The VISES of Garage Journal

[bigcaddy]

I parked my Wilton 400S and put it in the sale pile, not happy with the round barrel. The square slide sure works better for me building all these vise parts. it is nice having basically a anvil to rest my handles on while forming the ends. I use a piece of nylon as the pad to not damage the slide. I have not found my vise that will eventually be the one. I just started restoring my vises and will eventually pick the one main vise that will handle my work. I really like how Carla finished her 103R, see picture. Especially how the jaws are smooth, I hate adding copper caps every-time I have to grab a precision block to tap or work on. I can not wait till I get to the Reeds, Hollands and Prentiss's, I am sure I will find the one made for me. I do know it will not be a Parker.

Did you not pickup a rock island? Those have excellent qualities and are fairly underrated.

 

[FMC1959]

... I can not wait till I get to the Reeds, Hollands and Prentiss's, I am sure I will find the one made for me. I do know it will not be a Parker.

Kevin, I know you have made many Parker jaws, including the big 978, just wondering why you say it will not be a Parker?

 

[KMScott]

Did you not pickup a rock island? Those have excellent qualities and are fairly underrated.

BC, I just do not like Rock Islands, I do not like the castings they are to soft and that bugs me, at least the 594 I worked on. I have two more that needs attention and will have a better feel when I get to them. The Rock Island #143 and # 75 both with 5" jaws. I have room for only one shop vise.

 

[Fretters]

Especially how the jaws are smooth, I hate adding copper caps every-time I have to grab a precision block to tap or work on.

I hear you on that front. I'm half tempted to try some wood inserts on one of mine, to see how those fare. Possibly a nice bit of Cherry. Either that or cast some lead inserts. Easy enough to recast when they wear.

I can not wait till I get to the Reeds, Hollands and Prentiss's, I am sure I will find the one made for me. I do know it will not be a Parker.

My favourite still seems to be the Parkinsons. They just have that something about them.

 

[Fretters]

Yep, I was pretty surprised myself. I never bothered to measure how thick it is, but it's pretty damn thin.

Surprised here too. Seeing that, I'd definitely be leary of leaning on one of those if I had one.

 

[FMC1959]

Since this group will immediately post---

"It Ain't No Good Without Photos"

Behold---

A photo of Wilton "Hollowness"...

I remember seeing other cutaway pics in the past that were not as hollow, and Filson's pic had me curious. I went to the Wilton website and found this cutaway for the C3.

I figured that Filson's pic with the hollow part showing on the static and Oldie's cutaway showing the same thing, those were probably Tradesman. On Wilton's website, the Tradesman 6 1/2" shows the same cutaway as the 6" C3. Considering the 6 1/2" Tradesman weighs in at about 71 lbs and the 6" C3 is 3 x the weight at 204 lbs, looks like these cutaways are just marketing BS, or someone really messed up on their website.

 

[va.grouseman]

originally posted by KMScott.

I can not wait till I get to the Reeds, Hollands and Prentiss's, I am sure I will find the one made for me. I do know it will not be a Parker.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I'm betting it will be a real nice Reed 206 or a 208.

 

[McBrownie]

Parker is out of business.
Wilton is a thriving business.
I hate to use logic, but that is your answer...

Good point. Maybe we should see how Wilton fares against Reed in the opinion poll.

 

[zoomieport]

They're all great...

 

[drivesitfar]

Here's a question i'm not finding a good answer to as long as we are talking about vise companies. since Parker bought Prentiss, and Union bought Parker who ended up with all Union's product and factories? Who bought out Rock Island and American Scale's products and factories?

Maybe Morgan since they are still in business and only selling to the government and they still make a very stout well built vise?

Wilton now owns Columbian and do they own other companies from the past?

I can tell you all this information is not easily found and we at Garage Journal are usually the first place Google sends us to.

My favorite vises are the C series Wiltons and Reeds and a Wilton Baby Bullet on a power are with the clamp, but if you handed me a Holland's, Rock Island, Starrett, Prentiss, American Scale, Leinen, Bison, Parkinson, Swinden, York, Columbian, Morgan, Parker and maybe a few others i sure wouldn't turn them down. i'm sure i forgot a few, but these just seem to be the ones that were built to last for generations.

 

[Mark in Indiana]

I am so tempted to jump in and stir the s#^t because However, like zoomieport said "They're all great..." I own and have sold several vises, and I like several brands along with the Parkers and Wiltons.

IMHO: I have a vested interest in both brands. The "greatness" of a vise is using it for its designed use. I wouldn't clamp heavy iron in my Wilton and I wouldn't clamp a wood work piece in anything but my Morgan 10A woodworking vise.

