Looks just like mine Morgan Aurora no. 4!
Can anyone identify this vise
- Thread starter sbosecker
- Start date
Looks just like mine Morgan Aurora no. 4!
wild cowboy
Banned
yeah, that feller way up in post #2 had it pegged as a Morgan (or a Morgan copy)
Yeah and then you shamed it by accusing it of being "furrin"
I could see a USA made copy of a Morgan by one of the trade schools like that Michigan Parker copy but I have never seen a foreign copy of a USA machinists vise. Maybe a Japanese copy would be possible.
wild cowboy
Banned
Yeah, and I have never seen a USA machinist's vise that the jaws were not precisely a standard width, such as 3.5", 4", 5", 6", 8", etc. unless the sides of the jaws were ground off by some neanderthal, but the OP's vise does not look to have ever been ground on.
Yea the jaw width is unusual. I wondered the same, were the sides ground down? Doesn't look like it to me either. When Drivesitar finds his Standard vise hopefully he can take measurements of the jaw width.
I actually emailed Morgan a few hours ago to see if they have any info on the Standard vise.
Another example of the 4 Standard Vise is posted on The Vises of Garage Journal thread on page 584.
This one doesn't swivel.
It was posted on a Craigslist ad in Baltimore, MD.
Based on these 3 examples, it would seem there was national distribution for this vise brand. We've got one on the west coast, this one on the east coast & my example that seems to be from North Dakota.
Scott
This one doesn't swivel.
It was posted on a Craigslist ad in Baltimore, MD.
Based on these 3 examples, it would seem there was national distribution for this vise brand. We've got one on the west coast, this one on the east coast & my example that seems to be from North Dakota.
Scott
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Today I've been working on removing the Removable Jaws from this vise. It has been unpleasant work.
I stuck the Dynamic Jaw in a vise and attempted to remove the mangled slotted screws with a screwdriver. No joy.
I got out a hand impact tool and managed to remove one screw. The remaining screw in the Dynamic Jaw didn't have enough of a slot to really get a purchase. It was also so deformed that the edges were biting into the Removable Jaw. I used a very small cold chisel to make slot that I thought I could work with and then tried the hand impact tool again. Nothing.
At this point I got out a hand drill and some reverse twist drill bits. I hit the center of the screw with a center punch and then started drilling with a small diameter bit until I had gone the length of the screw. Then I started upsizing the bits. I was pretty disappointed that the screw didn't break free. The good news was enough of the head of the screw was removed that I could chip it off with the cold chisel and then I was able to get the Removable Jaw off. I now had a hollowed out screw to remove. I took a piece of steel rod that fit pretty close into the hole I had made in the screw and got my Vise Grips. I put the rod in the hole and the gripped the affair with the Vise Grips. This allowed me to get what was left of the screw out.
Once the Removable Jaws were off, I think I could see what part of the problem was. The screw I got out intact appears to have a much different countersink angle than the Removable Jaw has. The edge of the screw head , when screwed in fully, is biting into the sides of the Removable Jaw hole because the countersink angle is so different.
For the remaining two screws I am wondering if I should just mig weld a nut to the top of each of the screws and wrench them out. That looks like it should work.
The distance between the two 5/16-18 holes in the Removable Jaw looks to be 2-1/4 inches between centers. Does that match the spacing in the 4-inch Morgan Removable Jaw? Does the Morgan Removable Jaw have a very "vertical" countersink as opposed to the flatter countersink screw in the picture?
Scott
I stuck the Dynamic Jaw in a vise and attempted to remove the mangled slotted screws with a screwdriver. No joy.
I got out a hand impact tool and managed to remove one screw. The remaining screw in the Dynamic Jaw didn't have enough of a slot to really get a purchase. It was also so deformed that the edges were biting into the Removable Jaw. I used a very small cold chisel to make slot that I thought I could work with and then tried the hand impact tool again. Nothing.
At this point I got out a hand drill and some reverse twist drill bits. I hit the center of the screw with a center punch and then started drilling with a small diameter bit until I had gone the length of the screw. Then I started upsizing the bits. I was pretty disappointed that the screw didn't break free. The good news was enough of the head of the screw was removed that I could chip it off with the cold chisel and then I was able to get the Removable Jaw off. I now had a hollowed out screw to remove. I took a piece of steel rod that fit pretty close into the hole I had made in the screw and got my Vise Grips. I put the rod in the hole and the gripped the affair with the Vise Grips. This allowed me to get what was left of the screw out.
