Overkill

[Mud]

I know good tools, yep they are great to work with and I have plenty enough, with many favourites both new and old. I strongly believe that a sign of a good tool is how they cope with wear and tear after years of use. Tools are my bread and butter. What is it with the **** found in many of the big chain stores, I don't believe they are up to the standards of old, but only time will tell I guess. What do you think, why are so many factories pumping out ****?

 

[zkling]

Profit margin. Customers want things to be cheap, factories want to make a profit, good items require resources to produce. We are very much a disposable society. Buy it when you need it then toss it. Vs the old days seemed to be more of a buy it as an investment, use it many a times.

 

[Mud]

Yes Zkling, profits have become obsessive and at the same time the skills utilised to produce quality tools have been eroded or lost. Time and knowledge produces quality. In that regard, when the people who produce the tools no longer understand or know the use of what they are producing, what hope have we?

 

[Engine]

Many people rarely use tools... they buy most things to use until they wear out, then throw them out. Umm, that would be millions of people, IMHO. They don't intend to fix or have anything repaired. Hell, some people I know never even maintain the things they buy. The last thing they would ever be concerned about is the quality of tools. Worry-free they are. Yet, there are still the exceptions, such as we are, who do see the value.

 

[jim1987]

They way I look at it is this:

Say I need to buy a 3/8 ratchet, 5/8 spark plug socket and maybe a 3" extention, and a Philips screw driver to do a tune up on my 318. Shop time is about $50/hour. Well say the tune up is an hours labor charge. And let's say the tools cost me $50 at autozone. So I do it myself once, I broke even. Every tune up after that is $50 in my pocket. Even if the tools only last 5 tune ups, I'm $200 ahead. ($250-$50 for another set of tools for this small job)(and that's saying the warranty was denied or not used. If its used and accepted, I have brand new tools again) So in this situation, why buy the best their is, or worry about over kill?

 

[SASORacing]

Then there is the group that obsessive and compulsive, they are addicted to shopping and refining their tool collection. They could be a veteran master technician or a shade tree girl diy wrencher.

The point is we all buy tools for reasons we have. Tools to me are at times like jewlery is to my girlfriend! I can appreciate the shine and bling of killer engineering.

 

[Bogey won]

I buy because i might needem, and i love having a spare, 38 ratchets and just found a 5 gal bucket full of ratchets and extensions, 50 vice grips all sizes, and 50 crescent wrenches all sizes, extensions enuff to fill up at 3 gal individual buckets. All free, came outta pd auction cars over the years and just now pulling that **** out.

One of the few future planning things i do that pleases me, and helps me in my time of need.

 

[PKile]

I can tell you the biggest reason...people want cheap and they don't care if it lasts. The point was driven home to me last Christmas when I was in the checkout line in Target. The guy ahead of me was bragging to the clerk about what a bargain the skillet was that he just rang up. The guy went on to say that so what if I've had to buy a new one every year or so when they wear out, it's still a great buy. It was all I could do to keep from yelling in his ear about false economy. Companies know they can sell all the crappy tools they can produce, because the slack jawed multitudes will buy them.

 

[nicksnothereman]

A lot of the tools you think are **** are not actually crappy. I don't know what you have in australia though. I'd figure you'd get the direct brand taiwanese and japanese stuff at retailers (such as kabo wrenches and koken)...that stuff is the farthest from **** you can possibly get. We get the magical mystery taiwanese tools (we usually know where the chinese stuff comes from because it's typically a chinese apex factory whereas the taiwanese stuff is usually rebranded) which are typically good nowadays.

I wouldn't consider it truck tier but it ain't going to fall apart in your hands either. Probably why the trucks are selling the same damn import stuff under their own labels. Who sells that taiwanese offset composite wrench? You know it's going to happen eventually, probably matco.

 

[nochina1966]

I think we've become more and more a 'disposable' society over the years. He'll, I can remember repairing counter-top microwave ovens 20 years ago ! Now you just toss them and buy new for $50. Tools on the other hand are somewhat different. People who use tools everyday want the best quality for the price, dependable so they are not constantly running out to find replacements. Others just love old quality made tools and will collect them as a hobby or as an infatuation, just like others may have a shoe or a doll collection. Either way, it's all good with me, cause I'm a little of both !

