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Large wire splicing, and SER vs conduit for subpanel

snorky18

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I'm working on determining the best way to run wire to a subpanel in my garage.

Naturally, my main panel and service entrance are on the opposite end of the house from the garage. Total wire length will be right at 60', run along the ceiling of my basement.

The path for the wire will be from the main panel in my mechanical room, up to the ceiling (exposed joists 10' off the floor), then along the ceiling, through one block wall into the ceiling over my finished basement area (still 10' off the floor, but I have to contend with the drop ceiling that's about 8' off the floor), through another block wall into the garage, then immediately turn 90 degrees downward into the garage subpanel.

There's really only two places this run NEEDS to be in conduit for protection from damage. The first few feet above the floor in my mechanical room, and the drop into the garage. Both of those areas are located on exposed concrete block walls.

The biggest electrical use I should ever see at one time would be 25 amp 240V compressor kicking on the same time as a 200amp buzz box is running (50 amps peak?). I'd really like to have at least ~80 amps available out there.

1/0-1/0-1/0-2 SER would get me 100 Amps and runs ~2/ft locally
2-2-2-4 SER would get me 75 amps and runs ~$1.50/ft locally

I was initially thinking I would run 1.5" conduit and 2-2-2-4 MHF, but that's a lot of conduit, and a lot of objects to dodge (two different HVAC linesets, tons of existing wiring, some plumbing, and probably some more stuff over that drop ceiling I haven't even noticed yet.)

What I think would be easiest, and most cost effective, would be to run SER from the main panel all the way along the ceiling of the basement to the backside of the garage wall, where it would run into a junction box.

From the back junction of the box would be a short conduit run, through the block wall, turn 90 degrees down with a LB, and drop straight into the subpanel. That would be maybe 7 or 8 feet of wire, so I'd be happy to use copper for that short a length so it would be easy to work with in the panel.

The SER would be a lot cheaper than conduit+wire, and a million times easier to route around all the obstacles. I'd still have both drops from the ceiling to the panels in conduit for protection from damage.

So two questions:
1) Any problems with this approach?
2) How would I go about splicing the SER to the THHN in the junction box? I'm thinking I'd have to have a massive junction box for that SER coming in, and some sort of connectors rated for AL and CU use (Ilsco Cleartap? polaris connectors? Split bolt with spacer?)
 
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theoldwizard1

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The SER would be a lot cheaper than conduit+wire, and a million times easier to route around all the obstacles. I'd still have both drops from the ceiling to the panels in conduit for protection from damage.
Why not just do a continuous run of 2-2-2-4 SER ?

Feed it into the JB and clamp it. Then out through the wall, in conduit, into the LB and down the conduit into the panel. You may have to go to a larger conduit so that the percentage fill is not exceeded.
 
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snorky18

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Minimum conduit size for 2-2-2-4 SER would be 1.5".

I don't think I'll be able to make the minimum bend radius with a 1" (0.956") cable inside a 1.5" LB.

And if I use a 90 deg. elbow instead of an LB, I'd have to cut a vertical slot for it in my block wall, rather than just a 1.5" diameter hole.
 

Mustang51js

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What's the heights on the wire in the garage,the wire in the boiler room I wouldn't worry about putting in pipe, the only wire I would do anything about is in the garage and that's only if it's low enough for a car to hit it. If the wire comes out up high then down to the panel like it seems it is then you could either sleeve a peice of pvc pipe over it or just put a piece of plywood on the wall and strap the wire to it. No need to overthink this,it takes a lot to damage the wire. All I would worry about is fire stop where the wire enters the garage. I've ran plenty of wires in the top corner of garages and seen it plenty of times and never had to install it in pipe to pass inspection. The only time inspectors would make you put it in pipe is if it's low enough to get hit by a car.
 

pattenp

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The amps at those sizes are correct for 60C, but SER can be used at 75C if not buried in insulation. So 1-1-1-3 is 100A @ 75C and 2-2-2-4 is 90A @ 75C.

.............

1/0-1/0-1/0-2 SER would get me 100 Amps and runs ~2/ft locally
2-2-2-4 SER would get me 75 amps and runs ~$1.50/ft locally
 

theoldwizard1

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Minimum conduit size for 2-2-2-4 SER would be 1.5".

I don't think I'll be able to make the minimum bend radius with a 1" (0.956") cable inside a 1.5" LB.

And if I use a 90 deg. elbow instead of an LB, I'd have to cut a vertical slot for it in my block wall, rather than just a 1.5" diameter hole.

I would notch the wall and use a sweep. Rent a small demolition hammer. You will be done in no time. The block I have dealt with was soft enough that a hammer and a cold chisel would get the job done in probably under an hour. Some extra caulk and paint and it will look fine.
 

bjcouche

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If you want to use an LB but are concerned with the bend radius of the SER cable in a 1.5" LB, then use a 2" LB. You can either use 2" conduit or 1.5" conduit and a step up / down, size fitting to use the 2" LB. Me, I'd just use the 2" conduit and 2" LB.
Brian
 
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OP
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snorky18

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We are under NEC 2008. My understanding is that for NEC 2011 you can use 75 deg column for SER if it's not in insulation. But in NEC 2008 I'm stuck with the 60 degree column. Which is fine - I'd rather be conservative, and the difference in cost for wire size is negligible.

I've about decided to run 1/0 SER to the back of the garage wall to a large junction box, then use polaris connectors to splice to #2 copper thhn that will run in 1.5 EMT to the panel.

12x12x6 is the size junction box I'm looking at using.

What are the pros/cons of PVC vs metal junction boxes (nema 1)?
 

sublimate

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Sounds similar to what I have. XHHW wire in conduit running under my slab to a big junction box where it connects to SER cable for the run to the panel. Has both 2/0 and 1/0 for the house and garage.
 

JohnX14

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OP is talking about a subpanel in a dwelling. Table 310.15(B)(7) rates #2 AL at 100 amps for this application. (NEC 2011) You don't apply Table 310.15(B)(16) I don't have a copy of the '08 NEC with me. I am in MA and we are on the 2014 NEC.
 

pattenp

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This is incorrect. 310.15(B)(7) applies to a service/feed that provides the entire load to a dwelling. For a feeder to a sub-panel, which does not provide the entire load to the dwelling, you use 310.15(B)(16), which #2 Al is 90 amps.

OP is talking about a subpanel in a dwelling. Table 310.15(B)(7) rates #2 AL at 100 amps for this application. (NEC 2011) You don't apply Table 310.15(B)(16) I don't have a copy of the '08 NEC with me. I am in MA and we are on the 2014 NEC.
 

JohnX14

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This is incorrect. 310.15(B)(7) applies to a service/feed that provides the entire load to a dwelling. For a feeder to a sub-panel, which does not provide the entire load to the dwelling, you use 310.15(B)(16), which #2 Al is 90 amps.

Good point, my bad.

What article allows for using the 75 degree rating when the cable is not installed in thermal insulation? (I've read it in the past and can't find it)
 

pattenp

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If the cable is NM you have to use 60 degrees. SE cable can be used at 75 degrees if not within insulation 338.10(B)(4). There is an exclusion from 334.80 in 338.10(B)(4).
 
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