Planner vs Router for 3 piece crown moldings?

[Filson]

Hey guys,

I'm wanting to put 3-piece crown moldings in our new house. I'm assuming it would save some money making my own moldings with a planner or router, am I wrong on this? While I really hate to buy a new tool for the shop I'd need an idea of which way I should go, and wanted your guys opinions.

I've looked around the net a bit, and ultimately the answer I keep finding is "it depends".

From my understanding, a router will have more bits to choose from than a planner... but a planner will have a lot more power to do large amounts of work - is that a fair assessment?

I would also like to replace the staircase in the house and wouldn't mind playing around with some designs if I had the ability to do so.

I'm sure if I had the equipment, there would be other projects I'd enjoy doing too, like bookshelves and such.

So what are some of the pros/cons of each in your guys opinions? What can a router do that a planner cannot, or vise versa?

 

[wrenchguy]

a planner planes the whole board surface smooth and is used to change it from rough sawn to smooth. a shaper or molder will cut numerous profiles on material and u may use it for all kinds of trim to build up your crown. a router is a small shaper. most people use multiple pieces of off the shelf trim to build up 3 member crown.

 

[Just_George]

My opinion.....routers are great, and one of the most versatile tools in the shop, but not well suited to making large moldings. When you say planer, I assume you're talking about one of the planer/moulders available from Jet, Grizzly, and others. They're not bad tools for that kind of thing and have the added benefit of working as a 'standard' planer. Probably the best option if you plan on needing either of those functions down the road.

All that being said, everybody needs at least one router! Some of us, in fact, feel the need to own, uhhhh...several. They really are incredibly useful and flexible tools.

I use a Williams & Hussy moulding machine to make crown...might be worth your while to see if you can find somebody local who can run it for you.

 

[Filson]

****, I meant shaper haha, my bad.

Do you think it'd be cost prohibitive, about even or save money to shape out my own pieces? I'll be ~ 1.5 hrs one way from the nearest hardware store, so was thinking it'd be easier (and more fun) to make my own.

 

[jakemac]

Forget the shaper, buy the router for "around the house" projects. Then buy your moldings at the lumber yard. It may cost more per foot, but you save it back on the labor and aggravation. Setting up for consistent moldings will drive you nuts, then when you run short, you have the extra annoyance of having to get the set-up just right to match what you did last week.

 

[Filson]

My opinion.....routers are great, and one of the most versatile tools in the shop, but not well suited to making large moldings. When you say planer, I assume you're talking about one of the planer/moulders available from Jet, Grizzly, and others. They're not bad tools for that kind of thing and have the added benefit of working as a 'standard' planer. Probably the best option if you plan on needing either of those functions down the road.

All that being said, everybody needs at least one router! Some of us, in fact, feel the need to own, uhhhh...several. They really are incredibly useful and flexible tools.

I use a Williams & Hussy moulding machine to make crown...might be worth your while to see if you can find somebody local who can run it for you.

No, I miss-spoke myself. I meant a shaper (still new to woodworking lol).

Anyway, I seen this on CL and that's what got me thinking about a router vs a shaper and thought I'd ask you all.

http://spokane.craigslist.org/tls/4352869806.html

Maybe I'll have to get both.

 

[Filson]

Forget the shaper, buy the router for "around the house" projects. Then buy your moldings at the lumber yard. It may cost more per foot, but you save it back on the labor and aggravation. Setting up for consistent moldings will drive you nuts, then when you run short, you have the extra annoyance of having to get the set-up just right to match what you did last week.

LOL!

Good point. Any recommended brands for a good router?

 

[woody 73]

Funny of al my woodworking machines I do not own a dedicated molder. You can walk into any home and take a piece of the old molding and send it into a machine shop and they can cut you the blades for the molding sample that you gave them; which is a great way to make extra money on the side.

You can then feed tons of material (wood of your choice) into the machine 24/7 and produce any design that you can think of.

A router on the other hand is slow going, don't get me wrong it will get the job done (trust me been there), but forget about the 24/7 because the motor will not hold up to that kind of punishment for a large job. Instead you will need to give it a rest when it gets to hot.

Oh and the part about one having more bits then the other...Let me tell you the sky is your limit as you can have that machine shop make you new blades as long as you can dream up new molding designs. If you go with the router be sure and look into buying Whiteside bits (expensive like snap on but you get what you pay for).

 

[Zeke]

I'm a carpenter and I wouldn't mess with making something like a crown. Many lumber yards will make custom moldings for the price of the lumber and a set up charge. They will give you and charge you for only what turns out. No chatter or tearing out the grain.