Once the Removable Jaws were off, I think I could see what part of the problem was. The screw I got out intact appears to have a much different countersink angle than the Removable Jaw has. The edge of the screw head , when screwed in fully, is biting into the sides of the Removable Jaw hole because the countersink angle is so different.
For the remaining two screws I am wondering if I should just mig weld a nut to the top of each of the screws and wrench them out. That looks like it should work.
The distance between the two 5/16-18 holes in the Removable Jaw looks to be 2-1/4 inches between centers. Does that match the spacing in the 4-inch Morgan Removable Jaw? Does the Morgan Removable Jaw have a very "vertical" countersink as opposed to the flatter countersink screw in the picture?
Scott
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wild cowboy
Banned
PM me your email address and I will send you what I have on the Morgan jaw faces (pdf file)
PS - I would have treated the jaw faces and screws with Kroil for 24 hours before even attempting to remove them!
PS - I would have treated the jaw faces and screws with Kroil for 24 hours before even attempting to remove them!
Provincial
Well-known member
sbosecker, are the jaw faces too hard to file? From the photos, it looks like they could be freshened up by hand if a file will cut them.
Delray
Well-known member
There was a Standard Tool Company in Athol Mass that may have sold vises. It may also have been known as Athol Machine Company.
I measured my Star 4" with a dial caliper and got 2.28. I will not tempt fate by removing those screws however LOL.
Another example of the 4 Standard Vise is posted on The Vises of Garage Journal thread on page 584.
This one doesn't swivel.
It was posted on a Craigslist ad in Baltimore, MD.
Based on these 3 examples, it would seem there was national distribution for this vise brand. We've got one on the west coast, this one on the east coast & my example that seems to be from North Dakota.
Scott
That ledge under the base is interesting as that is an old style feature. Old Morgan Chicago stationary vises did have that feature. That would put this vise as 1929-1947 assuming it is a Morgan.
Provincial,
I don't know. I'll check.
I'm wondering about a source for the jaw insert screws. As posted, I'm pretty sure that the ones I'm finding are not original and are causing some issues. I'm pretty sure I need something like these screws for a Wilton. Note the steep angle of the countersink as opposed to the flatter angle of my surviving screw.
Best regards,
Scott
Delray,
In my internet data mining looking for info on this vise, I came across that company - as well as other "Standard Tool Companies". My recollection - perhaps flawed - is that the biggest problem with the company in Athol was that it seemed to have been in existence in the late 1800's to very early 1900's. That background didn't seem to fit my vise.
Best regards,
Scott
drivesitfar
Well-known member
SB: i haven't forgotten about the Standard vise specs you asked me to get for you off of mine and actually made an attempt to find it yesterday. hopefully i'll have it this weekend. which measurements did you want besides the width of the jaws?
by the way a lot of guys are having issues with trying to buy screws for old vise jaws and if you check the Vise Repair 101 thread i think Nines was just asking for some and was given information from other members.
by the way i like the way you are like a bulldog on the search for the history of this vise. i'm wondering if my Morgan 130 might have the same swivel base as my Standard vise since yours has the 130 on it?
by the way a lot of guys are having issues with trying to buy screws for old vise jaws and if you check the Vise Repair 101 thread i think Nines was just asking for some and was given information from other members.
by the way i like the way you are like a bulldog on the search for the history of this vise. i'm wondering if my Morgan 130 might have the same swivel base as my Standard vise since yours has the 130 on it?
DrivesItFar,
Bulldog... that's so much nicer than what my spouse would say.
"Obsessive"
"...which measurements did you want besides the width of the jaws?"
One additional measurement that might be interesting, since your lead screw protrudes from the slide a bit, would be from the length from the screw handle hub to the other end of the lead screw. I'll see what mine is after you get that.
i'm wondering if my Morgan 130 might have the same swivel base as my Standard vise since yours has the 130 on it?
That's worth checking out!
Thanks for the info on removable jaw screws.
Best regards,
Scott
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Do you really think your lame attempt to shame me into going out into a cold garage in my stockings no less to remove and check out the screws will work?
