Hep with gassless mig vs stick welding.

[uart]

Currently I've only got a very cheap little AC stick welder that's pretty crappy. I don't use it a whole lot, just every now and then to (try to) repair stuff. The problem is that most of the time I'm trying to weld something thin and have to have the current set fairly low (to avoid blowing holes in the job). TBH I usually have heaps of problems with the rod sticking and end up with something that looks like a little line of random bird poop.

I'm thinking of getting a cheap gasless mig (flux core wire wheel) welder to see if it suits me any better. A local store has a fairly basic model which is quite low cost, so I think I'll give it a go. The question I have is this, I've never used anything other than a stick welder, do you think a small cheap flux core wire welder would be easier for a noob to use, especially on small stuff?

And just to show how much of a noob I am on this, one thing I'd really like to know is how do you start an arc on a mig? Is it really as simple as it seems to just place the electrode at the correct distance from a (cleaned) job and pull the trigger. With the stick welder I go "scrape scratch flash stuck blob" about 20 times on average before I even get a sustained arc going. (Well not so much on thicker stuff at higher amps, but certainly like that on low amp settings).

 

[e30bradley]

I personally don't like flux cored .. unless you are welding heavy stuff it *****. I recommend a real MIG - metal INERT GAS. If its gassles its call a flux cored wire feed welder. Save up and get a hobart handler. I think the handler 140 is the good 120v one. I have the 190 w/ spool gun but by the time I got the welder and spare tips and wire and 2 tanks I have about $1300 or 1400 in it.

 

[sberry]

The cheap machine will be no better than what you have now. What model machine do you have and what voltage does it run on? Most try to turn too low on thin material as a substitute for technique.

 

[e30bradley]

I have no idea if these guys ship to Australia... And if they do it will cost a fortune. Can you get hobart welders in your country? If you can get miller you should be able to get hobart.
http://www.tractorsupply.com/en/store/hobart-handlerreg;-140-mig-welder

 

[rsanter]

The cheap machine will be no better than what you have now. What model machine do you have and what voltage does it run on? Most try to turn too low on thin material as a substitute for technique.

Cheap mig may be worse than you have now

Look on CL for an inexpensive but decent brand used mig.
You will have the option of gas or flux core with that

Bob

 

[rsanter]

I have no idea if these guys ship to Australia... And if they do it will cost a fortune. Can you get hobart welders in your country? If you can get miller you should be able to get hobart.
http://www.tractorsupply.com/en/store/hobart-handlerreg;-140-mig-welder

I have a friend in Australia that could put it in his container

Bob

 

[Slappynuts]

Get a MIG not one of those flux core machines. Flux core is no better than the stick you have now. I would also recommend getting a TIG machine.

 

[uart]

What model machine do you have and what voltage does it run on?

It's just some discount store home brand (probably some generic Chinese thing rebranded). It's ac only and goes from about [edit]sorry, not 35[/edit] 45 to 100 amps. The supply voltage is 240v single phase, but that's the standard ac phase voltage here (240v at 50Hz).

Most try to turn too low on thin material as a substitute for technique.

Yeah I definitely think that's at least part of my problem.

Thanks for the info everyone. The reason I want to try the flux core wire type is that I really don't have a whole lot of use for a welder. It's something I'll probably only use once in a while, but would still like to have. I can't really justify spending too much on it, and I really don't want to mess with gas bottles if I can avoid it.

I plan on still keeping the stick welder as I can usually get an arc going ok on anything large enough to let me use to upper end of the current range. I was just hoping that a small flux core machine might be easier on thin stuff.

For example I was trying to weld some 2mm (approx 5/64") sheet yesterday day and was really struggling. I'm not sure what sized stick or current setting I should have been using, but I probably had too thicker stick and too lower current.

 

[Zeke]

Get smaller rod and investigate easy use rods. You need to know rods for your machine, i.e., AC or DC and from 6010 to 7028.

http://www.weldingtipsandtricks.com/shielded-metal-arc-welding-rods.html

Something you might try on the thin stuff is 1/16th 6013. Read no. 3 at the bottom.

 

[RossABQ]

If you buy a decent MIG that is designed to have gas added, but sold without the gas components, it will be a better machine than a 110v stick. It just depends what you want to use it for, and how much you'll really be using it. If you are just repairing relatively thick (18 gauge sheet metal or thicker) and spatter isn't a big concern, you could be happy with gasless. In the future if you want to step up to gas, you can always do it. I'd stick to 220v machines if you think you'll ever go to gas.

