages now need to be GFCI-protected. TTBOMK, that includes those ceiling mounted outlets which you're using to feed the GDOs; which is why I now recommend that GDOs be hard-wired. (Motors and GFCIs often do not "play nicely" with each other; so the combo is best avoided whenever possible.)

I need to see how many other outlets are on that circuit now, but as far as I know it's just the garage outlets and the two outdoor outlets that are seldom used.

Outdoor outlets also need to be GFCI-protected; AND they now require in-use weather-resistant covers.

I'm thinking instead of doing recessed lights (I only have 2x4 framing, and finding lights that can fit in a 4" deep mounting surface is tough), I'm going to do outlets in the drop ceiling where the soffit is, and have one of the outlets switched for the lights and the other always on. Then I could either use flourescent lights plugged in or puck style LED under-cabinet lights.

This is where things are starting to go sideways.

While your wall framing may well be "2x4", at least the structural parts of your ceiling will surely be AT LEAST 2x6, probably 2x8 or larger (especially if there is any sort of living space above the garage). If you have "Kitchen-style" cabinets, with decorative soffits above the uppers, those soffits MAY be framed with 2x4s. But even if so, such soffits rarely extend more than an inch or two past the face of the cabinet; so presumably, no opportunity to install recessed lighting there anyway -- unless perhaps you're talking about something else entirely?

Regardless of this issue, you also do NOT want to use plug-in lights if you can possibly avoid it, for the same reasons mentioned above WRT the GDOs. Fluorescent loads (especially large-ish fluorescent loads) can also play hob with GFCIs (and vice versa).

When you consider that some reasonably nice surface-mount "wrap" fixtures are available at very reasonable cost:

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Lithonia-Lighting-2-Light-Utility-Light-3348-2L32W-WRAP/100654395
92eeea00-35d4-4de6-9cd6-11e57dd051fc_300.jpg


http://www.homedepot.com/p/Lithonia...hite-Fluorescent-Light-Fixture-3324/202192968
39000172-ebf4-4c9c-8544-fe78d1fd119c_300.jpg


http://www.lowes.com/pd_163697-337-WP232RLU_0__?productId=3181895
080083518647.jpg


http://www.lowes.com/pd_336745-13537-336745_0__?productId=3686312
037949005377.jpg


http://www.lowes.com/pd_384285-337-WP217RNKLLU_0__?productId=50077497
080083615506.jpg


it only makes sense to use them, use enough of them to really do the job, AND install them properly.

 
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TravisT

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Oct 22, 2011
Messages
156
Location
NoVA
I'd like to provide comments to all of your questions/responses, but I'm short on time so I'll do what I can now. Hopefully it will clear up some of it.

See this link for a couple pictures of my soffit build. It's not too much farther along than it was in the picture.

Not sure of code requirements, and I've never been through the NEC code in any detail. I have done HVAC work which required some electrical work/inspections. I also have an electronics background. I'm not an inspector though, and don't claim to know the many code requirements other than some of the obvious ones.

With that said, my house was inspected in 2006 when it was built. I verified that the ceiling mounted GDO outlets are on the same circuit as my living room outlets. In fact, every house I've lived in across several states has been that way, which were all built between '97 and 2006 (6 houses total/3 different states). That may be a new code requirement, which if I understand correctly, wouldn't have to be updated unless a change to that circuit was necessary (which it wouldn't be in this case).

Next up, the single outlet that is in the garage is a GFCI. The load side of this outlet supplies the three additional outdoor outlets on the house (all have weatherproof covers). So the single garage outlet and the three outdoor outlets are GFCI protected. Additional outlets added to the garage would be added to the LOAD side of the GFCI in the garage, so they would be protected as well.

The framing confusion will likely be cleared up after seeing the shelving pictures in the link above. Maybe "soffit" is the wrong term, but it has been used for many similar installs on the forum, so I adopted the same term. The lights would be installed in the bottom of the shelving, shining down below the frame (which is built using 2x4 construction). It would basically shine down to where the tool box is located.

Since I have not done plug-in lights in the garage before, I have no experience with lights plugged into GFCI protected outlets. That is very good info to have. I'm not sure of the best option to power the lights if that is the case. It would me much more work to get the current light wiring over to the "soffit" cabinet lights. I also don't necessarily want all of the lights coming on with one switch (which is currently located in the living room adjacent to the garage).