OK it did
My screws have the steep angles on them just like those replacement screws. Your flatter screw is probably the wrong one.
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wild cowboy
Banned
if your vise is a relabeled Morgan Star model 4 AS, you are in luck since the jaw faces are still available. - if it is a Japanese copy, then they may not fit nice. I would call Milwaukee's Morgan division on Monday and find one the old dudes who are like 70 years old, he will know.
Bluebolt,
Today I got out my MIG welder and worked on the other jaw's inserts.
Pictures attached to this post and the following post.
The condensed version is that this side had the steep countersink screws. Based upon what a PITA it was to get these out, I'm assuming they've been in there for a VERY long time.
In the past - with some old tractors - I've had luck with welding a nut onto a broken off bolt and then used a wrench or impact tool to remove the broken bolt. Those were larger nuts and my technique was more difficult to utilize with smaller nuts.
It should be noted that I really don't know what I'm doing. Please be gentle with any suggestions for improvements in my welding.
The first side the weld failed as I tried to remove the screw. I suspect this was because I really didn't get much of the weld between the nut and the screw. This was due to the proximity of the inner walls of the nut to my welding wire and my incredible lack of experience welding.
The good news is that the weld held long enough for the screw to move a bit. That allowed me to get a pliers on the edges of the screw and remove it.
For the remaining screw I decided to get a good weld on the washer and then try using a pliers on that. This worked pretty well. Due to the heat the washer warps up a bit on the edges and that makes getting a grip on the washer easier.
I don't know if this jaw insert had ever been removed in the 50+ years of its existence. I do know it didn't seem to want to move when I tapped on it with a hammer.
I've applied PB Blaster to the seams and I'm going to let it soak in for quite a while.
Best regards,
Scott
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wild cowboy
Banned
I'm telling you, PB Blaster is not Kroil by a long ways!
also, if you have a torch, even a small handheld mapp gas one, it would work wonders on removing these screws by heating up the jaw face first (then use freeze spray on the screw)
also, if you have a torch, even a small handheld mapp gas one, it would work wonders on removing these screws by heating up the jaw face first (then use freeze spray on the screw)
Wild Cowboy,
I suppose one has to work with what one has.
I don't have a torch and I have no Kroil.
I am trying to learn a little more about torches. Can you recommend a particular brand? ...or, perhaps just as valuable, anything to steer away from?
Best regards,
Scott
At various times this afternoon I went to the shop and tapped on the remaining Jaw Insert with a small hammer. I've heard that this sort of thing might be useful in allowing the penetrating oil to do its work more quickly.
While doing this I noticed that one edge of the Insert protruded just a bit beyond the edge of the vise jaw. This would allow a force to be applied that would be away-from & perpendicular-to the jaw face. It seemed a promising approach so I got a small punch and started tapping.
Nothing seemed to be moving so I decided that Wild Cowboy's thoughts regarding the application of heat might be useful in removing this Jaw Insert. If the Insert expanded a bit, it might allow the tapping to be effective.
I made the short trip to Home Depot and acquired a small propane torch. I came home and cooked the Insert for a while. Then I started tapping again. A small gap started appearing in the seam between the Insert and the Jaw.
Cool.
Once the Insert started moving it was only a few more taps and the Insert was free.
The vise is now completely disassembled. I hope to get it ready for painting soon.
There was a lot of crud on the vise jaw. The picture showing the Insert completely removed is after I had worked on the vise jaw extensively with a wire brush. I had taken a picture of the separated pieces before any cleaning was done but the camera's autofocus found something other than the vise to focus on and that picture was no good.
Scott
While doing this I noticed that one edge of the Insert protruded just a bit beyond the edge of the vise jaw. This would allow a force to be applied that would be away-from & perpendicular-to the jaw face. It seemed a promising approach so I got a small punch and started tapping.
Nothing seemed to be moving so I decided that Wild Cowboy's thoughts regarding the application of heat might be useful in removing this Jaw Insert. If the Insert expanded a bit, it might allow the tapping to be effective.
I made the short trip to Home Depot and acquired a small propane torch. I came home and cooked the Insert for a while. Then I started tapping again. A small gap started appearing in the seam between the Insert and the Jaw.
Cool.
