T8 vs T12, a few simple questions

[ScaldedDog]

With apologies to the late Dr. **** Treadway, I'm vacillating on the precipice of indecision. I've read all there is to read on here, and am more confused than ever. My situation:

I'm about to light a 32x34 garage (915sf internal, after subtracting a 77sf utility room. Walls are 9'6", with a 12' peak at the ceiling in the front 20', and a 9'6" ceiling in the back. I'll have 13 8' fixtures: 4 running up/down along each side of the slanted ceiling, and two running front/back at the peak. 3 more fixtures will run front/back on the flat ceiling area, which will serve as my workshop. The lights will be divided up on three switches. Given this, T8's will deliver 1.8w/sf, and high output T12's will deliver 3.1w/sf in the same space.

Here's a decent photo of the space:

My questions:

1) T8 RFI - Is there anyone on here with >10 8' T8 fixtures who does *not* experience interference with their radios? RFI is a deal killer for the T8's.

2) "Best" light - Which of the two choices will deliver light that is most pleasing to the eye? I know this is a personal choice but tell me what your experience has been. BTW, I'm planning 4100k bulbs for the T8's, but haven't yet decided what ones to run if I choose T12's.

3) Experience - Have any of you had both of these? Which did you prefer?

4) Mixing - Any advantage of mixing the the two types of fixtures? Any down side to that?

5) Flicker - Which of these will flicker less? The only reason I ask is that the T12 fixture I saw in Lowe's the other day was flickering like crazy, and the T8 right beside it was not. Is that generally the case?

6) Source - I was planning on getting these at Lowes or Home Depot. Any particular fixtures to buy or avoid at those places, or another source you'd suggest?

Thanks,

Mark

 

[hutch4472]

Mark.
I have a 30X50 shop with 14' eaves. I have twelve 4' fixtures (the type with the mirror above the bulbs to help the light shine down) each with 4 T12's. They hang right at 13' above the floor. They are like "surface of the sun" bright which I love. They have no flicker.
I have one 4' fixture with two T8's hanging about four foot over each work bench. I can barely tell any difference in brightness on the workbench when I turn them on. Wish I would have put T12's there also.........Your mileage may vary........
Hutch

WAIT...WAIT...WAIT I meant I have T5's NOT T12's.....and I do have the T8's above the workbench's......sorry Im retarded....Hutch

 

[Dragster Racer]

I don't have that many T8's hung yet, but haven't heard of complaints any more than the T12's. I would think it would be better with the modern ballasts they are using on the T8's.
I like the hot daylight bulbs simply because of the additional spectrum of light they provide. I'm not using for painting, just fab work etc.
I really like that they turn on at very low temps. I do not have that experience with the T12's.
I can't imagine there would be a problem with mixing, other than you have to stock both replacements. Oh, and the T12's days are limited. They say they are not going to make them after some date in the future. The T8's are more efficient, and in my experience give identical light to the T12's.
We had T5's in the office where I used to work (I was told). Those bulbs are very small, and really put out the light for thier size. I just don't see the fixtures or bulbs at many stores at this point.
I am going to try a Home Depot T8 fixture in the next couple days. I have one from Mennards, but the hd ones were cheaper, so I figured I would try one before buying 30 of them. Someone said that the fixture gets loose and the bulbs fall out, but I'm not sure I buy that. We will see.

 

[TheShrine]

Try this other discussion... http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=18886

 

[ddawg16]

When you say mix, I assume you are thinking of using T12's in fixtures for T12's, and T8's with the approprate electronic ballast? Otherwise, you can't mix them.

To summerize...T12's use the older style ballast which causes the lights to operate at 120 Hz...which is the most common source of flicker when the bulbs start to get old. T8's operate at a much higher freq...I think 50 Khz. Hence, no flicker.

You can get both bulbs in both soft white and Bright white. I've seen what I consider good results by using both type of bulbs....best of both worlds?

