let's see your craftsman block grinders

[drivesitfar]

welcome to Garage Journal because it looks like you are a new member and glad to see you have your first Block grinder.

most of the questions are answered on this thread so if you can read through which might take you a bit that will help you. if you still have questions there are plenty of restore threads that several of the members started on separate threads and some are linked out of this thread.

i know it is quite a bit to read, but you'll learn a lot about your grinder and when you have a question that hasn't been answered several times we are happy to answer.

not trying to avoid your questions which are good by the way and just helping you learn the ways of GJ that will help you best.

 

[jakemac]

Somewhere in this thread (several posts in fact) you will find links for replacement quench trays and mounting grommets (check the posts in Feb/March '14). New bearings can be found at your local bearing supply. Switches are more difficult to find. Most of the other electrical components are still available (possibly under different part #'s).

If there is no vibration when the wheels are off, then the new vibration you're seeing is caused by the wheels.

If there is no play or noise, in the arbor, then the bearings should be good but may need new grease. With the wheels on, the machine should take a few minutes to wind down. If not, the bearings may need grease, or replacement.

Good luck, and keep us informed on how it works for you.

 

[rickhigginshtbr]

If there is no play or noise, in the arbor, then the bearings should be good but may need new grease. With the wheels on, the machine should take a few minutes to wind down. If not, the bearings may need grease, or replacement.

Even the 1/3HP? Mine takes about 30-45 seconds... though I think i've used it more in the past year and 1/2 than it's been used in the 45 years prior... my 1/2HP that I rarely use (yet) takes 2-3 minutes to wind down...

 

[jakemac]

Even the 1/3HP?

I could be wrong on the 1/4 and 1/3 hp models. I haven't had the chance to ruin one yet.

 

[Outlawmws]

A lot of the wind down can be affected by the weight of the wheel also. the heavier they are the longer it will spin once up to speed.

 

[torqueman2002]

I started a Poll to guage the interest in arbor adapters/extenders.

Once Kevin54 has a number, he will set a price.

If you are interested in a pair or more of the adapter/extenders please follow the link below.

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=245593

If you want more than 1 of each, post in a reply on that link; as I'm not certain the poll will allow re-posting.

 

[David99]

I Think I've caught a disease.

Last Friday I Purchased this one for $50.


Today I run across this one for $10, this picture was shot right after taking it out to the car prior to dis-assembly.


also any advice on the best methods for stripping the old paint ?

 

[jakemac]

$10 for the second grinder w/ original pedestal ? YOU **** !!

 

[emeraldcoupe]

$10 for the second grinder w/ original pedestal ? YOU **** !!

x10 damn!

 

[torqueman2002]

x10 damn!

 

[softailgarage]

He text me back, we're at $225.00 now. Told him still to much, he said the door is open for future talks...

$10.00... major suckage, and I was all giddy I called him back, $150.00 going to get it tomorrow. $10.00? man, you really do ****

 

[torqueman2002]

... I was all giddy I called him back, $150.00 going to get it tomorrow. ...

Now that's more like it!

 

[softailgarage]

Garage Journal... It's like a frickin disease! The more I read, the more I buy.

 

[WeAreNotAlone]

Source needed for buying a Klixon F8A 4CR-20-728 start relay.

Hello all,

Source needed for buying a Klixon F8A 4CR-20-728 start relay. /relay that will interchange

I see this thread is for "pics" of your grinder and I realize the info might be out there somewhere but I've been Googling for a couple of days for info on getting a 397.19340 1/2 hp 115v A/C. Split-Phase Grinder operational.

Got it several years ago and for some reason I thought it was 3-phase so I never messed with it.

Need it ASAP for a project so I'd appreciate some input.
(Picture you are Noah building a boat for the flood, and you have 3 days to complete 30-days worth of work.) :-(

Bearings are good. Unit looks pretty good.

Upon hitting the power switch- Wheels do not spin up, Grinder makes a growling noise.
If I spin the wheels and hit the power switch the same noise occurs and the wheel stops spinning INSTANTLY.