 

[n8n]

Was having this discussion recently... someone asked me why most of my tools were slowly being converted to SK, Snap-On, Williams, etc. when honestly I rarely use them (unless I'm covering for someone at my friend's shop) and "you won't be using them in 50-75 years anyway."

I pointed out to that person that the scroll saw that I'd used to cut in a few electrical boxes into his kitchen cabinets was originally purchased by my great-grandfather...

there's really two different sides to this and both have valid points of view. I prefer to lean towards the side of quality and durability whenever I can however...

 

[bczygan]

The average person, Joe homeowner, when he buys a tool, has no idea what a quality tool is. Some barely know the names of the tools they need. We are not the tool using society that we used to be. We are a keyboard and tablet using society.

So when he goes to buy a tool, he ends up buying a "Tool Shaped Object", or TSO, for short. This is an object that has the same shape, color and similar materials as a real tool, but none of the real capabilities.

The hope is that, as a society, we can eventually eliminate completely the need for tools. We will sit in our cubicles and shuffle electrons for work. When we go home, all our possessions will be throwaway. New ones will come from ordering on the computer screen, delivered to our door. Eventually the failing product will even order it's own replacement, as a last gasp, just before it dies. Billing will be automatic.

Eventually the very word "Tool" will fall into disuse and become archaic and then dropped from the language entirely.

It will be a brave new world.

Bill

 

[sberry]

New cheap stuff works so good that in most cases the extra isn't worth it. Modern mfg has just gotten so much better over the years as cost have went down. A set of China wrenches from Walmart could last a lifetime. I have a few Grant wrenches still in service. Most have been lost but never broke or wore out.
If I had to start over wouldn't buy the best today, would generally look for one unbranded level above the cheapest or clones of name brand except for some specialty or super severe service pieces. A Vise Grip being one and some pliers mainly, the rest of it all works pretty good.

 

[sberry]

Replacement is not a bad thing. Lots of things I like the newer better, new features etc and have waited too long in many cases. As for repairs, it just cost too much. use it a while at low cost and get another one you may like even better.
No one here wants to work for net 50 cents an hour and no one wants to pay a journeyman tech 85 an hour to work on a toaster that cost 20 to replace and is 5 or 10 years old.

 

[Nanashi]

Replacement is not a bad thing. Lots of things I like the newer better, new features etc and have waited too long in many cases. As for repairs, it just cost too much. use it a while at low cost and get another one you may like even better.
No one here wants to work for net 50 cents an hour and no one wants to pay a journeyman tech 85 an hour to work on a toaster that cost 20 to replace and is 5 or 10 years old.

Do you want someone else to work for 50 cents an hour? Thats probably what they make if not less in China where they're making those garbage tools you just claimed are so great. Do you work professionally with tools? I just cant see a professional claiming that cheap junk is as good as quality tools.

 

[bcradio]

Do you want someone else to work for 50 cents an hour? Thats probably what they make if not less in China where they're making those garbage tools you just claimed are so great. Do you work professionally with tools? I just cant see a professional claiming that cheap junk is as good as quality tools.

If they want to work for 50 cents an hour then fine by me.

 

[dragonballz]

Why would I buy a tool that costs $100 if I'm going to use it 1-2 times in my lifetime, when I could buy a cheap version of that tool for $20? Assuming they both do the same work for that 1-2 times it is used.

 

[Askme42]

They way I look at it is this:

Say I need to buy a 3/8 ratchet, 5/8 spark plug socket and maybe a 3" extention, and a Philips screw driver to do a tune up on my 318. Shop time is about $50/hour. Well say the tune up is an hours labor charge. And let's say the tools cost me $50 at autozone. So I do it myself once, I broke even. Every tune up after that is $50 in my pocket. Even if the tools only last 5 tune ups, I'm $200 ahead. ($250-$50 for another set of tools for this small job)(and that's saying the warranty was denied or not used. If its used and accepted, I have brand new tools again) So in this situation, why buy the best their is, or worry about over kill?

Where are you that shop time is $50 an hour? I'd guess a simple tune up would cost most people $200+ to have done.

 

[nieuport17]

maybe its just my area, but I never encountered a store that sells all quality stuff.
Theres always that range of price vs quality.
Maybe during the stone age, there are different quality of wheels : )

 

[jim1987]

Where are you that shop time is $50 an hour? I'd guess a simple tune up would cost most people $200+ to have done.