(edit -- just saw your voltages, not sure how 240 single phase sompares to our 110/220)

 

[uart]

Get smaller rod and investigate easy use rods. You need to know rods for your machine, i.e., AC or DC and from 6010 to 7028.

Something you might try on the thin stuff is 1/16th 6013. Read no. 3 at the bottom.

Zeke, the rods I have are 2.5mm general purpose (AC or DC) but other than that I'm not sure of the exact type. I got them with the welder.

I looked around for thinner rods yesterday and found some 2.0mm ones (similar general purpose type to what I had but only thinner). I wanted to get 1/16" (1.6mm), but 2.0 mm was the smallest I could find locally. I think the new 2.0mm rods are E6013, but I haven't tried them yet.

 

[uart]

If you are just repairing relatively thick (18 gauge sheet metal or thicker) and spatter isn't a big concern, you could be happy with gassless.

Thanks Ross. I'm not good with sheet gauges so let me get it straight, 18 gauge sheet steel would be about 0.2" (1.25 mm) is that right. That sounds good to me, because I was really struggling with 2.0mm (14 gauge) the other day (though I think I was using too bigger rod and to smaller current). If I could handle 18 gauge with a bit of practice that would be good. Yeah I'm not worried about splatter, nothing could look worse than he "bird poop" I'm make now.

BTW. Yeah our 240V is basically just the standard single phase supply here (like your 110V ac is there). A standard domestic outlet can provide 2400 watts (240 volt at 10 amps)

 

[uart]

BTW. How important is is voltage/current control on flux core wire welders. The cheap ones I've seen look like they have a continuous control on speed, but only a "high/low" switch on voltage (or is it current?). Is this normal?

 

[RossABQ]

What I meant about voltages here vs there is, a 110v anything here is a cheap POS, with few exceptions. I don't know if single-phase is the limitation on quality or if voltage is.

I had a ~$300 MIG that was sold at Home Depot/Lowe's, other store, and was 110v gas/gasless. It did much better on flux-core than on gas, particularly as far as a clean strike and start-up. It had 1 - 2, Hi -Low switches, so 4 "heat ranges", plus a variable feed rate dial. I got a lot of work done with it before I stepped up to a $500 220v MIG for doing sheet metal work. No question the $500 machine is capable of nicer work, but for welding a couple pieces of pipe together for a fence, or a broken hinge, etc. it did a decent job and with a minimum of fuss. Being 110v was a big plus, I could carry it out into the yard to fix things (really have to have a good extension cord to do that on 110v).

 

[kelpaso1]

Get smaller rod and investigate easy use rods. You need to know rods for your machine, i.e., AC or DC and from 6010 to 7028.

http://www.weldingtipsandtricks.com/shielded-metal-arc-welding-rods.html

Something you might try on the thin stuff is 1/16th 6013. Read no. 3 at the bottom.

Years ago I bought some kind of "no stick" rods and they worked great. You could just stick the rod to the metal and then drag the rod right in the puddle. Didn't need to hold a gap between the rod and the metal. Unfortunately I can not remember what company or name of these rods were. I got them from the local welding supply store in Calgary.

 

[uart]

I had a ~$300 MIG that was sold at Home Depot/Lowe's, other store, and was 110v gas/gasless. It did much better on flux-core than on gas, particularly as far as a clean strike and start-up. It had 1 - 2, Hi -Low switches, so 4 "heat ranges", plus a variable feed rate dial.

Yeah that sounds kind of what I'm looking at, but probably even lower end. The one I saw today was flux core only (no gas option) and I think it was only two heat ranges (but continuous feed control).

I don't know anything about flux core wire welding. Looking at a local hardware store they only seem to have 0.8mm (1/32") flux core wire in 0.45kg (1 lb) spools. Is that what you'd normally use for one of these welders, or are there other sizes?

Also, what is the technique for starting a weld (striking the arc) with a wire welder. Is it just a matter of having the correct settings and distance and just pulling the trigger and moving the tip. Or is it harder than it looks?

 

[sberry]

You should be abole to weld 14 ga with the stick machine. Despite common practice I don't have a lot of use for 6013. The current needed to run it is higher and 1/16 is too small. The arc length becomes super critical. We routinely weld 16 with 1/8 6011, I bought a box of 3/32 but really don't use it.

 

[crewchief888]

it's possible to weld thin stuff, like sheet metal, with flux core wire.

it takes patience and practice,
LOTS of both

i'd look for a machine thats capable of running gas, if you dont want or need to run gas, a simple spool change and polarity reversal and you're in business with flux core.