Problem turned out to be the Klixon F8A 4CR-20-728 starter relay. If I disconnect starter windings from relay and upon powering up briefly jumper starter windings to power source grinder starts, then runs fine.
(If I had to guess it's not releasing the starter windings as the starter windings are discolored..which concerns me.)

Q1: Anyone know of a source for a "reasonable priced replacement" for the 4CR-20-728 starter relay? I'm thinking with the starter windings being DISCOLORED it will have to be rewound sooner, than later so $49.95 via Klixon IIRC sounds sort of steep, assuming Klixon will sell to the end user.

(As a aside how much is the cost to rewind the windings? Looks like a pretty good amount of copper in the grinder..)


Q2: Is there any other relay that will work? I would assume there are (common) start relays used in HVAC that would work.

Kilxon rating table /spec sheet pdf says Klixon F8A 4CR-20-728:

Max pick up = 15.8 amps
Min drop out =13.00

Ad copy states start winding amp contacts are rated = 25amps (up to?)

Seems to me another "Start Motor Relay" from something else could be used.



Q3: Is it possible to disassemble the relay, clean and polish contacts?


Q4: One thought was if a relay cannot be found is to install a push-button switch that momentarily applies power to the start windings... but I hate to do such a hack.

I would appreciate some straight answers. I need the grinder for a project that needs to be completed asap, the project in itself a HUGE undertaking that is eating up ALL my time. Oh, I'm not making any money off the project btw. :-(

Please:
I understand the concept of telling people to search as one poster stated above as a way to learn your way around a board but I've been searching for a couple of days without much luck and don't have any time to spare.


Wife has laid down the law and has said this is the year to haul off everything that isn't working as scrap... She's asked me about the status of the grinder several times already and if I don't get it fixed soon (parts ordered) she said she's going to make it "disappear", or I get a divorce.... Something like that

Thanks!

 

[torqueman2002]

Re: Source needed for buying a Klixon F8A 4CR-20-728 start relay.

My replies are in Blue, below. And welcome to the forum.

....
Upon hitting the power switch- Wheels do not spin up, Grinder makes a growling noise. That's a symptom of a Start-up winding not powering up.
If I spin the wheels and hit the power switch the same noise occurs and the wheel stops spinning INSTANTLY. The Start-up winding stays in the circuit until ~85% of the run speed. You need to get the arbor spinning very fast to over come the EMF at start up. If that is all that is wrong.

Problem turned out to be the Klixon F8A 4CR-20-728 starter relay. If I disconnect starter windings from relay and upon powering up briefly jumper starter windings to power source grinder starts, then runs fine. :-(
(If I had to guess it's not releasing the starter windings as the starter windings are discolored)

Q1: Anyone know of a source for a "reasonable priced replacement" for the 4CR-20-728 starter relay? I'm thinking with the starter windings being DISCOLORED it will have to be rewound sooner, than later so $49.95 via Klixon IIRC sounds sort of steep, assuming Klixon will sell to the end user. Try: http://www.sensata.com/klixon/motor-protector-4cr.htm and: http://www.sensata.com/download/4cr.pdf

(As a aside how much is the cost to rewind the windings? Looks like a pretty good amount of copper in the grinder..) I think there's a rebuild thread on a DoAll that the OP rebuilt the motor, or it was another thread he did.

Q3: Is it possible to disassemble the relay, clean, polish contacts?
Yes. See: "Block Grinder rescue - HD Big Blue unknown model and HP"
http://tinyurl.com/Go-Blue-Block-Grinder
page 3
#35 Baldor video of Baldor large motor manufacturing.
page 5
#62 Where I "open up the relay to check & clean the contacts"
....
Thanks!

Also, try: "Vintage Craftsman "Block Motor" bench grinder info -" Thread
http://tinyurl.com/CM-Block-motor-style-grinders
Let us know how you make out and post up some pics.

