Anyone installed geothermal heat pump themselves?

[thammel]

With rebates for these and with increasing utility costs, I'm thinking about a closed loop horizontal pipe geothermal heat pump for the new garage. I live on 1.3 acres so digging the trench is feasible. I haven't priced having someone else do this, but know it won't be cheap. A little googling finds a number of places who sell the products for DIYers. Anybody have any experience with this? I know it's by far the most efficient system. I also see some that have provisions to do the in-slab heating with it too (since I already put the 300' of slab piping in)

Comments?

Tom

 

[rickairmedic]

Tom I personally think a geo system is an awful lot for the average homeowner to try and tackle . I put one in many many years ago in Fla. the homeowner had a lake on the property we could sink the loop into and hit the lottery so had expendable money . I have not even considered putting one in up here Ky. due to the fact the costs would outweigh the benefits for 99.9% of my customers . I have had requests about them but after explaining the costs to most customers they are quite happy to go with a high efficeincy dual fuel system for about half the cost and still have darn near the same efficeincy of the geo system. The other thing to look at is the fact if you install such a system yourself you likely wont have a warranty on it so you will have a very expensive system that has no warranty due to the fact it was not put in by a professional in that field.

Rick

 

[RoadBeater]

This will be the 10th year for geothermal in my house. I had a contractor install it, Didn't look too bad to do, dig the trench drop in the loop and glue the joints, However, I would not recommend the Climatemaster brand, in 10 years, we've been thru two compressors, one circuit board, and one thermostat. I am not sure yet if we've broke even on the costs.....

 

[brad d]

I would like to install one.. a water to water for the shop and water to water for the floors in the house and water to air for the air ducts...

I have thought about it but dont know how to do the calculations.. need to find a good online manual j calculator

 

[redsky49]

"Manual J" is a simplified heating/cooling load calculation method designed and used by heating contractors. You will need more than that to design a successful geothermal system. Unless you have an experienced contractor, or an equipment vendor that will layout the system, you are facing an uphill battle.

If truly interested in such a system, I would suggest that you offer to do the "grunt" work - digging the trenches and installing the piping, with the contractor doing the final install and test,check and start up. Finalize the responsibilities prior to signing a contract, being certain to establish warranty responsibility, inspections, etc. Make certain who is pulling permits and a timetable for equipment deliveries, etc. Verify piping with contractor as well as equipment manufacturer and piping vendor. Sometimes very minor items such as the method of backfilling can affect the piping performance and life span.

Some contractors won't even discuss such an arrangement since home owners typically will not get their share of the work done on time and without excessive involvement of the contractor. You delay the Contractor, you cost him money.

At the end of the day, it may make more sense to simply hire out the whole thing.

Offered only as opinion

 

[sparky1562]

I didn't attempt it on my house. Hired a contractor that had experience. Went with Florida Heat Pumps. I didn't want to mess with the fusion welded piping.

I have to disagree with Rick. Most people are scared off by the first cost. If some one intends to sell in less than 10 years, it would be hard to show a payback. I invested for the long hall, and in about 8 years time it will pay back over any conventional system. (Note: I don't have natural gas service so I am comparing to propane and that hastle, and I live in a TVA state: lower electrical costs, higher gas prices.). Some other factors that I considered where no equipment outside (wear and tear, theft, noise), the units are very quiet even being indoors, incentives and rebates, no gas in the house (no CO worries), no flue to loose air through. Very comfortable heat. Not far enough south for a conventional heat pump to work well in the middle of winter.

I wish I would have put radient lines in my shop. Looking tomorrow at running geothermal lines to the shop so I can put another unit out there.

