Questions for plumbers re: shutoff valves

[Scott H in Wheaton]

I'm remodeling a bathroom.
The double vanity was removed, 4 under-sink shutoff valves were cleanly cut off the copper pipes with a tubing cutter so the vanity could be pulled.
A plumber sweat-soldered caps so the water in the house could be turned on during the renovation.

I'm ready to re-install the vanity.
Per the plumber's recommendation I have 4 new compression fitting shutoff valves to install.

The question:
do I cut the caps off with a tubing cutter
OR
or do I melt out the solder, clean up the pipes and then install the compression fittings?

 

[The Cobbler]

if the pipes are long enough, cut off the caps . if you want to take the caps off, put a bit of solder flux on the solder, heat the solder & remove cap. a bit more flux and a rag to wipe of the heated solder. I find flux makes the solder flow a bit easier .be sure to get a smooth surface for the compression fittings

 

[vekster]

If you have enough length on the pipes just cut them. If there short and the length isn't there then sweat the caps off.


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[G_P]

Personally, I would sweat the caps off, clean up the end of the pipe, and then sweat on new valves.

 

[The Cobbler]

Personally, I would sweat the caps off, clean up the end of the pipe, and then sweat on new valves.

me too. but I was answering the question .lol

 

[Scott H in Wheaton]

Personally, I would sweat the caps off, clean up the end of the pipe, and then sweat on new valves.

Yeah but its been years since I did any of that and I only did it a few times. I don't want to experiment on this project by learning again. And I already have the new valves.

 

[G_P]

In that case Cut the pipe caps off if there is enough pipe sticking out. If not unsweat the caps and use some sandpaper to smooth out the solder residue on the pipe and then install the compression valves.

Jobs like this are where Sharkbite caps come in real handy. You can jam them on the end of the pipe to enable you to turn the water back on to the house but then you can just pop them off again when its time to reinstall the vanity and shutoffs.

 

[mobiledynamics]

GOOD Quality compression valves is what I would use. I like Dahl

Only plumbers who care about job security would use a sweat valve for this exposed application.

 

[tcianci]

GOOD Quality compression valves is what I would use. I like Dahl

Only plumbers who care about job security would use a sweat valve for this exposed application.

What in the world is that supposed to mean /\ If you're at all familiar with plumbing components, you would know that there are any number of sweat on valves designed for exposed installation. Also if you read the OP, you would have seen that the stops (that's the correct term for the valves he is referring to) are inside of a vanity, where a simple rough brass stop is the valve of choice for this application.

All in all, the plumber did well to install the sweat caps, especially if he left enough material for the homeowner to cut them off to use the compression stops.

 

[mobiledynamics]

Doesn't matter if it's brass or chromed.

What happens should he need to replace the valve for any reason.
With a puller, you can remove the ferrule and pop a new valve on.
Without shortening the copper again.

No torch should be needed or required.

 

[kaffine]

Doesn't matter if it's brass or chromed.

What happens should he need to replace the valve for any reason.
With a puller, you can remove the ferrule and pop a new valve on.
Without shortening the copper again.

No torch should be needed or required.

I am not a pro plumber but I would not use compression fittings. Sweating a stop on is not that difficult. If I need to replace it not a problem heat it back up no need to shorten the pipe.

I can't say as I have ever seen a compression fitting I was able to pull off and replace without shortening the pipe anyways. Someone will over tighten it at some point and collapse the pipe.

I would say the more important thing rather than if it is sweat of compression is it a 1/4 turn valve or not.

 

[rslaback]

Not to ask a stupid question, but why weren't the compression valves put on instead of the caps?

 

[Dustball]

Not to ask a stupid question, but why weren't the compression valves put on instead of the caps?

Smaller hole in the sheetrock when putting it on.

 

[G_P]

Not to ask a stupid question, but why weren't the compression valves put on instead of the caps?

So that the holes in the back of the vanity for the pipes to pass through can be kept as small as possible.

 

[rslaback]

So that the holes in the back of the vanity for the pipes to pass through can be kept as small as possible.

You know you can take the valves back off right? You'd be left with the nuts and sleeves so the hole would be a little bit bigger but not that much. It can't be the shutting off of the water again since that needs to be done anyway.

Whenever I install pipes through a cabinet I always use a two piece trim escutcheon. That type of collar would easily cover the slightly larger hole from the nuts.

 

[er3456df]

Why am I the only one who solders male threads onto the pipe, and uses a screw-on valve?

There must be a reason... I never see this in any house I've worked on, but any time I replace a valve I do it this way.

 

[Scott r c]

Why am I the only one who solders male threads onto the pipe, and uses a screw-on valve?

There must be a reason... I never see this in any house I've worked on, but any time I replace a valve I do it this way.

maybe you like extra work? Or another potential leak point? Ha ha I would only solder a male adapter on if I got to the job and was out of compression stops.

 

[Hornman]

To answer the original question, if you are going to use compression fittings on your valve, cut the solder caps off with your tubing cutter. BECAUSE, if you sweat the caps off, you will have to sand ALL the solder off to get the ferrel on the tube. Been there, done that.

 

[Big Bad Dad]

Personally, I would sweat the caps off, clean up the end of the pipe, and then sweat on new valves.

THIS If you going to use a torch anyway.

 

[HeelSpur]

Why am I the only one who solders male threads onto the pipe, and uses a screw-on valve?

There must be a reason... I never see this in any house I've worked on, but any time I replace a valve I do it this way.

You're not alone by no means.

 

[brewchief]

Doesn't matter if it's brass or chromed.

What happens should he need to replace the valve for any reason.
With a puller, you can remove the ferrule and pop a new valve on.
Without shortening the copper again.