Yes...the T12's will eventually be gone. Initially the ban was supposed to take place last year....but there are so many fixtures out there using T12's that it would have been a big problem. As I understand it, for the time being, T12 bulbs and ballasts can be imported and/or manuf but not new light setups. So, the stock of T12 light packages you see are basically what is left in inventory....once most of that is gone...it's all T8.

RFI....that is the big unknown. I haven't looked at the related thread in awhile....I think I suggested someone try a noise test using a battery powered radio and then again using one plugged into the wall...using the same bat channel....I can see where an electronic ballast might generate more RFI....and I would expect it...but one would think with proper grounding that it might be acceptable. You also have to look at RFI noise as compared to the signal strength of the recieved radio station. If the signal is already at the threshold....ANY noise is going to be picked up by the front end of the reciever. One way to find out....take a portable AM radio with you to HD....wave that bad boy in front of the lights and see what you get. Make sure you try a few different stations.

 

[CenTex52Chevy]

Mark,

I have a mix of T12 and T8 in my shop, 13' x 40' with 10' ceilings. I don't notice any difference in light output between the two, but it has been harder to find T12 daylight bulbs around here.
I have a T8 fixture directly above where I have my radio and I've had no problems with RFI. Lights are on a separate circuit than the radio and all the fixture have good ground connections,

 

[Coastal]

I switched to T8's in one half of my shop, they are amazing. I have a 20x30 section they are in, I have 4 8' ballasts (16 bulbs all together) I got the daylight bulbs, and I am so happy, no flicker even in the cold and they are way brighter than the high output t12's. I plan to replace them all with t8's now. The Daylight is such a nice light too.

 

[10.5 outlaw]

I have a 30'x60' shop W/ 18-8' T8's and i'm real happy with the lighting,very
even light they don't make a sound.

 

[pattenp]

When you say mix, I assume you are thinking of using T12's in fixtures for T12's, and T8's with the approprate electronic ballast? Otherwise, you can't mix them.

To summerize...T12's use the older style ballast which causes the lights to operate at 120 Hz...which is the most common source of flicker when the bulbs start to get old. T8's operate at a much higher freq...I think 50 Khz. Hence, no flicker.

You can get both bulbs in both soft white and Bright white. I've seen what I consider good results by using both type of bulbs....best of both worlds?

Yes...the T12's will eventually be gone. Initially the ban was supposed to take place last year....but there are so many fixtures out there using T12's that it would have been a big problem. As I understand it, for the time being, T12 bulbs and ballasts can be imported and/or manuf but not new light setups. So, the stock of T12 light packages you see are basically what is left in inventory....once most of that is gone...it's all T8.

RFI....that is the big unknown. I haven't looked at the related thread in awhile....I think I suggested someone try a noise test using a battery powered radio and then again using one plugged into the wall...using the same bat channel....I can see where an electronic ballast might generate more RFI....and I would expect it...but one would think with proper grounding that it might be acceptable. You also have to look at RFI noise as compared to the signal strength of the recieved radio station. If the signal is already at the threshold....ANY noise is going to be picked up by the front end of the reciever. One way to find out....take a portable AM radio with you to HD....wave that bad boy in front of the lights and see what you get. Make sure you try a few different stations.

Where does all this info about the banning of T12's come from? I'm only aware of the banning of certian magnetic ballast for T12's. There are currently replacement ballast for T12's that are electronic. I don't believe we'll see T12's going away because there are alot of them installed. California is one state that is pushing for a ban on new installation of T12's but I'm not sure the status of that effort. Please see the following link. http://www.advancetransformer.com/uploads/media/FedBallastRulingflyer.pdf

 

[dbeaty]

So has anyone tried the t5's. Have a local electrical supply warehouse recommending qty 8 8' "T5 highbays" Guy has some computer formula and typed in my sq ft (2400), ceiling height (12'), and "office lightening" illumination as lighting and formula spit out Qty 24 8' T12's or Qty 20 8' T12 "High Output", or Qty 8 8' T5 Hightbays. Any one have any suggestions? Lights aren't cheap and I don't want to make the wrong purchase. greatly. Doing mostly fabrication of race car and storage. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Dragster Racer]