 

[rickairmedic]

Sparky 3/4 of the peaple here who ask me about Geo live on tiny lots where theres 6" of topsoil on top of solid rock . They would have to have wells drilled usually 3 or more wells at $10,000.00 + per well . That alone makes Geo not worth it here most of the time now if you have an acre or 2 and can dig down deep enough to take advantage of the stable ground temps to run your loops great it also helps if you are going to DIE in the house and not move in 5 -10 years . I would say the best bang for the buck today if you are building a house is solar electric you can go off the grid with solar electric for around $25-$35,000 on the average $150,000 house . The solar install cost added to your Mortgage would be nothing compared to the electric bills and then your heat if you go all electric is FREE . I plan to do the Solar on my house in the next 5 years and although I will keep my gas heat I will run a heatpump most of the time for heat and only run the gas when its under 35*.

Rick

 

[sparky1562]

I don't see how you can install solar that cheap? Would like to hear more on that. Last time I checked for the house it would be closer to $ 80K? We looked at putting in a hospital wing as a green thing (political) and even with all the grants and incentives, 30 KW was $ 125K IIRC.

On the wells, I have 4 300 ft wells, cost a total of $ 6000 to have them drilled. Don't know why it would cost $ 10K per well? I have 15 acres, but went vertical as I did not want to mess up my hay field. Horizontal might have been cheaper, but more disruptive.

By the way, I grew up in Louvol.

Your an Air medic that builds houses?

 

[rickairmedic]

Sparky the main reason for the price differance on the wells is most of these homes are in the Highlands ( you should remember that area if you grew up here ) and they are built on top of rock lots and lots of rock so digging the wells gets quite expensive . I am an airmedic that does Heating and Air . I drove a retired ambulance for several years as a service truck and all the guys in the supply houses dubbed me the airmedic . The name stuck and was the name I gave my company when I opened it ( Airmedic Mechanical heating and airconditioning ) . I also have used it as a screen name ever since I started playing on these silly puters as it is usually not taken .

Rick


Rick

 

[russlaferrera]

I have a geothermal heat pump since 1996. It was professionally installed. IMO a good DYI can install the unit (furnace). The wells way to deep for anyone but a pro well digger. Unless you have a deep body of water or place wells the unit will not work properly.

I like the idea of no outside unit for the A/C nice and quite. The difference in my electric bills was $3 per month Granted The house had a very efficient unit to start with... but $3 ! I was disappointed somewhat.

 

[rsanter]

we have a GSHP system where I work that has both the horizontal and verticle loops so we can do compairative testing for efficiency between them

if you have access to a trencher or back hoe then I would have a pro do the install and tell them that you will take care of the trenching if they just mark where they want it

bob

 

[HoosierBuddy]

I have had requests about them but after explaining the costs to most customers they are quite happy to go with a high efficeincy dual fuel system for about half the cost and still have darn near the same efficeincy of the geo system.
Rick

Rick,

Hasn't this been a change in the last 10 years or so? Haven't the air source heat pumps become a lot more efficient, eliminating most of the advantage of a ground source heat pump?

Also...on the solar power...

It seems to me the only way to go would be an on-grid solar plant tied to the power company through net-metering. That eliminates the need for any power storage. You just over produce in the day and spin your meter backwards so you can draw from the grid off peak at night. I know my power company will allow a homeowner to do this for up to 10KW. There's a bill in the Indiana General Assembly to increase that dramatically. I don't think anyone hardly is taking advantage of it yet...but it would be nice!

You'd still pay a power bill based on your monthly customer charge plus any net power you took off the grid. I think you carry a surplus into the next month, but you don't get a cash credit. Maybe they'll change that in the law too.

Phil

 

[rickairmedic]

Phil yes for the most part the air based systems are catching up with Geo and if you tie a very high efficiency heat Pump to a 95-96% gas or propane furnace it gets even better . With this system you get peak efficiency of both types of heating . I would agree yes that on Grid solar is a better way to go allowing you to draw from the grid if needed and not having to have as large a storage bank for storing excess energy.

Rick

 

[mike944]

It's way more than just the equipment efficiency. The efficiency of just the equipment itself is very similar. With a similar input temperature, and similar output temperature the efficiency is similar. However, installed efficiency varies a lot.