2 outstanding features about my Parker is the smooth jaw faces and the "drum brake" swivel base (which would take an act of God to move when locked down). I don't have any complaints about it. There was mention about lack of precision. I've never had concern about that except in a mill vise or drill vise.

2 outstanding features about my Wilton Bullet is that it's light but rigid and the spindle is completely enclosed. Another bonus for me is that they are highly sought after. So it will go for a premium price in a short time, if I need to get rid of it. The only concern I have about it is the swivel sometimes binds up on the carriage bolts and (compared to my Parker) it doesn't have full 360 degree rotation.

Yes, Wilton is still in business, owned by WMC. I don't think highly of their practice of making vises in China and marketing them with the Wilton name. However, that's unfortunately a common practice with a lot of manufactures. That's why I preserve and use vintage tools...like many of us here.


Last point: Parker vises and Wilton Bullets are unique. Most vises are similar in design. What other brand of vises have a unique design that sets them apart from the rest? Bison-Bail has some very unique vises in their group.


Happy Trails!

 

[Mark in Indiana]

http://louisville.craigslist.org/tls/4680026386.html

Not sold yet??? Why??????

 

[Outlawmws]

Sir Scott, I've seen that Reed of Carla's, as well a s couple more When I was over to her place for the 386 Parker I got from her, and they are even better looking in person.

 

[KMScott]

Sir Scott, I've seen that Reed of Carla's, as well a s couple more When I was over to her place for the 386 Parker I got from her, and they are even better looking in person.

What you do not see is how they feel when opening and closing. I am sure the backlash is held to a minimum and the jaws close up very parallel. You can only get fit and finishing like that by having the knowhow and patience. I have been around Toolmakers like Carla my whole career and wish I was closer just to sit back and listen and learn from her. I am saving my Reeds after I get a few more restorations finished.

 

[Fretters]

Last point: Parker vises and Wilton Bullets are unique. Most vises are similar in design. What other brand of vises have a unique design that sets them apart from the rest?

The Swindens fall into the unique, non import type, camp.

 

[drivesitfar]

I agree that watching or listening to Carla and maybe a few others (even you Mr. Scott) would be an awesome learning experience. I've seen many posts of Carla's on the Vise Repair 101 thread and other threads and I'd take her advice any day or let her handle any of my valued tools.

Mark: I agree that using and having Wiltons is a good investment because they are not cheaply made even if some don't have as much stealth as other vises we love. they do have a great name and marketing and before i joined GJ or started reading the vise thread Wilton was the only vises i'd be interested in buying.

Maybe we should start a pole for our favorite vises on a thread and see where the GJ membership stands? it would be hard for me to vote for just one though.

 

[McBrownie]

http://louisville.craigslist.org/tls/4680026386.html

Not sold yet??? Why??????

I'm surprised as well, but....

Could it be....

The COLOR?!?!?!?!

Someone call Oldldh quick and make sure he is OK

 

[Fretters]

...or let her handle any of my valued tools.

Sorry, but couldn't resist.

 

[Outlawmws]

Parker is out of business.
Wilton is a thriving business.
I hate to use logic, but that is your answer...

With all due respect; that logic does not address the quality of the tools. It addressees the economic times, business plans, and business practices of the companies. I'd guess fewer that 10% of the tool making companies in the US are still existent. Did the 90% all make bad tools? Obviously not. the business picture changed and they didn't adapt...

From a technical standpoint, where Wilton shines is having a protected main screw. Outdoors, in the weather, in harsh abrasive environments, the screw threads last longer and doesn't rust.

Conversely we have all seen quite a number of Wiltons in this very thread that needed either new or repaired main screws screws due to a hard positioner vs, the soft main screw head. not good design there.

Wilton generally has less room from the top of the jaws to the slide.

KMScott pointed out the round slide was not good for his use.

Is Wilton a BAD vise? Of course not, it has it's own strengths and weaknesses.

I prefer conventional US vise designs. Personal preference; period. Others love their Wiltons. I'm happy for them and happier still that people are wiling to pay a premium for them. I've made about $700 on three Wiltons because of that, so that makes me even happier. I do the same with stray Bose speakers and sound gear, as that name sells easily and for top dollar. But none of my stereo gear is Bose... Again personal preference.

Bottom line is that equating a business health of lack thereof, to it's product design or quality does not mean anything.