 

[David99]

It seems a slight suckage reduction is in order-
$10 grinder just hum's when powered on, even if I can't get it running at least it will donate it's stand to the other.

 

[organ]

It seems a slight suckage reduction is in order-
$10 grinder just hum's when powered on, even if I can't get it running at least it will donate it's stand to the other.

could be start capacitor. Or, and I've had this problem, try another outlet... couldn't get my 1/2 HP to run after replacing the bearings. Thought I'd hooked something up wrong. Turns out one of the two sockets in that particular outlet wasn't putting out enough power. Plugged the grinder into another outlet and it started right up.

 

[drivesitfar]

WeAreNotAlone: you are in the right place if you want more knowledge about your block grinder. can you post pictures and as you are taking it apart and are having questions? the answers are probably already written on this thread or there will be an easy link to follow to find it. or post the question if you tried to find the answer and didn't after a search.

learn how to use Garage Journal and your knowledge or tools will improve a ton and we are always happy to have a new member and hear what he knows so we can learn more.

Welcome to garage journal and best of luck with your block grinder fix.

 

[jakemac]

It seems a slight suckage reduction is in order-
$10 grinder just hum's when powered on, even if I can't get it running at least it will donate it's stand to the other.

suckage still applies - the stand alone is worth 10+ times what you paid.

 

[GirchyGirchy]

I need some help - picked up a decent 1/4 hp from 1969 yesterday, with a light but no quench tray. However, the right side wheel guard (surrounds the wheel and attaches to the main motor body) is bent inward on the bottom, from a fall maybe?

Anyway, I'm guessing these are cast aluminum and might be brittle. Should I try to straighten the bend or would that more than likely result in it breaking? I could have it welded if that does indeed occur.

I'll post pictures later, getting ready to head out. Thanks!

 

[organ]

Knowing my own luck, I'd leave it alone.

 

[drivesitfar]

Girchy: most of the block grinders I've seen are built to take a little abuse, but i'm worried that the arbor could have been bent if it did indeed fall on the ground. have you run it to plugged yours in to see if it runs ok?

i'd take the guard off and do some light hammering to pound it back in shape and give it a little character. or is it already cracked?

if you don't need the quench tray i think Brent has some extra guards he was trying to trade or sell for one. if you just want to buy one if he still has them i bet he would use the cash to buy his missing quench tray if he hasn't already.

we don't have a parts thread for these grinders that i know of but some of these guys have some spare ones to trade or sell if you ask.

 

[torqueman2002]

I need some help - picked up a decent 1/4 hp from 1969 yesterday, with a light but no quench tray. However, the right side wheel guard (surrounds the wheel and attaches to the main motor body) is bent inward on the bottom, from a fall maybe?

Anyway, I'm guessing these are cast aluminum and might be brittle. Should I try to straighten the bend or would that more than likely result in it breaking? I could have it welded if that does indeed occur.

I'll post pictures later, getting ready to head out. Thanks!

I had a wheel guard that was bent and it indeed broke off when I straightened it.

I beveled the crack and used metallic epoxy.

I'll look up the link and post it up here for you to look through.

If you are concerned about the arbor, put a dial indicator on it in several spots and check run-out.

I don't know what spec is, but you can post the model number /results and ask members to do the same.

I'll be back with that link.

 

[GirchyGirchy]

The arbor looks straight. I don't know what happened to it, because the cover's in perfect shape. It is already cracked in that spot however. Torqueman, please do post that link!

 

[torqueman2002]

The arbor looks straight. I don't know what happened to it, because the cover's in perfect shape. It is already cracked in that spot however. Torqueman, please do post that link!

Right, sorry - dinner bell rang.

"Craftsman Block Grinder resto - Update May 31, 2011"
Post #1 1/2 way down the page.

http://tinyurl.com/CM-0-75HP-397-19350-Berry

Good luck.
And we need pictures

 

[GirchyGirchy]

Pictures! I meant to say 1/3 hp - my other is a 1/4. Was in the ad for $50 but I got it for $40 because of the bend. Should have tried for $30, oh well. Spins fine and he said the light works. I'd like to find a 1/2 or larger for a trio, but this is good for now!

