Rusted water shut off valves

[RH2]

I have all copper plumbing in my basement and it has been there for a while. As a result, many of the water shutoff valves are corroded and stuck open. It hasn't been an issue, but I'd like to deal with it before it is an issue (i.e. I need to shut off the water quick!).

What would be the best way to fix these stuck valves so that I can turn them again? Could I use a torch to heat them? Should I cut them out and put a Sharkbite valve in place (Sweating copper is not an option!).

For reference, the valves are the old style metal circle like you would see on a hose bib outside.

Thanks,
Robert

 

[rsanter]

Can you turn the water off. Take the valve apart. Clean it and reassemble?

Bob

 

[slip knot]

I'd pass on the sharkbites. If you cant handle sweating copper just hire someone who can.

 

[RH2]

No, I can't shut them off. They have probably been left open since the house was built in the 70's and never needed to be shut off. I would like to be able to shut them off in case I ever needed to.

 

[aandpdan]

Replace them, and not with sharkbites. Get a ball valve, they close in 1/4 turn.

If you can't shut the water off your municipal water department can. There is a gate valve in the line to the house for just such a purpose.

 

[Leaflessshadetree]

Soak them with penetrating oil for a few days (maybe weeks). I had one that I just resorted to coating with grease. Work them open and closed even if they will only turn a little at a time. Heat will probably destroy the seals. Be prepared to shut the water off (should be easy after you get the first one done) and be prepared to rebuild or replace the valves. They may develop leaks at the stem, sometimes simply loosening and retightening the packing nut will fix them. If not you can repack. If the valve doesn't close completely you can replace seals and redo the seats.
I do agree with the other guys that replacing with new ball valves might be the best solution. Sweating copper isn't a difficult skill to learn.

 

[justme-]

Rsanter meant turn the main off and disassemble the valves. I have to do that at my parents house currently. Doing 1 valve at a time. If your valves are gate valves replace them - gate valves don't shut completely. My house (100yrs old) has/had some gates in our water lines. Went to shut the main to the 2nd floor and found out it was a gate which promptly snapped when I tried to reopen it. Needed a quick fix so I put in a Sharkbite ball valve. I keep several sharkbite things in my plumbing supplies box for emergency (pipe burst at 3am is solved much quicker with a sharkbite until morning.)

 

[rob1200]

I don't have any advice for replacing them, but here's a trick once the new shut off valve is installed:

Open it fully then close it a quarter turn, or even one eighth of a turn. You should still get full water pressure/flow, but you will then be able to turn it both ways if it gets stuck again. A sticking valve is much easier to work loose if you can turn it both ways.

 

[wosh]

Just keeping soaking these things down with the juice. They are completely rebuild able if they won't hold back the water or leak out the packing. Soak them clean them with steal wool. And if course open them all the way up and go back in a 1/4 turn may keep it from leaking.

 

[cdestuck]

Rip those crappie things out and replace with ball valves. If you need to do it with shark bites that's ok but would prefer sweat.

 

[thewatusi]

Why isn't solder an option? Watch some videos online, buy a bag of 90°s, and pratice on a scrap piece of pipe.

You'll be able to teach yourself in less than 30 mins.

Then borrow a water box key or have the water co. shut the water off and you can replace the main shut off with a ball valve.

After that one is done you can slowly tackle the rest at your own pace.

 

[mygarageone]

He can also use threaded valves , then used a male x compression ftg to connect to the copper .
Use pipe dope on the compression parts which also to help liberate for a tight connection and help prevent corrosion.

 

[mygarageone]

Why isn't solder an option? Watch some videos online, buy a bag of 90°s, and pratice on a scrap piece of pipe.

You'll be able to teach yourself in less than 30 mins.

Then borrow a water box key or have the water co. shut the water off and you can replace the main shut off with a ball valve.

After that one is done you can slowly tackle the rest at your own pace.

Great idea , If copper ftg's weren't prices like Gold now days.

 

[mygarageone]

If nothing else at least make sure your main shut off valve works or is replaced.

 

[johninct]

DO NOT touch those stuck valves!!!! You are looking for trouble because they will leak if you mess with them.