By far the biggest efficiency factor in the mathematical formula for both systems is "delta T" also known as temperature difference. ALL heat pump systems work best (most efficiently) with small delta T between indoor, and "source" temperature. The "source" temperature of a ground-based geothermal system is relatively constant. the "source" temperature of an air-based system is dependent on the outdoor air temperature which can vary a lot.

Air-based systems work best in moderate climates. The efficiency drops dramatically when there is a large temperature difference between indoor and outdoor air temperature. In moderate climates that is not frequent, and you live with the low efficiency, because it's only temporary, and it averages out.

Ground-based systems are more efficient at extreme outdoor temperatures, because the temperature difference is always between the underground temperature and the indoor, which is fairly constant.

If you're trying to heat you house to 70F, an air-based system is going to be more efficient when the outdoor temperature is 55. But, when the outdoor temperature is 10F (and the underground temperature is 45F) the ground-based system is WAY more efficient. in fact, the air-based system may need to turn on a supplimental electric coil (Ouch$$$) at those temperatures.

In south carolina for example, you might want an air-source system. in North Dakota, you'd want a ground-source system.

 

[thammel]

Mike,

Clearly, the 55F constant ground temp is much better than 10F air in the winter and much better than 95F in the summer. I live in Maryland which is marginal in the winter and gets really hot in the summer. I know geothermal is best, but the initial installation cost is what makes such a long payback period, that's why I started this thread. I've read about some very much improved air-air heat pumps recently and will start getting quotes on all. ONe ting for sure - I don't think electric back up heat makes any sense for the heat pump, since I have propane.

My house has 2 systems, a propane forced air sustem with AC for the 1st floor and a heap pump in the attic for the second floor (home built in 2000). Interesting that even in 2000 they used electric back up heat for the heat pump. I guess it was easier to run this instead of the gas line to the attic and there may also be a safety issue.

Tom

 

[rickairmedic]

Tom look into Dual Fuel systems ( what everybody is calling Hybrid Heat now ) . I have been doing these systems for a long time and they are the way to go . I set them up so that if its above 35* outside and you are calling for heat the heatpump runs if it drops below 35* outside the heat pump shuts off and the gas/propane furnace kicks in.

Rick

 

[walrus]

This company claims to have a heat pump that works in cold climates. A buddy of mine wired up 6 of these units in an office building located at Bangor International Airport. The temps were below 0 and the only heat in an unfinished building were these units and the temps in the building were at the setpoint of 60 degrees.

http://www.gotohallowell.com/

 

[redsky49]

This company claims to have a heat pump that works in cold climates. A buddy of mine wired up 6 of these units in an office building located at Bangor International Airport. The temps were below 0 and the only heat in an unfinished building were these units and the temps in the building were at the setpoint of 60 degrees.

http://www.gotohallowell.com/

This is an interesting product. Most of the stuff on the website is propaganda, but if you search thru the technical stuff, eventually you come to an abstract describing what this system is.

They are employing several novel ideas, including staged compressors, variable refrigerant flow, etc. Review the refrigerant cycle diagram for a graphic representation.

The result of this is that at temperatures above 16 degrees F they are producing far better than standard amounts of heat compared to other heat pumps. Below 16 degrees F, they employ resistance heat, but still manage to capture some productive heat from the heat pump portion of the unit.

I do not have any experience with these units and cannot speak to availability, cost, support or construction. I am not aware of any long term installations. However, the engineering appears sound and may be worth consideration the next time such a product might be appropriate. Be aware that these units are considerably more complex than a typical air source heat pump. It is possible that they may have increased maintenance requirements.