The T5's are awsome, but may not be economical due to high initial cost. You can get 4' T8 fixtures at the big box stores for about 9 to 10 bucks each.
I told you guys I would test the T8 from Home Depot. I did today. Used the chains for temp mount. Came back into the shop 15 minutes later after moving a little snow. Moved the scaffold to do some more ceilling work. Knocked the new fixture off and it dropped 15' to the concrete. Broke one bulb. Other bulb unhurt and still works. I meant to do that.
Oh well. I'll put it up with a new bulb again. The bulbs did not get loose anyhow.

 

[dbeaty]

So the T8's are cheaper than the T5's? Do they supply the same amount of light?

 

[Stargeezer]

So the T8's are cheaper than the T5's? Do they supply the same amount of light?

Price Point: I am purchasing T8's for my new garage. I bought a case of 24 each 96" T8's 5000K daylight and the cost was 6.48 per bulb at a local electrical/lighting firm.

and...RFI? My electrician is running isolated grounds to a few outlets for computer and radios etc. No lights on this circuit. Hope it works cleanly.

 

[ScaldedDog]

I have a 30'x60' shop W/ 18-8' T8's and i'm real happy with the lighting,very
even light they don't make a sound.

Go out there, right now, and turn on the radio. Car radio, component system, AM, FM, HD, whatever. All of 'em, if you can.


Do they work?

Mark

 

[ScaldedDog]

I got the daylight bulbs, and I am so happy, no flicker even in the cold and they are way brighter than the high output t12's. I plan to replace them all with t8's now. The Daylight is such a nice light too.

By "daylight", what color temperature do you mean? 5000k, 6500k?

Thanks,

Mark

 

[Dragster Racer]

6500 is usually considered dayllight.
Everything that I have seen is that the T5's are way more expensive than the big box 4' fixtures. I can't imagine that the output is that much different than the T8's, but I don't have any data to support that. They are very small and efficient though. Great for offices.

 

[IanF]

I've been converting all of our old/newer T12 fixtures to an inexpensive T8 4' fixture sold by Home Depot (less than $20, includes guard, but no lamps).

For me, the biggest benefit is these fixtures have 0 degree ballasts and light instantly in cold weather vs. most T12's which either have to warm up or sometimes don't work at all. Cold weather T12 ballasts are typically much more expensive.

A lot of residential-level T12 fixtures are designed for 34W lamps, vs the brighter 40W lamps and 40W lamps will often burn out quickly if used ina 34W-only fixture.

The garage radio gets less interference from the T8 fixtures than the T12's, but that's a function of the ballast rather than the lamp. Most T8 fixtures use electronic ballasts. Magnetic ballasts (worse RFI) are still common for T12's.

Personally, I don't care for 8' fixtures... unless they use 4' lamps. 8' lamps are a PITA to store and handle. Plus, you get more flexibility with 4' fixtures.

We rarely specify 8' lamp fixtures anymore as our clients like to stock as few lamp types as possible. (yes, I design this stuff for a living...)

T5 lamps are great for certain applications, but the fixture has to be designed to use them. There are some 4-lamp T5HO fixtures that would be great for some garages providing you have the ceiling height (about 12' minimum fixture height). Otherwise, glare and "hot-spots" could be an issue. I've started spec'ing T5 hi-bay (6-lamp) and lo-bay (4-lamp) in lieu of HID's for warehouse applications. The instant-on attribute makes them great for EM power whereas HID's need an additional quartz-restrike option.

 

[hutch4472]

WAIT...WAIT...WAIT I meant I have T5's NOT T12's.....and I do have the T8's above the workbench's......sorry Im retarded....Hutch


see my original post #2.....

 

[beelsr]

i don't know if i'd buy 30 lights from HD.