 

[Rookie2]

once you start to attack the work be prepared to replace the valve. seals/gaskets are available but if you rebuild be prepared to remove the corroded/broken center screw on the stop gasket, anything that old had brass center screws (the head usually falls off). Then if you decide to use a 1/4 turn sharkbite, it will be too short once you cut the old valve out ( if your lucky enough to move the attached copper plumbing. I had to resort to a threaded 1/4 turn and used male pipe sharkbites to get more length and ease of assembly and so as not to remove the fastened copper runs . Buy a sharkbite release tool !

 

[gungatim]

as said here before, I would cut em all out and replace with ball valves. or take em apart and rebuild them.

but some advice I see has not been posted yet: whatever you do, water valves are supposed to be opened and closed at least 1x per year to keep this from happening. So every year on your birthday or anniversary or something, change your smoke detector batteries and go through the house (toilet, sinks, basement, etc.) and work the valves. you won't run into this again. This was told to me by an old plumbing contractor so it must be true!

 

[Chukster]

DO NOT touch those stuck valves!!!! You are looking for trouble because they will leak if you mess with them.

Exactly the reason to replace them with ball valves; there have been times I've had to do plumbing in my crawlspace, and every chance I get I'll either replace a regular valve with a ball valve, or add a new ball valve so I can shut off another portion of the house. You'll thank yourself the first time & every time after that.

Helps that my father-in-law, my wife, and her two brothers are Chemical Engineers; they all admit it's just glorified plumbing.

 

[Highbeam]

Ball valves, when open, do not restrict flow. Gate valves, even when open, are a restriction. This in addition to the hokey threaded stem setup.

So yes, use ball valves for everything.

 

[RH2]

Thanks for all of the tips. Thankfully, I can get the valve before the water meter turned off. That's a start!

 

[pl_silverado]

I just ran into this myself. Both valves, before and after the meter on my main were shot. Welded up a curb stop key and replaced both gate valves with sweat on full port ball valves. I suggest you do the same, as it will save a lot of grief in the future.

 

[RECox286]

Believe every thing that all the posters said about trying to rebuild

those old valves. I've done a lot of that kind of work over the last

30 years of draining and recommissioning houses for the winter months.

We have fairly clean water here, but the chemicals the towns have to

put into the water take a toll on the parts. Believe everything negative

said about Sharkbite connections; they will be ok for a while, but when

the O-rings degrade, they will leak. Believe the posters who advise you

to replace those old valves with a ball valve soldered in the original's

place. The ball valve will cost about the same as a wheel valve (washered)

but will out last the wheel valve in most cases, and continue to do its' job

long after the wheel valve has degraded interior parts again.

In the end, either learn to sweat a joint, or figure it will pay you to hire

a real plumber. And that's the truth. BTW: it's not a hard skill to master,

but you need the correct equipment to make it go easy, and a bit of practice.

Uncle Bob

 

[CT2012]

This.

Replace 'em, without question.

DO NOT touch those stuck valves!!!! You are looking for trouble because they will leak if you mess with them.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

If you or someone else does replace the valves by sweating in new ones, maintain a very close fire watch for several hours afterwards. If the work is done in a crawlspace, be prepared to crawl in there several times to verify nothing has begun to smolder.

Charles

 

[Scott r c]

Ball valves, when open, do not restrict flow. Gate valves, even when open, are a restriction. This in addition to the hokey threaded stem setup.

So yes, use ball valves for everything.

That's half true, only some ball valves are "full port".

 

[The Cobbler]

even ball valves should be exercised. When I read my water meter 3 times per year I exercise the ball valve at the main & water heater a couple of times.

 

[mygarageone]

as said here before, I would cut em all out and replace with ball valves. or take em apart and rebuild them.

but some advice I see has not been posted yet: whatever you do, water valves are supposed to be opened and closed at least 1x per year to keep this from happening. So every year on your birthday or anniversary or something, change your smoke detector batteries and go through the house (toilet, sinks, basement, etc.) and work the valves. you won't run into this again. This was told to me by an old plumbing contractor so it must be true!

No offense to the old plumber but he has not been around quality ball valves much.
A decent ball valve has a stainless steel ball , nylon packing around the ball . I have yet to see one seized up even in some really hard water conditions.
The old style gate / globe valves had a tunnel where the stem was and it would collect all kind of **** from the water , there by seizing it up. Ball valves don't have that issue.
So opening and closing them once a yr is really a waste of time.