If you're relatively new to the woodworking scene, you will be tested by putting up a multiple crown/cornice. When I do this I make up an inside corner, an outside corner (if needed) and a straight stack. I mark the positions of each board in several places and then snap a line to see how far off some of the marks are due to variations in the wall and ceiling. It's much worse on older plaster homes. You end up doing a lot of scribing.

 

[Zeke]

Porter Cable and Bosch make nice routers.

 

[jakemac]

LOL!

Good point. Any recommended brands for a good router?

I have a small router, but it's done a lot of work. It's a Porter-Cable model #690, with both the Fixed base and Plunge base. With an extra fixed base, you can mount it to a table-top router table and swap the motor-head in and out depending on if you need to use it on the table or portable. I've had mine for close to 20yrs and it still runs like new.

 

[Filson]

I'm a carpenter and I wouldn't mess with making something like a crown. Many lumber yards will make custom moldings for the price of the lumber and a set up charge. They will give you and charge you for only what turns out. No chatter or tearing out the grain.

If you're relatively new to the woodworking scene, you will be tested by putting up a multiple crown/cornice. When I do this I make up an inside corner, an outside corner (if needed) and a straight stack. I mark the positions of each board in several places and then snap a line to see how far off some of the marks are due to variations in the wall and ceiling. It's much worse on older plaster homes. You end up doing a lot of scribing.

Porter Cable and Bosch make nice routers.

Yikes, yeah you guys have made me shy away from the idea of making my own crowns lol.

Thanks for all the input and advise, Zeke!

 

[A_Pmech]

What kind built-up of mouldings are you thinking of? Mouldings built up from standard pine shapes and painted, or something a bit more special like one-off clear finish hardwood?

If the former, just buy the stuff and sort for grade. If the latter, I've run miles of custom mouldings on a Rockwell 3hp shaper, so it can be done. Keep in mind, the stock feeder you use with the shaper is just as important as the shaper itself.

Depending on the profiles, you might be able to stack cutters or you may need a corrugated moulding head.

 

[Filson]

What kind built-up of mouldings are you thinking of? Mouldings built up from standard pine shapes and painted, or something a bit more special like one-off clear finish hardwood?

If the former, just buy the stuff and sort for grade. If the latter, I've run miles of custom mouldings on a Rockwell 3hp shaper, so it can be done. Keep in mind, the stock feeder you use with the shaper is just as important as the shaper itself.

Depending on the profiles, you might be able to stack cutters or you may need a corrugated moulding head.

Honestly haven't picked out any specific style yet. Just looking through google images and seeing a lot of ideas that we like. I'm a super-patient person, but the guys have pretty quickly scared me away from trying to make mouldings myself, at least any time soon lol.

 

[A_Pmech]

What about it scares you?

 

[sr71]

Ditto...lumber yard or mill. Here's a link to a mill in my area...(just for reference). If you can't find the profile you want they'll make a cutter for you...also (at least at this mill).... you can pick the rough stock you want and they'll mill to shape. Just not worth it to do yourself http://armstrongmillworks.com/moldings.aspx

 

[Filson]

What about it scares you?

Everyone here is saying it can be pretty difficult and frustrating lol. I was pretty excited about ripping some out, but didn't know what I didn't know I suppose.

 

[Filson]

Ditto...lumber yard or mill. Here's a link to a mill in my area...(just for reference). If you can't find the profile you want they'll make a cutter for you...also (at least at this mill).... you can pick the rough stock you want and they'll mill to shape. Just not worth it to do yourself http://armstrongmillworks.com/moldings.aspx

Jesus, that's quite a selection lol.

Whenever this happens, we'll be painting the mouldings I'm sure, not sure what differences the rough stock will make really?

 

[jakemac]

I wouldn't tell you it's too hard. It can be rewarding. I'm just saying that it's more bother than it's worth. In the end, it's more cost effective to buy it pre-made. That will allow you to get the job done, and move on to other projects.

As an example, I had a tenant that destroyed the frame on the front door of a 100yr old house. I couldn't use modern door moulding to repair it, so I had to use a router to make a new piece to match the rest of the door frame. What should have taken 30min to do, ended up taking all day to set up, match the old frame, route, install, and clean up. I could have spent those 6 1/2 hours sitting by the lake with a beer in my hand plotting my revenge.

 

[Just_George]

Everyone here is saying it can be pretty difficult and frustrating lol. I was pretty excited about ripping some out, but didn't know what I didn't know I suppose.