I have 21 in the garage and after 4 years, as of today, 13 of them need new ballasts. And I've returned some over the years as well. I'm so frustrated with them. I bought the Commercial Electric $28 ones - a pair of T8s with the large reflector. In the store, they were the ones with the "best" label. When I talked to the store manager, he said there's nothing they can do, they're out of warranty.

I would go to a local electrical supply house and see what they reccommend. that's what I'm going to do if I can't get any satisfaction working my way past the manager.

I may just say thehellwithit and get all new fixtures anyways. I've had a couple bulbs just magically "fall from the sky" and other niggling little problems with them. Life's just too short and busy enough to keep fighting the cheap <fill in the blank> battle. The longer I live the more true the saying is: Buy quality, you'll only cry once.

 

[IanF]

I agree those THD fixtures aren't the best. But they're cheap enough that I don't care so much. When the ballast blows, I buy another one, clean the dust off old one, put it back in the box and return it (wth my Southern accent turned up to 11): "I dunno... I plugged it in and it don't work..."

 

[pjm1]

So far in my 40x70 16' walls shop I have installed 9 of the Lowes 8' 4 bulb t8 fixtures. I ran the 6500k bulbs. I am very pleased with the light output. The RFI on the other hand is horrible. If I turn the lights on the FM radio goes to static, turn the lights off and the radio is clear. When I pull a vehicle in same thing. I wonder though if the construction materials affect this also. I used 29g metal for the roof and walls, and my cell phone doesn't work very well at all. Also I am a volunteer firefighter and my pager doesn't work reliably inside the shop. The cell phone and pager don't seem to care if the lights are on or off. Somewhat rambling but that has been my experiences so far.

One more thing, it has been as cold as 8 degrees inside the shop and the lights have always come on, they take a few minutes to get to full brightness, but they work.

 

[2LTim]

I have a **** load of T8-8' 4 tube fixtures that I salvaged from an old Southerland Building Supply location in Des Moines. I have had them for close to six years, and I would guess they had been there for close to ten years before it closed, I have had no problems with ballast or loose tube. Both locations where I have installed them are wood frame buildings. Both garages are wired with conduit and I have had zero problems with radio reception, AM, FM, hell, even XM works fine. Car radios, shelf unit, they all work fine. In the "Barn" location, the shelf unit is plugged into an outlet that is wired into the lighting circuit so it goes on and off with the lights. It also has a 4' single tube T8 directly under the shelf(metal) that it sits on, that lights up the work bench.
Tim

 

[ScaldedDog]

... I have installed 9 of the Lowes 8' 4 bulb t8 fixtures. I ran the 6500k bulbs. The RFI on the other hand is horrible.

Are your fixtures grounded?

Mark

 

[pjm1]

Yes, my fixtures are all grounded. The lighting that is up right now is also on its own circuit. Not sure, but I think it must just be the ballasts.

 

[10.5 outlaw]

My lights are the 4-4' ones and I purchased them at home depot.
they don't make any noise in my radio.

 

[ScaldedDog]

Are we onto something here with respect to T8's and RFI?

10.5 Outlaw - 18 8' 4-bulb Home Depot T8's in a wooden building - no RFI

pjm1 - 9 8' 4-bulb Home Depot T8's in a metal building - lots of RFI

2LTim - "**** load" of 8' 4-bulb T8's of unknown origin in a wooden building - no RFI

Is the common factor for RFI problems T8's in a metal building? This sounds like a poll question...

Mark

 

[buening]

I have RFI issues with the Lowes 8' T8 4 bulb units. I have four of those fixtures installed and the fixtures are grounded to the ground wire from the power supply.

 

[ScaldedDog]

I have RFI issues with the Lowes 8' T8 4 bulb units. I have four of those fixtures installed and the fixtures are grounded to the ground wire from the power supply.

Wooden or metal building? See the poll question I posted last night...