Offered only as an opinion

 

[walrus]

Here's a competitor web site, similar claims are made. I own one of Nyles hot water heat pumps, works great but have no idea about their cold climate heat pump. Both are made in the area which is how I know about them.
http://www.nyletherm.com/spaceheating.htm

 

[jwith68]

The Hallowell and other low temp "boosted" heat pump products are very interesting. However, properly installed geothermal is pretty much unbeatable for efficiency. Most comparisons that make non-boosted air source heat pumps look almost as good as geothermal are not using the most efficient geothermal units (ie, WaterFurnace Envision series) in their comparison.

Rick, 35° is a very reasonable switchover point for a dual-fuel system, but keep in mind that you are in Kentucky. Much north of there, even into central MO, IL, and IN you might go weeks during the winter without ever getting above 35°, getting no benefit from your heat pump at all.

I am shocked at the cost of bore holes for some areas compared to central MO. I have seen others state costs like $10k per 300' hole, like Rick. That is pure insanity for geothermal bores. Here, I could have any one of 3 or 4 drillers come in, drill a 400' water well, case it 200', install a 1-1/2 hp pump, pipe it to the house, install a 60 gallon pressure tank, controls, and all wiring, and not be to $10k yet! And yes, they will be in limestone before they get down 10' most places.

The going rate for vertical geothermal loops here is $1500 - $1600 per installed ton. Local practice is to drill one 150' hole per ton, so for 6 tons of capacity, I would get six 150' bore holes, with HDPE loops installed and grouted, all header connected, heat sealed connections, and the headers trenched to the house and run into the basement, all loops pressure tested, flushed, purged, and filled with 30% PG, for about $9000.

I've been doing a lot of research into geothermal, as we are looking to build a new home. We have at least 3 HVAC contractors and 2 well drillers within 35 miles that have been doing geothermal heat pumps for 20 years or more, so that helps.

Also, for those of us thinking about geothermal, osama obama's stimulus package just did something really good for us. There was an existing tax credit for 30% of the cost of an Energy Star compliant geothermal heat pump system, capped at $2000. The stimulus bill signed into law on 2/17/2009 removed the cap for any system installed after 12/31/2008 - so its a straight 30% tax credit (NOT deduction) for the entire cost of the system. Therefor, a $20k geothermal system would in effect cost $14k. More details here:

http://www.dsireusa.org/library/inc...US37F&State=federal&currentpageid=1&ee=1&re=1

 

[BooUrns!]

Must be nice. I've seen geothermal loops priced around 10K up here aswell. I think some of the geothermal training programs have set that price as a benchmark as I know of other companies that are more competitive in the same market. It's a newer technology in residential applications up here and most new home builders don't like the sticker shock. These builders have no interest in long term paybacks. We need some sort of financial incentive directed at geothermal to get the technology up to the forefront.

 

[Ezzie]

We need some sort of financial incentive directed at geothermal to get the technology up to the forefront.

Yes, it seems like the Canadian Gov't is big on solar & wind based alternative energy systems but tend to ignore geothermal.

 

[willysman]

There's a couple other things worth considering. I put a water-to-water HP in my house so I could have in-floor heat and...you guessed it...A/C in the garage!

I would suggest that if you have some acreage and the right soil conditions, that there are things beyond just energy savings worth considering. The ultimate flexibility of a well-field to put the load where you want it is beneficial. For out-buildings, simply tap into the wellfield or tap into the hot/chilled water side of an existing heat pump.

I live in MN, where it gets very cold and also very hot/humid. I can put coveralls on in the winter, but there's no solving humid misery.

One more idea. We've designed systems that utilize stormwater retention ponds, stock ponds, sloughs, etc. that work quite well. If you have, or can create a properly sized one, that makes a good place to sink a raft of slinky loops. Solves the well-drilling problem also.

But who are we kidding. Saving $20/month is nice. But A/C in the garage without a bunch of condensing units grinding away outside? That's cool...