Once the Insert started moving it was only a few more taps and the Insert was free.
The vise is now completely disassembled. I hope to get it ready for painting soon.
There was a lot of crud on the vise jaw. The picture showing the Insert completely removed is after I had worked on the vise jaw extensively with a wire brush. I had taken a picture of the separated pieces before any cleaning was done but the camera's autofocus found something other than the vise to focus on and that picture was no good.
Scott
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drivesitfar
Well-known member
SB: nice work getting the jaws off. i made another attempt to find my Standard vise and came up empty, but i think I've narrowed it down to where it might be hiding now. measurements coming soon (I hope).
Wild Cowboy: nice assist with the propane torch idea.
Wild Cowboy: nice assist with the propane torch idea.
drivesitfar
Well-known member
SB: will do and crossing my fingers i can find it. by the way if you wouldn't mind posting up some of your vise repairs over on the vise repair 101 thread for all of us to enjoy and have an easy way to look up later that would be great. you don't have to do like McB did on his 7 page post, but a few posts with all your issues and fixes might help others and maybe you too later.
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DrivesItFar,
A side note:
The heat from the propane torch caused the "kahaki" paint on the vise to peel extensively. As noted earlier it was already peeling without any heat.
I noticed that inside and on the bottom of the jaw insert I just removed there was black paint and not all crud as I originally thought. When I looked under the static jaw where the paint had peeled there was what appeared to be black paint.
I'm pretty sure my vise was originally painted black - like yours is.
Best regards,
Scott
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DrivesItFar,
I intend to do so when this when it is done.
I don't know if you can help with this but I do have a question regarding the Main Vise Nut...
How much "slop" in the Main Vise Nut dovetail is normal? Mine has a significant amount of movement. The vise nut "tube" can actually touch one side of the wall with the slide out. That side of the nut "tube" has a rubbed area the length of the tube where it has been touching the slide.
Best regards,
Scott
drivesitfar
Well-known member
SB: some slop is not unusual. you don't really want it super tight, but some shims or a little JB weld to add to the size of your vise nut to keep slop to a minimum might not be a bad idea. i think i remember you saying you don't weld, but if you have slop from side to side and you need the base of the vise nut enlarged because it's worn from wear then some weld on that section with the vise nut out of the vise so you can then sand to make a better fit might be the best fix.
how did your vise work before you took it apart? if you were happy with the way it worked and were just cleaning it up then leave it as is. read the posts on the vise repair thread #117-124 of McB's to see how he shimmed up a few different issues.
how did your vise work before you took it apart? if you were happy with the way it worked and were just cleaning it up then leave it as is. read the posts on the vise repair thread #117-124 of McB's to see how he shimmed up a few different issues.
DrivesItFar,
The vise seemed to work fine ...before I took it apart. Ha! However I do remember watching the back of the vise and observing the end of the screw moving around a bit.
I think it would be happier, and maybe work even smoother, if I took some sort of action to remove some "play" in the Vise Nut.
I had seen McB's shimming posts so I have an idea as to what is possible.
Thanks!
Scott
drivesitfar
Well-known member
SB: i found the Standard vise i own this afternoon so i grabbed it with the Morgan 130 and the Morgan Star 4 and took a group shot.
the width of my Standard vise is right at 4 inches and the slide is 15 inches and my screw sticks out about a half inch. it seems to work fine and the old timer i bought it from might have replaced the main screw because he cut original handle off and did a little phillips screw and small tap in the old handle to use it again. if my Star vise wasn't in way better condition i'd use it's screw for the Standard vise because it looks like it would have been the original one.
now looking at the Morgan 130 and my Standard 4 together the swivel bases are almost identical and the Morgan's feet are just a little different shaped.
i still have all 3 sitting on a bench at my house so i'll leave them there for a little while in case you have any other questions.
the width of my Standard vise is right at 4 inches and the slide is 15 inches and my screw sticks out about a half inch. it seems to work fine and the old timer i bought it from might have replaced the main screw because he cut original handle off and did a little phillips screw and small tap in the old handle to use it again. if my Star vise wasn't in way better condition i'd use it's screw for the Standard vise because it looks like it would have been the original one.
now looking at the Morgan 130 and my Standard 4 together the swivel bases are almost identical and the Morgan's feet are just a little different shaped.
i still have all 3 sitting on a bench at my house so i'll leave them there for a little while in case you have any other questions.