FWIW
shielding gas price have gone up aprox 55%-60% in the past few years.

a lot of your success or failure will be based on the type of wire you decide to run.
stick to name brands, the stuff that the big box stores sell is really garbage

 

[Zeke]

Years ago I bought some kind of "no stick" rods and they worked great. You could just stick the rod to the metal and then drag the rod right in the puddle. Didn't need to hold a gap between the rod and the metal. Unfortunately I can not remember what company or name of these rods were. I got them from the local welding supply store in Calgary.

You were using 7024. High deposit and good strength as a weld bead but not the best for deep penetration.

 

[Ruger_556]

Currently I've only got a very cheap little AC stick welder that's pretty crappy. I don't use it a whole lot, just every now and then to (try to) repair stuff. The problem is that most of the time I'm trying to weld something thin and have to have the current set fairly low (to avoid blowing holes in the job). TBH I usually have heaps of problems with the rod sticking and end up with something that looks like a little line of random bird poop.

This may be counter intuitive but turn the heat up on your stick welder, a lot. You can stitch weld light metal with a stick machine. Important note though, this does not work with 7018 at all. Gravel yard I used to work for bought 50 lb boxes of 1/8 6011 and that's all you got. Rusty sheet metal was a challenge

 

[kelpaso1]

You were using 7024. High deposit and good strength as a weld bead but not the best for deep penetration.

That must have been what I bought. I looked up 7024 and got this from Welding Web. That explains why I was able to just drag the rod right in the puddle.

"I agree with all the above. This is a wonderful flat position rod which can produce very smooth fluid beads on fairly thin material (3/16" maybe 1/8"), but is more applicable to thicker section welding where you can crank up the amperage and let it flow.

This is the classic "drag rod", where the thick iron powder coating on the rod allows you to drag the end of the electode along the joint, and the wire core is naturally recessed at the proper arc length within an inverted cone formed by the coating at the tip.

When dialed in properly, the heavy slag coating of this rod self lifts and peels easily off the bead as you weld. It is helpful to weld slightly uphill to assist in keeping the heavy slag behind the arc. Improper technique, such as traveling too fast, or running downhill, will result in large trapped slag pockets in the bead.

7014 is similar in operating conditions, but has less iron powder in the thinner coating, and may be more controllable for lower amperage, thin material, flat and horizontal position welds than 7024.

As a general rule, a tight arc length helps concentate the arc energy, improve penetration, and control the weld pool, so the fact that the you can lightly drag the tip of the 7014/70124 rod down the center of the joint and automatically maintain a suitable arc length make these rods easy to produce very smooth and attactive weld profiles for flat and horizontal joints."

 

[uart]

Thanks everyone for helping out. I've decided to just practice a bit more with the little stick welder for now. I still might get a small gas/gasless MIG some time in the future. I still think I'd find it easier for thin stuff.

The link Zeke provided about welding rods was very useful. I've been using some cheap e6013 2.5mm (that's just a shade over 3/32) that I got with the welder and I think I had two main problems.

1. I was trying to use too lower current. Back when I first got this welder the first few things I tried it on were really thin, and after just blowing holes in everything I think I got a bit gun shy with the current setting. Anyway I tried again yesterday and found that I could go a lot higher in current on that 14 gauge stuff I was trying to weld last week.

2. I don't use it very often, so this pack of rods has been sitting open for a few years now, and it's all stored in a pretty damp old shed. So they were definitely not in prime condition. The ends were rusting with some of the flux coating peeling off. I'm pretty sure that the coating had absorbed moisture too, as it seemed a lot lighter colour after I dried them for an hour or so in a warm oven. There were a fairly solid brown, but after I dried them they went a much lighter pinkish-brown colour. TBH I can't remember exactly what colour they were when I first got them.

Anyway I had another go at welding the 14 gauge (2.0 mm) stuff yesterday and it went a lot smoother. I used the new rods (these are E6013 at 2.0mm = 5/64") and I also upped the current to about 75 amps.

BTW. I tried practising on some thicker steel with the original 2.5mm rods and the current set to max (100 amps), but the performance was still rubbish. Like I said above, I think the old rods had absorbed too much moisture. They hissed and spluttered and the arc was extinguishing really easily. I nipped the rusting tips off and dried them for about an hour in a warm oven and they seemed a lot better. I'll probably end up throwing these rods and buying some new ones, and I'll certainly be looking into getting a better sealed storage method for them in the future.

Thanks everyone for the help.