Well look at that, I had time after all:thumbup:. I think I covered everything, but if there's something I skimmed over I'd like to have all the bases covered.

:beer:
 

2ManyProjects

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 18, 2013
Messages
757
I'd like to provide comments to all of your questions/responses, but I'm short on time so I'll do what I can now. Hopefully it will clear up some of it.

See this link for a couple pictures of my soffit build. It's not too much farther along than it was in the picture.

OK, after looking at the pics, I see what you're talking about. In essence, it's a home brew storage shelf that you've got running around (most of) the perimeter of the space. It's that shelving which is framed with 2x4s, not the ceiling itself.

Not sure of code requirements, and I've never been through the NEC code in any detail. I have done HVAC work which required some electrical work/inspections. I also have an electronics background. I'm not an inspector though, and don't claim to know the many code requirements other than some of the obvious ones.

With that said, my house was inspected in 2006 when it was built. I verified that the ceiling mounted GDO outlets are on the same circuit as my living room outlets.

That's not ideal; but as you pointed out, it's fairly common. And as long as it is ONLY the GDO(s) which share that circuit with the Living Room, it's probably not a major practical problem.

In fact, every house I've lived in across several states has been that way, which were all built between '97 and 2006 (6 houses total/3 different states).

You move around a lot! Military, perhaps?

Me, I'm 27 years into my "Five-Year House". :rolleyes2

That may be a new code requirement, which if I understand correctly, wouldn't have to be updated unless a change to that circuit was necessary (which it wouldn't be in this case).

I can't tell you which code cycle the "all GFCIs" requirement first appeared in; I suspect it was 2008; but I know for sure that it is part of the 2011 edition. As for whether or not you are "required" to observe it, that can depend on a couple of things, including the overall scope of the work (i.e., if the "remodel project" is major enough, you COULD be forced to update stuff that you otherwise would not be touching; all praise bureaucracy! :( ).

Next up, the single outlet that is in the garage is a GFCI. The load side of this outlet supplies the three additional outdoor outlets on the house (all have weatherproof covers). So the single garage outlet and the three outdoor outlets are GFCI protected.

Correct.

Additional outlets added to the garage would be added to the LOAD side of the GFCI in the garage, so they would be protected as well.

Well... Also correct, IF one presumes that ALL of the outlets will be fed from a single circuit. However, that is NOT what I usually recommend, at least if your plans for the garage (and particularly the work you expect to do in it) are at all ambitious. I prefer at least two 20A circuits to feed the general-purpose 120V outlets, even in relatively modest residential garages (with "relatively modest" still being defined as "more than a glorified car-parking facility").

The framing confusion will likely be cleared up after seeing the shelving pictures in the link above. Maybe "soffit" is the wrong term, but it has been used for many similar installs on the forum, so I adopted the same term. The lights would be installed in the bottom of the shelving, shining down below the frame (which is built using 2x4 construction). It would basically shine down to where the tool box is located.

As such, they are effectively task lights. If you do NOT plan to install cabinetry or additional shelving above your workbench, that could work fine; and the wrap-type fixtures I cited earlier would still be appropriate. They would surface-mount to the underside of your platform/soffit/shelf, with the wiring running through the framing.

But that still leaves the general lighting for the space as a whole to be dealt with.

Since I have not done plug-in lights in the garage before, I have no experience with lights plugged into GFCI protected outlets. That is very good info to have. I'm not sure of the best option to power the lights if that is the case.

I'd hard-wire them, without question. Install one or more switches to control them, as appropriate.

It would me much more work to get the current light wiring over to the "soffit" cabinet lights.

Why so? You're surely going to need to get power over there in any event, and NOT just for the lights. Workbenches (and the areas immediately adjacent to them) tend to have a strong gravitational pull on all things electrical -- electric hand tools (drills, sanders, etc.), rechargers for your various cordless tools, the stereo system (or at least a decent radio), maybe a bench grinder or small drill press, perhaps even a countertop beer fridge... and so on. In short, I can't imagine a useful workbench without a generous supply of electricity close at hand.

I also don't necessarily want all of the lights coming on with one switch (which is currently located in the living room adjacent to the garage).

That's easy enough to deal with. And I agree -- the switching needs to be much more granular and much more convenient than what you just described.

Well look at that, I had time after all:thumbup:.

As the saying goes, you didn't have time to write a short message. (I often don't, either. ;))

 
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