 

[Outlawmws]

What you do not see is how they feel when opening and closing. I am sure the backlash is held to a minimum and the jaws close up very parallel. You can only get fit and finishing like that by having the knowhow and patience. I have been around Toolmakers like Carla my whole career and wish I was closer just to sit back and listen and learn from her. I am saving my Reeds after I get a few more restorations finished.

Absolutely true.

 

[zoomieport]

With all due respect; that logic does not address the quality of the tools. It addressees the economic times, business plans, and business practices of the companies. I'd guess fewer that 10% of the tool making companies in the US are still existent. Did the 90% all make bad tools? Obviously not. the business picture changed and they didn't adapt...

From a technical standpoint, where Wilton shines is having a protected main screw. Outdoors, in the weather, in harsh abrasive environments, the screw threads last longer and doesn't rust.

Conversely we have all seen quite a number of Wiltons in this very thread that needed either new or repaired main screws screws due to a hard positioner vs, the soft main screw head. not good design there.

Wilton generally has less room from the top of the jaws to the slide.

KMScott pointed out the round slide was not good for his use.

Is Wilton a BAD vise? Of course not, it has it's own strengths and weaknesses.

I prefer conventional US vise designs. Personal preference; period. Others love their Wiltons. I'm happy for them and happier still that people are wiling to pay a premium for them. I've made about $700 on three Wiltons because of that, so that makes me even happier. I do the same with stray Bose speakers and sound gear, as that name sells easily and for top dollar. But none of my stereo gear is Bose... Again personal preference.

Bottom line is that equating a business health of lack thereof, to it's product design or quality does not mean anything.

I never said they were bad, actually I believe I said they were great...

 

[Outlawmws]

"Parker is out of business.
Wilton is a thriving business.
I hate to use logic, but that is your answer..."

OK, in this In this post you didn't say either...

So what question was your logic answering?

 

[zoomieport]

It was a joke, I'll remove the post, wow!

 

[taumac]

McBrownie. Here's my Prentiss num 19

Here's some info I got from a GJ member. I asked him to date when mine was made.
Here's the pm I got from him.
Here's my best guess: 1917-1923

The bump on the side where the slide comes out showed up in 1912 or 1913, so definitely not before that.

A 1917 ad shows the scripted writing like yours. Some other 1917 - 1920 ads still show the sideways writing. Somewhere in there is the start of your model. I have no ads from 1914, 15, or 16 so the style could've started sometime in there, too.

A 1924 ad shows the pull up pin for the swivel has changed to the one with a lever on top. A 1923 ad still has one like yours.

I hope this helps.

5 Stitches Garage
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=211899
Florida GJ Group
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/group.php?groupid=117

 

[dhill001]

My vise is a Parker. It is marked: C.Parker Co. Meridan Ct on one side and 489 1/2 on the other.
I got it at an estate sale for $20. It had cracked somehow. The crack was welded up, but had failed again on one side of the repair. My (Lincoln, 120V MIG 70A) welder wasn't up to the task so I drilled & tapped the underside across the fracture for a few 3/8-24 grade 8 socket headed cap screws to hold it in compression. So far it's held for 5 years. It hasn't been further restored as it fits the squalor of my shop better as-is. The shop is pretty cramped, 9' X 12' in which I've packed more stuff than is reasonable. But I like it.

 

[Mark in Indiana]

I'm surprised as well, but....

Could it be....

The COLOR?!?!?!?!

Someone call Oldldh quick and make sure he is OK

My point is that this is a very well restored vise for 125$. You can't get that quality for that price new. I usually get more than that price (and sell it a lot faster) for a restored Columbian, Craftsman or Wilton Mechanics vise. I can understand if the seller is in Bum F*** Egypt but this one worries me.

 

[McBrownie]

McBrownie. Here's my Prentiss num 19

Here's some info I got from a GJ member. I asked him to date when mine was made.
Here's the pm I got from him.
Here's my best guess: 1917-1923

The bump on the side where the slide comes out showed up in 1912 or 1913, so definitely not before that.

A 1917 ad shows the scripted writing like yours. Some other 1917 - 1920 ads still show the sideways writing. Somewhere in there is the start of your model. I have no ads from 1914, 15, or 16 so the style could've started sometime in there, too.

A 1924 ad shows the pull up pin for the swivel has changed to the one with a lever on top. A 1923 ad still has one like yours.

I hope this helps.

Taumac,

Nice vise and thanks for the great info. I might have mistyped in an earlier post. My vise does have the lever, so that should put it at 1924 or newer. Any idea how long they made the 19's? The cool thing is that this vise was in my mom's home town and was probably there when she was born.