BTW, there's a big 3/4 horse Black & Decker on a stand in the Indianapolis CL. But it's missing both wheel guards and shields. I decided to pass.


_DSC2764 by GirchyGirchy, on Flickr


_DSC2761 by GirchyGirchy, on Flickr


_DSC2762 by GirchyGirchy, on Flickr

 

[softailgarage]

Hey kids, look what daddy brought home...


Complete with quelch tray


and light


and drill attachment


and a couple of surprises, like

Dual Rear Exhaust

and a pristine owners manual



I asked him how he decided the prices, his reply, " I've never haggled on a price before, just wanted to play around. I was planning on selling it for $150.00 anyway".....riiiight. Oh yeah, never had this happen before, I get to the guys house (after a 1hr. 15min drive), he's outside. Dude looks like a biker, I park in his driveway, walk up, start shootin the ****, checkin out his bike, etc. After about 10 minutes I say," so, lets check out the grinder", dude looks at me kinda funny and says, huh? "The Bench Grinder, you know, the one you have on Craigslist" He says, " uh, don't know what yer talkin 'bout, I ain't got nothin' on Craigslist". I'm thinking the guy is joking, but nope. I call up grinder dude, and say wtf? Gave me the wrong address, his house is across the street! So here I am talking to this guy and the whole time he's wondering who the **** I am and why did I pick his house

 

[drivesitfar]

Softtail: nice story with a good ending. glad you finally got that one back to your garage.

Girchy: i saw the shield was off of your grinder, but did you forget to post a picture of the shield or did you figure out a fix or decide not to use one?

good luck with both those awesome grinders guys

 

[Outlawmws]

Softail that's about the best go buy something story I've ever heard!

 

[Itinerant]

Apologies in advance for the long story, but I didn't set out to acquire this 1 HP that I unexpectedly ran across today and I think the story is pretty funny. I called a guy last night and talked to him about buying some card filing cabinets he had and that I wanted for parts and hardware storage. He was supposed to send me some pictures this morning but by 2:00 this afternoon I still hadn’t heard from him so I called him again and we set up a meeting at his shop at 4:00. I’d wanted to see pictures first to be sure it was worth the 35 mile drive but his verbal description convinced me. My buddy and I arrive and the seller isn’t there, I’m willing to cut him some slack because we’ve had heavy rain all day and I knew from calling him while enroute that he was on the way. We waited a while. How long you ask? Long enough to watch one of the local street walkers get picked up by a John, dropped back off on her corner and picked up again (which admittedly happened immediately, apparently business was good in the rain). Did I mention the shop wasn’t in the best neighborhood in town?

Anyway, the seller arrives and starts opening up to show us around and says, “you guys are here to look at welding equipment right?” Uh, no. Cabinets, remember? Long pause. "Ooooooh. I sold all of those to a guy this morning, thought he was you". My inner dialog is running along the lines of, “Really. You thought you sold them to me this morning but when I called at 2 and talked to you about cabinets we were good?” I’m not happy but I might as well look around since the seller says he’s liquidating the shop so we all go inside. The shop is as unorganized as the seller. There were two cars, an SUV and several motorcycles in various states of disassembly and tools of all sorts scattered all over the place. It really looked like the place had been bombed.

The grinder was one of the first things I saw but it was covered with so much stuff that while I recognized it as a block that was about it. Upon closer inspection I was surprised to see that it was a 1 HP and disappointed to see that both cover guards were off and it was missing the right side tool rest. My friend and I looked around for a while and the seller dug through random stuff, sometimes talking to us and sometimes talking to himself. At one point he walks up to my friend and says, “no matter what happens, I’m eating lunch today”. Again, inner dialog, “Dude, it’s 5:00. You can have dinner but lunch is right out. And by the way, you’re batshit crazy.” By now my friend is giving me the look that tells me he’s wondering if we’re going to make it out of this place.