A very good independent shop that only has one mechanic. He's been there at least 15 years. That's just what they charge. Ya, I could see in a larger city and anything fwd being expensive at a shop. But just for numbers, my example works. :thumbs up:

 

[pi_guy]

Tool quality matters, it reflects in your professionalism.
I guess if you just work on junk it does not matter. But some of us get to experience the results of finishing a job that was done with the wrong tools.
Somebody rounds off the head of an non accessible fastener or miss threads a spark plug or kills the threads of a low torque nutcert. Or my favorite is killing a Philips head screw in a computer because your tool is worn out or you use the wrong one. Very similar to using steel wrenches on aluminum plumbing fitting.
Or on the safety side how many people have had a ratchet let go and you smash and gash your fingers.
I work on one of a kind items, so extra care must be taken. Can not just go to Wallmart or Autozone and get a new one.
There is not much I can not fix, but the time lost with a broken or miss threaded screw can cost missing a race or a qualifying session.
It is a known fact that when a mechanic screws up the customer gets blamed and gets to foot the bill for the broken screw and the time to fix it.
The quality of your tools reflect your ability and the professionalism you put into your trade.

 

[dragonballz]

it is a known fact that when a mechanic screws up the customer gets blamed and gets to foot the bill for the broken screw and the time to fix it.

lolz lmao rofl haha hehe


Tehe

 

[sberry]

Do you want someone else to work for 50 cents an hour? Thats probably what they make if not less in China where they're making those garbage tools you just claimed are so great. Do you work professionally with tools? I just cant see a professional claiming that cheap junk is as good as quality tools

Most of the cheap junk is quality,,, yes they make better in a lot of cases but the quality level has rose significantly, with cheaper labor it has also been easier to make it better and that margin has got super competitive.
Yes, there might be the occasion or one may be able to prove that a snap wrench is slightly better but it might not make much difference if it is, I am not talking about using a worn tip or faulty tool but a set of HF pro combo wrenches gives a lot of service for the dollar,, pro, am, hobby, doesn't make much difference.
I would feel a lot different about paying 50 cents an hour if the wrench cost 50$, when its less than 2 retail on the world market I don't.

 

[n8n]

Tool quality matters, it reflects in your professionalism.
I guess if you just work on junk it does not matter. But some of us get to experience the results of finishing a job that was done with the wrong tools.

IME if you work on "junk" or at least old rusty stuff, using quality tools becomes that much more important. If you only work on cars that are three years old or less than you could use pretty much any wrenches and sockets and won't notice the different. If you work on 50+ year old stuff where everything fights you, using quality six point tools is a must...

 

[nochina1966]

Most of the cheap junk is quality,,, yes they make better in a lot of cases but the quality level has rose significantly, with cheaper labor it has also been easier to make it better and that margin has got super competitive.

Yes, there might be the occasion or one may be able to prove that a snap wrench is slightly better but it might not make much difference if it is, I am not talking about using a worn tip or faulty tool but a set of HF pro combo wrenches gives a lot of service for the dollar,, pro, am, hobby, doesn't make much difference.

I would feel a lot different about paying 50 cents an hour if the wrench cost 50$, when its less than 2 retail on the world market I don't.

I guess that's why they call it ' cheap junk ' because it's cheap, and it's junk. Agreed that there's a very large market for it among hobbyists and week-end warriors who only use them once in a while, but I don't subscribe that many professionals care for them. There's a good reason they buy higher quality priced tools, and it's because of the quality, and the tasks they use them for, but your point is well made. Like most other knock-offs, they steal our product details and go back and try to duplicate it and take advantage of those poor bastards working dirt cheap.Im not naive though to not realize there's a lot of US corporate greed behind it.

 

[bczygan]

I've been reading all of these cheap tools vs expensive tools threads here on GJ.

And I remember my early experiences with bicycles as a child.

Combining a cheaply made bicycle, with a minimum of cheaply made tools, and an unskilled kid, made for immense frustration.

Later, I bought a high end bike, with beautifully designed and engineered components. Using quality tools, along with much better capabilities on my part, made the work a real joy.

There's nothing like taking the proper, well designed and well made tool, and using it to adjust a part that will properly adjust. It's almost like having free rein with the mind and body of a beautiful and willing woman. It's seductive. It's a kind of nirvana.