I call b.s. on that! Then again, to me that's part of the fun and challenge of it. Sure, you can always pay somebody to do it, but doing it yourself has it's own rewards, plus you can select the lumber you want. Mills near me will typically charge a $25 setup fee, the cost of the material, plus a per-foot cost to run it.

I'd be lost without my shaper - they're a bit scary for folks that haven't used one before, but incredibly useful once mastered. Regarding the CL one you posted, or any shaper for that matter, a power-feeder is an absolute must-have in my book.

Bosch makes very good routers. Porter Cable always did - the 690 series routers were the standard for years. But...PC has changed hands too many times over the last few years and manufacturing has all been moved out of the US, so they're not as high on my list as they used to be. Dewalt makes some nice routers as well...or Festool if you wanna open up THAT can of worms!

 

[Voi]

Unless you already have a jointer and planer you're going to spend a fortune on S4S or straight-line ripped/planed stock suitable to pass through a shaper or table mounted router table.

Money savings will be greater at your end starting with rough sawn lumber than by doing to final milling yourself.

But by no means am I trying to talk you out of doing this yourself.

 

[woody 73]

Woodworking is fun don't be afraid, I see from your post that instead of molder you wanted a shaper, keep looking at your local CL for a good used one and go have some fun...Although don't have any beer until after the job is done!

 

[sr71]

...also if you plan to paint you can save money and time by buying pre-primed fingerjoint crown. In this case...I usually paint with semi-gloss before cutting and touch up accordingly after install.

 

[Filson]

Thanks for all the input guys,

I think I will look around to see if I can find some designs I like locally, and if I do, I'll just go from there. I do however, still want to pick up a router for other stuff around the house. My wife and I are very avid readers (dedicating one of the extra bedrooms in the new house as a personal library) and I'd like to make the bookshelves and such, I think it'd be a fun project.

 

[mjozefow]

Everyone here is saying it can be pretty difficult and frustrating lol. I was pretty excited about ripping some out, but didn't know what I didn't know I suppose.

I currently make a living doing custom millwork and cabinetry. It isn't easy to make moldings, but it isn't rocket science either. A methodical approach with a strong focus on safety will get you a long way.

If you haven't already considered it, a 10" tablesaw with a molding head will do a lot of work. You can also cut large coves on a table saw with a standard blade.

For a three piece built-up crown, the center piece is often a cove with the two bed pieces having a simple profile. Post the profile you want and perhaps A_P or I could tell you how to cut it.

 

[cheechi]

My wife and I are very avid readers (dedicating one of the extra bedrooms in the new house as a personal library) and I'd like to make the bookshelves and such, I think it'd be a fun project.

If you are going to do custom built ins, get at least the wood, design, & finish picked out before starting the crown.

Some crown is tall enough that between it and the top molding on the bookshelves, you lose almost an entire top shelf. Doesn't seem like a lot until you thought you could have recessed lighting and a soffit to hid the wiring. You also don't want to settle on something that's great everywhere and get to that room last. Either it won't look right or you'll have to redesign what you really wanted.

What else have you planned? are you changing anything that would involve chair or floor moulding? I would honestly do and try all the things you want to do, then the mouldings absolutely last if you are doing it in a diy no deadlines style project. Just like mentioned above where you can have a lot of scribing, sanding, matching, etc just to make the crown work, it is the icing on the cake so to speak. you don't want to redo it once it's up.

 

[Outlawmws]

I started with a router, first for cutting rabbits and slots for fixed position interlocking boards, then for adding decorative edges. Big molding I just buy, but I have a smaller shaper table now If I ever get it setup, as well as molding heads for the table saw/radial arm.

If you do a LOT of molding, then go for it. If it's the occasional piece, or project, it's not cost effective.

 

[Filson]

A methodical approach with a strong focus on safety will get you a long way.

If you haven't already considered it, a 10" tablesaw with a molding head will do a lot of work. You can also cut large coves on a table saw with a standard blade.

For a three piece built-up crown, the center piece is often a cove with the two bed pieces having a simple profile. Post the profile you want and perhaps A_P or I could tell you how to cut it.

Table saws, routers, shapers, buying vs making, etc. etc. My head is spinning on the subject haha. If I decide to try and make my crowns I'll throw you a pm if you don't mind, I appreciate the help!

If you are going to do custom built ins, get at least the wood, design, & finish picked out before starting the crown.