Presently I asked about the grinder and was assured that all of the parts were somewhere in the shop and could be located without much effort. The three of us searched for quite awhile and I was about to give it up when the seller found the right side cover on the floor beneath a pile of stuff at the other end of the shop. Of course! Why didn’t I look there to begin with? I took it as is for $50 and since I work in the city I’ll have a chance to stop in from time to time over the next week or so to see if I can find the other cover and tool rest.

The good news: The motor is strong and everything spins smoothly, it takes better than 2:30 to spin down after shut-off. The light works and while the dip basin is rusty everything else is pretty clean. It’s going into the project queue and I’ll keep pestering the seller for the missing parts.

Thanks for reading. Now back to your regularly scheduled thread.

 

[organ]

Nice!

 

[WeAreNotAlone]

Re: Source needed for buying a Klixon F8A 4CR-20-728 start relay.

My replies are in Blue, below. And welcome to the forum.

Also, try: "Vintage Craftsman "Block Motor" bench grinder info -" Thread
http://tinyurl.com/CM-Block-motor-style-grinders
Let us know how you make out and post up some pics.

Torqueman2002,

From scanning thru the thread I get the impression you are "familiar" with the 397 block grinder series, right?

Are there any other sources for a start relay?

Any other "relay" that will work?

Seems to me something in the HVAC field would work, $49.95 for the relay seems to be on the high side... that said a relay that is "close" or even has the same specs from a HVAC source would be sort of pricy... then again maybe a commonly used start relay would work. Seem to me that with (from what I've read) parts being N/A thru SEARS someone would have found a relay that interchanges.

Upon hitting the power switch- Wheels do not spin up, Grinder makes a growling noise. That's a symptom of a Start-up winding not powering up.

Q: What happens if the start winding does NOT disengage? Would it overheat the start winding?

Ah, the answer: As I expected it overheats: :-(

(Gee I guess they never thought a set of contacts in a relay would "stick"- that said they don't want items lasting too long.)

received a piece of friendly and good advice on the OWWM Everything Electrical forum. In the event the relay or centrifugal switch contacts stick, a slow-blow fuse will OPEN, protecting the grinder/wiring.

Here's a pic or two of windings. With the naked eye (without a flash) looks like the windings have gotten hot to me.. (Hope I'm wrong)

(Can't upload file locally... too big. In pics /naked eye coating on start winding looks oxidized, burned looking.

BTW: Where's a good place to upload files to without creating a "account"?)

Oh, The start winding while looking like it has gotten hot appears to be working... I "wonder" if the windings could be sprayed with something to make it last a little longer before shorting out?

Related what did the factory spray on the windings? Lacquer?



PS: Appreciate the links! Please do expand on the "start relay" being order-able @ a lower cost /something else that would work. Hate to rig up a "push button" to manually emulate the start relay to get me thru the project I'm needing the grinder thru. :-(

 

[organ]

Use www.imgur.com to upload pictures. Are there any numbers on the starter relay? Maybe you can use them to source a solid-state replacement. Yes... I've read of people recoating windings with lacquer.

 

[torqueman2002]

Re: Source needed for buying a Klixon F8A 4CR-20-728 start relay.

My replies are in Blue.

Torqueman2002,

From scanning thru the thread I get the impression you are "familiar" with the 397 block grinder series, right?

Are there any other sources for a start relay?

Any other "relay" that will work? Sorry, but I do not know.

Seems to me something in the HVAC field would work, $49.95 for the relay seems to be on the high side... that said a relay that is "close" or even has the same specs from a HVAC source would be sort of pricy... then again maybe a commonly used start relay would work. Seem to me that with (from what I've read) parts being N/A thru SEARS someone would have found a relay that interchanges.
[/B]Sorry, but I do not know.