No torch should be needed or required.

More often then not the leaks at stops I see are at the compression fitting, this will often cause it to be a corroded mess that you will spend far more time cleaning up hoping it won't leak then unsweating and replacing a sweat style valve.

If you use compression stops put a tiny dab of pipe dope on the threads during assembly, it will lubricate the threads and allow you to get it tight enough that it won't leak, the chrome valves are especially bad for this. Yes it goes against what has been taught for years about needing no sealant on a compression fitting but it works.

 

[mygarageone]

More often then not the leaks at stops I see are at the compression fitting, this will often cause it to be a corroded mess that you will spend far more time cleaning up hoping it won't leak then unsweating and replacing a sweat style valve.

If you use compression stops put a tiny dab of pipe dope on the threads during assembly, it will lubricate the threads and allow you to get it tight enough that it won't leak, the chrome valves are especially bad for this. Yes it goes against what has been taught for years about needing no sealant on a compression fitting but it works.

I never used to put dope on the threads either but one day one of the young guys did , I laughed at him but when he had no trouble tightening the nut and no squeal . I was a believer . Doesn't stop leak but sure makes it easier ti tighten nuts.
In all my 40 yrs of trimming out jobs , I have never used the solider or threaded valve , always compression. The reason is it's a ***** soldiering in a cabinet. Or under a sink .

 

[Majordisorder]

Still another way that is often specced out on commercial work is a fm drop ear 90 in the wall, then a chrome ******, then a fm angle stop. When finished off with chrome escutcheon and supply tubes, it's a thing of beauty. But what plumber today even consults a manufacturers rough inn book? All you see is compression valves and flexible overlength supply tubes.

 

[KenS]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned using plastic compression rings rather than the brass ones that often come with valves. The brass will dig in and distort the copper pipe, especially if the installer reefs down on them-- making them one-shot. If the stub is close to the wall, the next guy will have a big headache when he has to cut the stub out behind the compression ring and the remaining stub is left flush with the wall. Plastic rings will often slip off when the valve is removed or, in a worst-case scenario, can be cut off with a utility knife, usually leaving the pipe undamaged.

I'm like er3456df when it comes to the fittings in my house-- solder on a male fitting and all subsequent valve replacements are a breeze. On a commercial job I understand why compression fittings are the less-expensive alternative.

 

[Gerald O]

Still another way that is often specced out on commercial work is a fm drop ear 90 in the wall, then a chrome ******, then a fm angle stop. When finished off with chrome escutcheon and supply tubes, it's a thing of beauty. But what plumber today even consults a manufacturers rough inn book? All you see is compression valves and flexible overlength supply tubes.

Something like this, eh?

Garage loft bathroom...

 

[ovilla]

Compression fittings are just so much easier to install for the DIY folks. Plus if/when the valve goes bad you most likely can just swap it out yourself - without having to call a plumber.

 

[metal1313]

i ususally use chrome *******, and heavily secured male 90's in the wall and the appropriate valve. i have not found truly decent 1/4 turn valves in a long time.

that being said already, i work in a lot of older homes were the pipe is all threaded galvanized and sometimes all brass..with no functioning valve anywhere. i have had to call the water co. to have water shut off at the street so i can install at least a main shut off

 

[Scott H in Wheaton]

Not to ask a stupid question, but why weren't the compression valves put on instead of the caps?

The four supply lines come up through the bottom of the vanity cabinet.
The vanity was being removed to tile the floor.
The old valves were pretty much shot...corroded, didn't turn off well.
They were old enough an d corroded enough the nuts were rounding off instead of coming apart.

The reason for leaving the valves (stops) off until after the tile was done was because I would have had to enlarge the 1" holes to 3"-4" or more in order to set the vanity down over the valves.

Thanks for all the replies!
Bathroom is nearly done. Tiled, painted, new toilet, new towel bars and etc. vanity is back in place and faucets installed. Last thing to do is install these darn valves /stops next weekend when I get back out to the place.

 

[mobiledynamics]

For the posters recommend FIP ....fittings.
YES, I have done that. I LOVE the look a high quality Kohler chrome valve looks.

I have search high and low, and NOBODY makes a good looking FIP 1/4 Ball Valve.

Sweat or Compression is not that compression is easier for a DIY'er.
IMO, no torch should be needed, used or required unless it's speced.
If done right, a compression unit will not leak.
It's also servicable without shortening the stub.

I know someone mentioned you can torch a fitting on and replace.
So let's say you have 4" of pipe coming out of the wall.
You can put enough enough heat to remove the valve and get clean copper , without overheating the pipe nor possibly putting too much heat to possibly overheat the next closest joint downstream. Ontop, without NO damage to any finished surface ?

I RO most of my stuff so high these days, and close to the trap, that you can barely see it.

However, IF it's something really exposed, and in my world *aesthetics* do count, I might RO it for a ******/FIP fitting.

 

[theoldwizard1]

As many have said, cut off the caps if there is plenty of exposed pipe, otherwise unsolder.

The reason they gave you compression fittings is that they are the easiest to install, but they do require the outside of the pipe to by very clean/smooth ! Use emery cloth. Make certain the fitting is seated all the way on to the pipe before tightening. Some actually use teflon tape on the thread as insurance.

 

[er3456df]

You can put enough enough heat to remove the valve and get clean copper , without overheating the pipe nor possibly putting too much heat to possibly overheat the next closest joint downstream. Ontop, without NO damage to any finished surface ?

All day long, brother. Plain old propane, and a heat shield. If there's room to cut, there's room for a torch. If there isn't room to cut, then you're gonna be taking out drywall anyway.

I use a file on any solder lumps left over, and installation is reverse of removal.

This is what I'm talking about, BTW