View media item 43570

 

[va.grouseman]

Here's another one for Oldldh.---Could it be the color?

https://milwaukee.craigslist.org/tls/4690174051.html

 

[va.grouseman]

Previously posted by dhilloo1.

The shop is pretty cramped, 9' X 12' in which I've packed more stuff than is reasonable. But I like it.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


dhill,---You are a person after my own heart.---Mine's 20' x 14' and I can't hardly walk or turn around in it, but I sure do like all my good junk.---Got plans for a bigger shop but probably won't like it as good.---You loose that good closeness that you have (when you're stepping over stuff to get to stuff), after you move into a large facility.

 

[dhill001]

I worry that some day I'll look at the TV at the gym and see I've been featured on a hoarders reality show or some such. But there is so much really INTERESTING tech in the world and so much of it is just thrown out by the typical consumer. There is also a variant of Murphy's which says that you will need the thing you throw out less than a week after you've thrown it out.
I'm doomed.

 

[oldldh]

Both of the vises posted for me are very nice for the price, but they are too small...

I'm a 4 1/2"+ kind of guy...80 pounds---and up....

My Craftsman 5197/5198 search is an example...

I have a Starrett 925 which will fill my needs, just fine...for now...

I don't need but two user vises....a 4 1/2 and a 5, hence the 5197/5198 search...

BigCaddy is "properly restoring" "OUR" 5198...I will find another one, and a 5197 to go with it...

And they will be---

ARREST-ME-RED!!!

 

[Verg]

Here's a question i'm not finding a good answer to as long as we are talking about vise companies. since Parker bought Prentiss, and Union bought Parker who ended up with all Union's product and factories? Who bought out Rock Island and American Scale's products and factories?

Maybe Morgan since they are still in business and only selling to the government and they still make a very stout well built vise?

Wilton now owns Columbian and do they own other companies from the past?

I can tell you all this information is not easily found and we at Garage Journal are usually the first place Google sends us to.

My favorite vises are the C series Wiltons and Reeds and a Wilton Baby Bullet on a power are with the clamp, but if you handed me a Holland's, Rock Island, Starrett, Prentiss, American Scale, Leinen, Bison, Parkinson, Swinden, York, Columbian, Morgan, Parker and maybe a few others i sure wouldn't turn them down. i'm sure i forgot a few, but these just seem to be the ones that were built to last for generations.

I dont know if this helps for Rock Island:

in 1957 the Britman electric company merged with Whirlpool. Apparently whirlpool wanted to extend their line of consumer electronics. I imagine the information on the fate of Rock Island manufacturing is some place in whirlpool.
See down to the 1950-1960's paragraph:
http://www.fundinguniverse.com/company-histories/whirlpool-corporation-history/

advertising book on Rock Island Ill, not sure of the publish date talks alot about the heavy industry in rock island lots of cool old america.
https://archive.org/details/industrialsurvey00cham

Spend some time trying to find out info on Rock Island, after all the 574 below is my frist Vise/resto.

 

[72CZ]

Taumac,

Nice vise and thanks for the great info. I might have mistyped in an earlier post. My vise does have the lever, so that should put it at 1924 or newer. Any idea how long they made the 19's? The cool thing is that this vise was in my mom's home town and was probably there when she was born.

View media item 43570

Here's my 19

 

[drivesitfar]

Verg: thanks for helping with the Rock Island vise history. i did know that Birtman Electric bought them in the early 50's, but didn't know Whirlpool bought Birtman Electric in 1957.

thanks to your links i read that amazingly enough Birtman was bought for it's vacuum business. i'm guessing Birtman just bought Rock Island vise company for it's inventory and maybe factory and machining without actually producing another vise after the purchase from scratch. that's probably why the vises sold after 1950 (ish) when Birtman bought Rock Island that they put badges on the vises they sold.

sorry i didn't have time to get the measurements of my C2 or Wilton 6 inch tradesman for your swivel issue on your C3. that C3 is a helluva vise and the only issues I've seen problems with that vise with normal use is their swivel bases would brake which is maybe why yours is missing.

by the way for a new member you have a couple nice vises and great restoration on that Rock Island.

ALL: anybody have a measurement for a Wilton C2 or big Wilton Tradesman so Verg can see if he can use a swivel off of one of those vises if he finds one instead of having to buy a new one from Wilton?

ALL Again: as far as the most popular or best vise i agree that Wilton has the best marketing and have parts for repairs so their value is usually higher than all the rest of the old vises.

 

[Gtyler]

Both of the vises posted for me are very nice for the price, but they are too small...