Q: What happens if the start winding does NOT disengage? Would it overheat the start winding?

Ah, the answer: As I expected it overheats: :-(

(Gee I guess they never thought a set of contacts in a relay would "stick"- that said they don't want items lasting too long.)

Here's a pic or two of windings. With the naked eye (without a flash) looks like the windings have gotten hot to me.. (Hope I'm wrong)

(Can't upload file locally... too big. In pics /naked eye coating on start winding looks oxidized, burned looking.

BTW: Where's a good place to upload files to without creating a "account"?)[/B]Sorry, but I do not know.

Oh, The start winding while looking like it has gotten hot appears to be working... I "wonder" if the windings could be sprayed with something to make it last a little longer before shorting out?
[/B]A certified motor re-builder will perform a MEG-OHM test on the stator windings. This will find a fault where a test with a Ohm meter will give it a pass.
Related what did the factory spray on the windings? Lacquer?
I do not know. Probably.

PS: Appreciate the links! Please do expand on the "start relay" being order-able @ a lower cost /something else that would work. I do not know.Hate to rig up a "push button" to manually emulate the start relay to get me thru the project I'm needing the grinder thru. :-(

Sorry that I can not answer all your questions.

Best of luck, keep us upto date on your projects.

 

[torqueman2002]

... Thanks for reading. ...

Nice score!

 

[torqueman2002]

Hey kids, look what daddy brought home...

That's a great score and story!

Question & favor. Do you have a way to scan the manual [pdf], and would you upload it on: http://www.vintagemachinery.org/mfgindex/pubs.aspx ?

Thanks.

 

[drivesitfar]

wearenotalone: best of luck with the grinder fix. if you are trying to post pictures here's what i do. i take pictures with my cell phone. then i email them to my email so i can pull up the email on my email via Outlook and save them to my computer. then there is a little paperclip above where i'm writing this on the post and i load up to 9 pictures.

now if you don't have a computer at home online maybe borrow one or maybe somebody else can give you the method they use to post pictures from a cell phone.

if i want to post larger pictures i use www.photobucket.com which is a free sited to download your pictures to and then i pull over the link they provide and include them in the main body of the post.

It: geez the stories for getting these blocks just keeps getting better. Nice neighborhood to hang your hat for a couple hours to remind you to keep working hard so you don't have to live there full time. would be eventful though.

going back for spare parts might not be wise. Brent has a drawer full that he might sell if he still has them an ask and maybe others will have some. or maybe we'll all say no and have you go back and get some for the new story.

good for you for sticking around.

TM: i was wondering if the ring test was a sure fire test. i saw you just found out on another forum that certain types of grinding stones don't ring. can you post over here when you have a minute. i do have a couple sitting on a bench that didn't ring, but I didn't destroy them yet. i also just picked up an 8 inch one at a garage sale for $1 for one of my grinders that even with my finger in the hole and hitting with a wrench since nothing else was handy and it rang like a bell.

thanks for all your information and help

 

[GirchyGirchy]

Girchy: i saw the shield was off of your grinder, but did you forget to post a picture of the shield or did you figure out a fix or decide not to use one?

The cover is fine, I'd just removed it to look inside. The wheel guard (or housing) around the wheel itself is what is damaged - see my pictures where it's bent right above where the tool rest should be.

 

[cagullett1]

For all of y'all that have sold grinders on ebay, which courier have you found to be the most reasonably priced? Torqueman has gone above and beyond in helping me locate a couple grinders, and I'm wanting to make it as easy as possibly on him (and as cheap as possible for me) to get them to Texas. Should the 1/2HP and 1/3HP grinders be shipped together, or separate?

 

[softailgarage]

That's a great score and story!

Question & favor. Do you have a way to scan the manual [pdf], and would you upload it on: http://www.vintagemachinery.org/mfgindex/pubs.aspx ?

Thanks.

You read my mind, I do and I will. I've got about 4 or 5 other manuals I've been meaning to upload. Try to get it tonight.