On the other hand, there is also pleasure just bashing a rusty mess with a big hammer.

Bill

 

[n8n]

I've been reading all of these cheap tools vs expensive tools threads here on GJ.

And I remember my early experiences with bicycles as a child.

Combining a cheaply made bicycle, with a minimum of cheaply made tools, and an unskilled kid, made for immense frustration.

Later, I bought a high end bike, with beautifully designed and engineered components. Using quality tools, along with much better capabilities on my part, made the work a real joy.

There's nothing like taking the proper, well designed and well made tool, and using it to adjust a part that will properly adjust. It's almost like having free rein with the mind and body of a beautiful and willing woman. It's seductive. It's a kind of nirvana.

On the other hand, there is also pleasure just bashing a rusty mess with a big hammer.

Bill

Unfortunately the only time I ever work on something that will adjust/disassemble properly seems to be when I'm working on something that I've had apart before

I do understand the bicycle thing; I actually have an 80's vintage Trek touring frame that I completely stripped down to the frame and rebuilt with modern wheels and drivetrain a few years ago. It's (now) a joy to work on.

The bashing with a hammer thing describes most of my automotive escapades...

 

[nochina1966]

Ha Ha ! LOL ! I'm going to bash something right now !

 

[sberry]

I will agree that some fine wrenches with special designs work better on damaged fasteners and on occasion you can find a poor fitting end wrench but its becoming less common. I have a handful of snaps I got a long time ago, there have been times they have been a day saver but a few of them in small sizes was sufficient. all the Sears was fine for the other 99.9 and there are times I look for unique ones among them for special occasions.
But,, Walmart power shops, not just for the cheapest but best at the price point. hey may pay 50 cents more on the dock in China for a socket set they sell for 25$ but they are good enough they don't need to be a warranty return center.
Even HF changes out models and sources for better ones. Cheap sockets have got a lot better. At one time there was super cheap stamped stuff, you rarely see it anymore. Adjustable wrenches at flea mkts are an example. 30 years ago you could find a **** 12 inch wrench for 3$ from India and a good one was 30. Now a premium one is at least that but you can buy a good unlabeled one for 5, the vendors are not even carrying the cheap anymore when the sales price is so marginally close.

 

[crewchief888]

what sberry mentioned is true,

a lot tool brands that are considered "cheap" really arent.

the price is tolerable as is the quality.

are they SO quality?
probably not
are they SO price?
sure as hell not...

for a lot of tools and eqiupment for home use, i wont pay truck brand prices for a tool that will see very little use.

some tools i dont hesitate to get from SO, others it doesnt bother me at all to get them from HF or a big box store


it's always up to the buyer to decide whats best for them

 

[nochina1966]

what sberry mentioned is true,



a lot tool brands that are considered "cheap" really arent.



the price is tolerable as is the quality.



are they SO quality?

probably not

are they SO price?

sure as hell not...



for a lot of tools and eqiupment for home use, i wont pay truck brand prices for a tool that will see very little use.



some tools i dont hesitate to get from SO, others it doesnt bother me at all to get them from HF or a big box store





it's always up to the buyer to decide whats best for them

Good point, and well received.

 

[gsingh]

Where are you that shop time is $50 an hour? I'd guess a simple tune up would cost most people $200+ to have done.

At my old shop in Washington D.C the shop time was $60 an hour. We had customers that would drive 1.5+ hours to get work done on their cars. We were the cheapest ones around, but still did quality repairs.

I was an apprentice there and used to do alignments and shop only charged the customer $40 for a 4 wheel alignment.

 

[jrs91]

Most people don't care enough about most things to do their research, find out what's good, and then spend extra money on the quality item. Walmart is full of cheap **** yet it's the most successful retail business of all-time. People that spend the extra are the minority.

How many people are going to blow $200 on an all-clad frying pan, or $400-500 on a Japanese chef's knife, or $130 on ratchet when Walmart will sell you a similar size for $15, $15, and $10 respectively. The Walmart stuff is ****, but you have to go through 10 of them before you get up to the cost of the high quality item.

Having said that, there's something to say for the enjoyment of your craft and using quality things, and for that reason, I myself don't mind spending the extra. Having some disposable income helps too.