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DrivesIt Far,
Sorry I'm a little slow getting back to you on this. I'm sitting in a Starbucks using their internet. My home's internet service died yesterday morning. After several hours with tech support, they've finally decided that it's their equipment that's causing the trouble and not mine. It may be as late as Friday before I'm back on-line.
It is amazing the impact no internet service in the house has on my life.
I think it's interesting that your Standard Vice is exactly 4". The obvious suggestion is that a former owner modified my vise by taking about 1/16" off both sides of the jaws.
Any thoughts as to why someone would do such a thing?
Scott
drivesitfar
Well-known member
Scott: since yours (and my) Standard vises are maybe 70 years old it's hard to say what a prior owner or owners have done to them. i know the handle was cut off of mine and maybe a new screw put in the old one's place.
as far as you missing an 1/8 th off of the width of your jaws who knows. i can tell you i saw old mechanics beat the living **** out of things while the item they were working on was in a nice vise. so how about this theory? you put an item in the vise to grind off a small piece and you just use the edge of the jaw as your stopping point. do it enough times and sure you could easily skin off a bit of the original jaw.
take care and good luck on getting the internet working again. i pulled up to my storage unit tonight to drop off my trailer and power was out so security gate wouldn't open. i never let my trailer sit outside so if power stays out i'll have to put my wife's car in the driveway and tonight is going to be below freezing and i think i'd rather have the trailer out tonight or it will be WAY below freezing in the house later. power, internet, and such wouldn't be an issue if we only lived in a third world country. lucky us.
as far as you missing an 1/8 th off of the width of your jaws who knows. i can tell you i saw old mechanics beat the living **** out of things while the item they were working on was in a nice vise. so how about this theory? you put an item in the vise to grind off a small piece and you just use the edge of the jaw as your stopping point. do it enough times and sure you could easily skin off a bit of the original jaw.
take care and good luck on getting the internet working again. i pulled up to my storage unit tonight to drop off my trailer and power was out so security gate wouldn't open. i never let my trailer sit outside so if power stays out i'll have to put my wife's car in the driveway and tonight is going to be below freezing and i think i'd rather have the trailer out tonight or it will be WAY below freezing in the house later. power, internet, and such wouldn't be an issue if we only lived in a third world country. lucky us.
DrivesItFar,
Indeed: If an internet outage is the worst thing happening to you, life could certainly be worse.
I'm in the library now using their internet service.
I've had a little time to examine your pictures more closely.
The handle hub on your Standard Vise has a different profile than mine. Looking at it end on it seems to have a machined area in the center. Other than that it appears to be a flat surface. Mine has a convex surface. Since I had my screw out of the vise at the moment, I took 4 pictures with a measuring tape in the pictures. Two of the pictures are with a measurement from "end to end" of the screw. The other two are from the base of the handle to the other end of the screw.
I would be most interested in a comparison of the Jaw inserts on the 3 vises you have on display. If any of these inserts match the Standard Vise, I'd probably like to obtain a set and then modify them to match the width of my Standard Vise.
Another interesting comparison would be to remove the base from all three of these vises and see if there are any clues that might help confirm or deny Morgan as the manufacturer of the Standard Vise.
I take it BlueBolt hasn't heard back from Morgan regarding his query.
Best regards,
Scott
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Yes it would be nice to see them the bases removed to see if they have the 130 number like yours.
No I have not heard back from Morgan.
drivesitfar
Well-known member
Scott: i'll try to get some time tonight to take the swivels off the Morgan 130 and the Standard 4 and see what if anything is the same or different. the Morgan Star 4 doesn't have a swivel so nothing to compare on that vise.
from the top the only difference i can see on the Standard 4 and the Morgan 130 is the mounting feet are a little more pointed and less round than the Standard.
the mystery continues, but i'd be either Morgan made the Standard vises or Morgan bought Standard vise company if there was one to buy.
from the top the only difference i can see on the Standard 4 and the Morgan 130 is the mounting feet are a little more pointed and less round than the Standard.
the mystery continues, but i'd be either Morgan made the Standard vises or Morgan bought Standard vise company if there was one to buy.