I'm a 4 1/2"+ kind of guy...80 pounds---and up....

My Craftsman 5197/5198 search is an example...

I have a Starrett 925 which will fill my needs, just fine...for now...

I don't need but two user vises....a 4 1/2 and a 5, hence the 5197/5198 search...

BigCaddy is "properly restoring" "OUR" 5198...I will find another one, and a 5197 to go with it...

And they will be---

ARREST-ME-RED!!!

Not much of a red fan eh? You're going to hate the colour I just painted my Yost. Guess what it's red!

How do you feel about green? Personally I'm feeling a bit like it's christmas around here.

On another note why is there not much talk about Yost on here. It's always Parker and Reed and Wilton, but Yost is another american vise maker that still makes their product in the USA out of good quality ductile cast and from what I can tell they make some darn good vises. Am i wrong? I have never owned a Wilton to be honest so I can't really talk, but at the moment if I was in the market for a new vise I would look at Yost and Record first before I went to Wilton. Not for any reason other than that's the style I'm used to and I'm not sure I'd like the round slide and less extension. I have had Record vises for years, and absolutely love them.

Anyway, here are my vises with some new paint. I haven't polished anything yet. Not sure if I will since they are just going to be put to use in my blacksmith shop. Before pics are on page 1050.

Edit: A fun fact I forgot to add. To get a sense of scale, the handle on the Ridgid has a 1" diameter and is 19" long.

 

[oldldh]

Gtyler---The "Arrest-Me-Red" story is a long one, which I won't go into here...

But, the red vise, you see below, is a "Properly Restored" Craftsman 5196 that was done by a GJ member...who sold it...a 60 lb+ 4" vise is nothing to sneeze at..."A-M-R" looks real good on this family of vises...

The blueish vise next to it is a Craftsman 5198 that materialized in Big Bear, CA a short time ago...it is now being "properly restored", and will soon be unveiled to the GJ world...A 107 lb, 5" vise is a load of vise...It was going to be mine, but the price, and shipping fees would have been too much...I'll find another...It's in a good home...

Many GJ members consider these the "Best Looking" vises, ever made...I know I do...I wish they had finished the range with a 5199/6" 175 pounder...

Yost makes a damn nice vise...but we mainly get our enjoys discovering, rescuing, restoring, and collecting antique vises...

Your Record is a real beast of vise...if it was mine, I'd probably whack myself in the "pain-fulls" with that 1" handle...

You've got yourself a couple of real nice keeper/users there...

Ya Dun Gud, Bubba!!!

 

[taumac]

McBrownie.
I don't know answer to that. I usually rely on other GJ members for all my info and facts but I'm learning. Was that original paint? Mine had some dark greenish/ blackish something on it. Could be that process you mention on the repair thread.

5 Stitches Garage
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=211899
Florida GJ Group
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/group.php?groupid=117

 

[Gtyler]

Gtyler---The "Arrest-Me-Red" story is a long one, which I won't go into here...

But, the red vise, you see below, is a "Properly Restored" Craftsman 5196 that was done by a GJ member...who sold it...a 60 lb+ 4" vise is nothing to sneeze at..."A-M-R" looks real good on this family of vises...

The blueish vise next to it is a Craftsman 5198 that materialized in Big Bear, CA a short time ago...it is now being "properly restored", and will soon be unveiled to the GJ world...A 107 lb, 5" vise is a load of vise...It was going to be mine, but the price, and shipping fees would have been too much...I'll find another...It's in a good home...

Many GJ members consider these the "Best Looking" vises, ever made...I know I do...I wish they had finished the range with a 5199/6" 175 pounder...

Yost makes a damn nice vise...but we mainly get our enjoys discovering, rescuing, restoring, and collecting antique vises...

Your Record is a real beast of vise...if it was mine, I'd probably whack myself in the "pain-fulls" with that 1" handle...

You've got yourself a couple of real nice keeper/users there...

Ya Dun Gud, Bubba!!!

I must say, those craftsmans are indeed a very fine looking hunk of iron. Beautiful restore job on the one.

 

[JasonJ]

and just because every time oldldh posts that red 5196, I have to post mine.

 

[Verg]

Thanks Driveitfar! I never knew how incomplete my life was with out nice vise or two... or more.....This forum got me buying all sorts of stuff: first bonney tools, now huge vices. A camel back drill press is defiantly on the list. All i can say is people at work don't understand. Its nice to be able to share my veneration for old american industry on this forum.

GTyler,
Sweet vices! the rigid and yost very cool. I know i will get a Yost vise its only a matter of time.