Some crown is tall enough that between it and the top molding on the bookshelves, you lose almost an entire top shelf. Doesn't seem like a lot until you thought you could have recessed lighting and a soffit to hid the wiring. You also don't want to settle on something that's great everywhere and get to that room last. Either it won't look right or you'll have to redesign what you really wanted.

What else have you planned? are you changing anything that would involve chair or floor moulding? I would honestly do and try all the things you want to do, then the mouldings absolutely last if you are doing it in a diy no deadlines style project. Just like mentioned above where you can have a lot of scribing, sanding, matching, etc just to make the crown work, it is the icing on the cake so to speak. you don't want to redo it once it's up.

Yeah there's actually quite a few projects my wife and I would like to do with the place... With the crowns being up so high I never really thought of them as a last "icing in the cake" but it makes a lot of sense.

I plan on rebuilding the staircase, moving the kitchen to the other side of the house, and turning the current kitchen into a laundry/mud room, the book shelves I have no idea if I'll make them built in or not yet, and the master bedroom with vaulted ceilings is actually upstairs, where I'd like to build a door going out to a balcony... the list goes on.

I started with a router, first for cutting rabbits and slots for fixed position interlocking boards, then for adding decorative edges. Big molding I just buy, but I have a smaller shaper table now If I ever get it setup, as well as molding heads for the table saw/radial arm.

If you do a LOT of molding, then go for it. If it's the occasional piece, or project, it's not cost effective.

I'll be doing the whole house when I get around to doing it. I think cheechi made a good point about getting other projects done first. That gives me some time to think and decide which way I want to go. Thanks for the help, outlaw!

 

[bareass172]

I'll echo pretty much everything stated before. Woodworking is fun, even if a bit challenging at first. I would agree that I'd enjoy making my own moldings, but typically pricing makes it easier to just buy what you want (unless you REALLY want to make it! ). I'm not sure in your area, but my local CL is flush with shapers all the time, so if you're looking I'd start there.

Another thing to consider, I don't know what your ceiling heights are, but my folks bought a new house a few years ago and it has very high ceilings. What the builder did to cut costs was to put a large piece of molding at the ceiling to make the top, then come down 6" or so and put a small piece of molding to make the bottom. He then painted the 6" section of wall inbetween white to match the molding and because of the height of the ceiling you honestly cannot tell it's not all molding. I know it's cheap cost-cutting stuff but if your budget is tight, you want tall molding, and you have high ceilings it might be an idea...

 

[catalytic]

If you want to make moldings, there is nothing better than a Williams & Hussey Molder. They have been around for about 70 years, and I know of many operations that do victorian house renovations (read: molding everywhere) and custom molding that love them.

 

[bczygan]

The answer is obvious.

Grab that shaper.
Buy your trim.
Get a router.
And keep a good eye on CL for more good stuff!

 

[jkwilson]

If you're relatively new to the woodworking scene, you will be tested by putting up a multiple crown/cornice. When I do this I make up an inside corner, an outside corner (if needed) and a straight stack. I mark the positions of each board in several places and then snap a line to see how far off some of the marks are due to variations in the wall and ceiling. It's much worse on older plaster homes. You end up doing a lot of scribing.

I watched my grandfather do this when I was a child, but I didn't appreciate the skill it took until he was long gone and I tried to do it myself. He used a pencil, a plane, a coping saw, a miter box and a sanding block. I had a lazer level, a miter saw and a belt sander and thought it would be easy.

You don't realize how crooked walls and ceilings are, even in new houses, until you try to install molding or cabinets. If walls were flat and corners were 90 degrees, anybody could do it.

 

[strutaeng]

If you are just starting, I would skip the shaper and choose the router instead. I build furniture and have never had the need for a shaper. A PC 690 or Bosch router is a very versatile tool.

A shaper is better suited for production millwork. It has one and only one use, plus it takes a lot of space. A router is very versatile and compact.

Good luck

 

[mjozefow]

I would advise buying a good table saw and exploring the depths of what it can do. Then buy a router table or shaper and do the same. After that a planer, jointer, bandsaw, and chop saw can be added.

There are at least five ways to do every woodworking operation. This includes many of the hand tool options not mentioned here (I'd encourage you to look into those though, as they are relatively cheap on the used market).

Knowing all of the capabilities of your machines will work to your benefit when you get into tricky situations on more difficult projects later in your woodworking career.

 

[ctb]

I don't know if you can get these in the states, but over here in Europe they mostly use the pre-moulded polystyrene mouldings for ceiling work. They're made to be painted and look really good when up. Plus they're a lot cheaper than wood; anything made of wood is dear over here. These are google images of what they look like.