 

[mcanuel]

i will be getting geothermal this spring. my house is 1200sqft per floor, 1 basement and 1 upstairs. i have had 2 contractors size out units. i will be going with a 4 ton r series unit from nordic geothermal out of eastern canada. my loops will consist of 4 500ft ditches with close to 4000ft of slinky coils 11ft down at 11ft center spacing on ditches. my current gas bill per year for the last 5 years has gone from 1600 up to currently 2000. canada grants are giving me 5000 for installing the system, my costs are close to 15,000 all installed. the heat pump is 6200, the pump pack 1200, the pipe is 1300 and install was around 2000, i have a next door negihbor with a jd 330lc that owes me a favour so ditching is free. i have budgeted for overcosts. my roi after my grant if i pay 15,000 will be only 5 years assuming gas doesnt go up or down, and so far gas has gone up about 15% a year since i moved in.

 

[jkeyser14]

I just had a 3-ton system put in my house last month with vertical loops. $28k which included all new ductwork ($6k) and a desuperheater for hot water ($3k). The vertical loops cost ~$6k, so you could at least save some of that amount by trenching for a horizontal loop and laying the pipe yourself. Let a contractor fuse the HDPE together because it requires special tools. You can also install the unit yourself if you really wanted to, but you need a contractor to capture your old refrigerant, pressure test, flush, and fill your geothermal loops, etc. The tradeoff would obviously be time. It took 4 days of two professionals working to install the loop and roughly another 4 days to put in the new furnace, test, flush, pressurize the loops, wire the backup heater, etc. The ductwork was another few days on top of that for me, so the whole process was a bit over two weeks. Also, if you have a professional do it there's a 30% federal tax credit this year.

Here's a link to my install:
http://forum.geoexchange.org/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1591

 

[Flathead Youngin']

old thread but a good one for info......i'm about 90% sure i'm going with a closed loop geothermal unit for our new build

thanks for posting a link to your install! good stuff

 

[RossABQ]

old thread but a good one for info......i'm about 90% sure i'm going with a closed loop geothermal unit for our new build

thanks for posting a link to your install! good stuff

Hey Youngin, I just did an investigation into putting a very large geo install near Dayton, the big problem was hitting the acquifer. (That and the rock that is everywhere) The enviro folks aren't keen on antifreeze loops being dipped into the city's drinking water, no matter how tight you think the piping is. I for one would not want to be in the newspaper as the guy who put a bunch of antifreeze into the city water supply! If you went horizontal you could minimize the possibility, but then there's the rock again...

 

[wuboring]

I own a drill and put geothermal loops in every day..

You can trench them in with a backhoe to save money, but if you get someone with a boring machine you can drill them in horizontally 30+ feet deep and it will greatly help your efficiency.

Setting the furnace, connecting the ductwork, and wiring up the T-stat is very similar to any modern day high efficiency gas furnace, but the loop has to be "Flushed" with a special appliance called a "flush cart" to get all the air out of it, and fusing the pipes together properly can make or break the system.

Im putting up a 54x83 building right now that will have geo thermal in floor heat, its pretty easy if you do it every day, but so is brain surgery if you do that every day.

 

[vintage56]

Love my gshp, and havent had any of the issues cited earlier with Waterfurnace units. Next time, though, I'd go Climatemaster since they're manufactured closer to me.

I'd never condition w/ anything else here (other than 'prototype' solar stuff.)

seems to me some of the drilling costs around the country are way inflated. we even have nat gas pockets to contend w/ here, and rigs have to be outfitted w/ blowout gear.. even still street price is only about $4-6/ft -vertical. I got mine drilled (3-250' wells) for $1.20 on a special deal. Ordinarily, I could get a bore for less than $3/ft. bear in mind this is not cased like a water well. thermally conductive grout has to be effectively pumped back down the hole to transmit the heat from the pipe to the earth. a bore test can be performed to ensure proper temperature differential, and yes, there are geologic formations that do preclude geo efficiency is some areas .

If I lived in these areas citing $10k per hole, I'd be looking EXTREMELY seriously at the entepreneurial opportunity of geo well boring.

JML