Mark

 

[Gary S]

When you say mix, I assume you are thinking of using T12's in fixtures for T12's, and T8's with the approprate electronic ballast? Otherwise, you can't mix them.
.

Correct. You can't mix the two sizes in a single fixture. The new fixtures I bought for my garage last year have electronic ballasts and can use either the T12 or the T8. But, to get them to start at 0 degrees, you need to use the T8 according to the paperwork.

 

[ddrewyor]

i don't know if i'd buy 30 lights from HD.

I also have the 4' HD Commercial Electric fixtures in my garage. 9 years ago when I built my garage, HD sold the brand Lights of America (T-12). I put in 8 of them and they are still going strong. The other 24 (T-8s), bought about 4 years ago began flaking out within 6 months and I tried to exchange then because they initially had a lifetime warranty. HD gave ma the run around and would not even exchange them after about a year or so because they changed the model number even thought the design was the same. Long story short, I found the T-8 fixtures from Lights of America and began swapping out the POS HD Commercial Electric lights. So far no problems and the oldest is 3 years old. Only about 9 more to go - should be within the next 20 - 30 minutes near as I can figure.

Dave
________
RAM RUMBLE BEE

 

[beelsr]

yep, bought from about 4-2 years ago. 2 year warranty now. Of course, I don't have the boxes from 4 years ago that said "lifetime".

Lights of America? Off to google....

The other 24 (T-8s), bought about 4 years ago began flaking out within 6 months and I tried to exchange then because they initially had a lifetime warranty. HD gave ma the run around and would not even exchange them after about a year or so because they changed the model number even thought the design was the same. Long story short, I found the T-8 fixtures from Lights of America and began swapping out the POS HD Commercial Electric lights. So far no problems and the oldest is 3 years old. Only about 9 more to go - should be within the next 20 - 30 minutes near as I can figure.

Dave

 

[ddrewyor]

Beelsr - The Tech guy at LOA sent me to Wal-MArt and sure enough they were there. Cost is ~ $10.00 each (bulbs are extra). I think the model number is like 8045. When I spoke with the guy at LOA, he pointed out a couple of items, the biggest being that their ballasts are not inside the fixture so heat does not build up and kill the ballast. Take care

Dave
________
Smoking Kills

 

[buening]

Wooden or metal building? See the poll question I posted last night...

Mark

Wooden building. I participated in the poll

 

[roger55]

I agree those THD fixtures aren't the best. But they're cheap enough that I don't care so much. When the ballast blows, I buy another one, clean the dust off old one, put it back in the box and return it (wth my Southern accent turned up to 11): "I dunno... I plugged it in and it don't work..."

I hope the Chinese company that manufactured the ballast ends up footing the bill for this instead of Home Depot.
My conscience would keep me from doing this to anyone except China.

 

[beelsr]

Thanks for the info...

Beelsr - The Tech guy at LOA sent me to Wal-MArt and sure enough they were there. Cost is ~ $10.00 each (bulbs are extra). I think the model number is like 8045. When I spoke with the guy at LOA, he pointed out a couple of items, the biggest being that their ballasts are not inside the fixture so heat does not build up and kill the ballast. Take care

Dave

 

[IanF]

I hope the Chinese company that manufactured the ballast ends up footing the bill for this instead of Home Depot.
My conscience would keep me from doing this to anyone except China.

I spent a good portion of my working life in retail... If THD isn't getting money back from the manufacturer then shame on them... so my conscience is clear.

 

[strnge]

Thanks for the info...

Did you find any? Did you install them yet?

 

[beelsr]

nope. going to wally tomorrow, been out of town....

Did you find any? Did you install them yet?

 

[beelsr]

well, i bought 2 of the LOA units at Wal-Mart last week and both are DOA. One bulb on oene of them flickered a little but would never kick on. The other light just wouldn't fire a bulb at all...

Going back when I put them back together...

 

[hldtyt]

Anyone ever seen these, if so sorry for the repost!

http://goinggreenlighting.com/LED_TUBE_SPECS.html