 

[kaffine]

No offense to the old plumber but he has not been around quality ball valves much.
A decent ball valve has a stainless steel ball , nylon packing around the ball . I have yet to see one seized up even in some really hard water conditions.
The old style gate / globe valves had a tunnel where the stem was and it would collect all kind of **** from the water , there by seizing it up. Ball valves don't have that issue.
So opening and closing them once a yr is really a waste of time.
About the only place ball valves should never be used is in a steam system , never ever .

Why can't you use ball valves in a steam system?

 

[gungatim]

maybe because the heat of steam is bad for the nylon packing? I assume you're right about not needing to work ball valves, I was speaking for regular gate valves, although my house has mostly ball valves in the basement except a few I put in when I replumbed for filters and softeners, but I do them all anyway because I shut off the outside lines in winter and shut off the main, post filter, and water heater every couple months anyway when I change filters...toilets and sinks I work at least once a year...

 

[mygarageone]

I am wrong about ball valves with steam , you can use them but they are designed for steam systems.
I was taught yrs ago all you could use in steam systems was a gate valve , things have changed.

 

[justme-]

First - no need to buy the shark bite removal tool... use an open end wrench. The tool is a molded piece of plastic shaped like an open end wrench used to press in on the plastic release rings. Been there - even curved jaw pliers will work in a pinch once you get the hang of it.

As to sweating - yeah it's easy under ideal circumstances, but any water in the line near where you're trying to sweat and it could take hours (2 hours to sweat a sillcock because the shutoff valve was leaking a tiny amount.) Stuffing a small piece of bread into the pipes can help, but may not dissolve completely before blocking water flow. There is nothing wrong with Sharkbite style fittings over sweating.

Also - unless you have ancient valves in your basement the sharkbite replacement ball valves will likely be longer, not shorter, than the valve you're cutting out. I've done several of them. Only one gave me any trouble and it was from the pipe arrangement not the valve length. Pipes were a 3 dimensional letter F close to the rafters with feed in the bottom and outputs (with valves) on the arms. I had to change both valves but to get the new ones in the space I had to cut the leg and use a shark joiner (**** connector in essence).

Also when using a torch in tight space pick up a carbon heat pad from the plumbing department to back the pipe with. Otay sells one cheap.

 

[n8n]

I have tried rebuilding old stop valves before, but with mixed results. One of them the bonnet actually cracked when I removed it (had to do so, the washer was gone) in retrospect I unless a simple repack will fix it up I would plan on replacing with a new ball valve; in the long run that's a better plan.

If you can't solder copper pipe, now is an excellent opportunity to learn. Use a fire blanket where the pipe is close to wood framing; they're not expensive.

 

[sberry]

If I was going to repair a valve would be having a back up plan for replacement. You never know how it ends up with used parts.

 

[Costner]

No offense to the old plumber but he has not been around quality ball valves much.
A decent ball valve has a stainless steel ball , nylon packing around the ball . I have yet to see one seized up even in some really hard water conditions.
[...] So opening and closing them once a yr is really a waste of time.

I have two ball valves on either side of my anti-siphon device for the irrigation system, and I can tell you after letting them sit in a fixed position all summer when it comes time to shut the system down, those valves are HARD to turn. They have those little "T" handles, and I've had to use a closed end wrench on them to get them free a couple of times. If I come back a week or so later there is never an issue and the valves are easy to open/close, but I imagine if I left them in one position for a few years this would be quite a task.

Now in this case it is likely the fact they are exposed to the elements that is the core issue here, because rain can probably start rusting the handle to the valve making the process more difficult. However I did see a ball valve in a home once which I was unable to turn all the way off - even closing it as far as I could would still allow a trickle of water to leak past... which made soldering somewhat challenging.

Thus, exercising the valves is probably a good idea. If any sediment or scale happens to catch inside the valve, this is one way to help break it up and flush it out before it results in corrosion which could result in future problems.

However - just like people are supposed to replace their washing machine hoses every few years, we all know very few people will ever take the time to do this, and most people will never be impacted in any way.