stealthmagic27
Well-known member
Need to replace this 1948 "Sun Ray" Steam boiler in the new home. Should i tackle this myself? Any recommedations welcome...
Steam boiler DIY Anyone?
- Thread starter stealthmagic27
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LS6 Tommy
Well-known member
anthony666
Well-known member
if it's driving baseboard heaters or rads or something just convert it to a modern hydronic boiler, rads don't care if the heat input is steam or hot water .. you need to re configure the near boiler piping, steam systems only have pumps on the return side of things and they don't have air elimination/expansion tanks etc
also, beware that steam boilers are from the same era as asbestos insulation
also, beware that steam boilers are from the same era as asbestos insulation
Need to replace this 1948 "Sun Ray" Steam boiler in the new home. Should i tackle this myself? Any recommedations welcome...
Yeah, if you have 2 pipe radiators, which means you have a return line, plug up the steam vents on the radiators and convert to hot water boiler.
Steam is usually hotter, so you'd want to make sure you have adequate surface area of radiators to heat your house, most do.
Many old steam heating systems put pipes in the ground or in the slab. They can have a leak that you wouldn't notice for years, convert it to water, you have a big problem.
Also steam heating systems operate at like .5-1psi, a pipe made of of saran wrap could probably contain that, which means any pipes or radiators that aren't doing so well likely spring a leak or burst. If you've got of distance in elevation between the highest radiator and the boiler, you need higher pressure in your hot water system to actually get it up there. You could figure out the distance in elevation between the lowest point on your boiler and the top of your highest radiator, and you need .43 psi per foot of water pressure to reach the top. You could try filling the system with water or pressurized air first.
Much more stable heat with hot water, steam heat like having a million btu heater in your house turn off and on all the time. Keeps the humidity up though which is always nice. Not sure how much though.
As someone who likes to tackle everything, I don't know if I'd try a steam system.
If you upgrade to hot water, you could always pex out new supplies and returns, would give you a good opportunity to put in some zone valves so you can section off whatever part of the house you want. I have a hot water boiler and radiators in my downstairs and basement, I have 5 thermostats for the 1st floor and basement, before I added a second floor, I would only have the heat on for the bedroom at night, kick the bathroom heat on before me or the wife woke up, living room/kitchen area would only be on for the 3-4 hours we were home after work and on the weekends. Basement was scheduled to warm up on sunday's for man cave football time, Don't know how much money it saved, but the satisfaction of the principal behind it was great.
Wife had enough of eating breakfast in the cold so I had to give in. No matter how many times I asked "you really want to heat this entire area up for the 15 minutes in the morning you are in it?" yes every time. Women
DIY a steam boiler? I say maybe, YOU need to do a bunch of research beforehand if you DIY it or hire it out. Go to heatinghelp.com and spend some time reading the steam section of the wall, order Dan Holohan's books on steam heating and read them so you understand what you are getting into.
If you decide to do it start looking for a couple 36" and 48" pipe wrenches to add to your toolbox.
Near boiler piping on a steam boiler is critical for it to work properly and safely, no corners to be cut there at all.
If you decide to do it start looking for a couple 36" and 48" pipe wrenches to add to your toolbox.
Near boiler piping on a steam boiler is critical for it to work properly and safely, no corners to be cut there at all.
JackDiddly
Well-known member
Not without extensive research would I advise anyone to tackle such a project. I second the Dan Holohan Recommendation and would advise the title "the Lost Art of Steam Heating" If you don't know what a Hartford Loop is and can't readily Identify the difference between one or two pipe sytems I would try to find an OLD-Timer who is knowledgeable that could at the very least help you. The operation of steam boilers is a far different animal than regular hydronic and all the parts are different. You can get yourself into trouble ripping out old parts that you are unsure of as some of the old one pipe sytems have complicated vapor traps that I would be very surprised you would be able to replace once removed and discarded.... We have come a long way since the good ol days when Steam was new, but lets not forget how many men lost their lives to a steam boiler explosion! Good Luck!
mygarageone
Well-known member
Unless you know anything about steam , stay away from it. Most almost all home steam systems have no condensate pump , they used a Hartford loop and it was sized based on the boiler water content , a new steam boiler will be a whole lot smaller in water content , which will need some piping changes . There is just way more about steam than any home owner should ever consider period !
Get a proffesonal in there and let them do what they do best.
Get a proffesonal in there and let them do what they do best.
mygarageone
Well-known member
Boiler explosions are very rare now days , that is if the safeties are installed and maintained as required.
And the truth is steam is still a very good heating system and is still used in many large commercial buildings expecialy dry cleaners . Dow chemical uses lots and lots of steam for everything and believe it or not you can still get all those old steam parts , they are plentiful
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Problem is most of the pros who knew anything about steam are dead now.
A WELL informed DIYer may well be able to do a better job then most of the pros out there.
I replaced a twenty something year old steam boiler a few weeks ago, the "pro" who installed it had an undersized single riser with no real header all done out of copper, we redid it properly with 2 1/2" black pipe, two risers to a drop header.
Doing the research will at least give one the knowledge to pick the proper pro to do the work.
mygarageone
Well-known member
Yea you are right about most of them being dead. But there are still guys out there in there 50 's , 60 's. Who know about this stuff . But it would most likely be a commercial Union boiler maker or plumber.
We still have a lot of steam boilers up here , there are no existing shops that have knowledge of this stuff , except me and One other guy and I am slowly getting out of it.
That's 2 of us in a 4 county area. However Mqt has a few Union shops that do commercial steam systems but hey won't work on residential stuff.
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Jim Sperry
Well-known member
Ahh, the pleasures of cracking cast iron fittings to disconnect steam piping! That's what the oversized elles are, or should be. Cast iron.
If it is busted, no reason why you can't disconnect it and set a new one. Watch for asbestos. The guys I know soak any fire-retardant remotely suspect before removal and bagging. Not that I'd, for a minute, advocate removal of asbestos by unlicensed individuals!
Steam supply, gravity condensate return, low pressure relief valve, auto fill, low water cut-off. Elegant system in it's simplicity.
If it is busted, no reason why you can't disconnect it and set a new one. Watch for asbestos. The guys I know soak any fire-retardant remotely suspect before removal and bagging. Not that I'd, for a minute, advocate removal of asbestos by unlicensed individuals!
Steam supply, gravity condensate return, low pressure relief valve, auto fill, low water cut-off. Elegant system in it's simplicity.
Having been here for a while, I'd be reluctant to say that anything can't be DIY'd. That said, and I am a steamfitter, I would not recommend it. Steam is kinda lazy the way it moves, but it carries a great deal of energy. I haven't worked on steam for many years and even with my past training I'd be very very careful around one.
I think if you have the right lay-out pipe wise that Anthony's advise to convert to hot water is the best if you choose to move forward on your own.
Steam is great heat, but as noted there are fewer and fewer systems being done and many of the steamers are timing out.
I think if you have the right lay-out pipe wise that Anthony's advise to convert to hot water is the best if you choose to move forward on your own.
Steam is great heat, but as noted there are fewer and fewer systems being done and many of the steamers are timing out.
mygarageone
Well-known member
No disrespect but just setting a new one is not the right answer.
The new steam boilers use far less water than the old ones and that means a great deal with the retrofit if it has the proper Hartford loop system.
It needs to be changed to match the new boiler water content level.
Gezz , I hope the op doesn't have just anyone do this for him ? If it isn't done correctly , the home owner will blame the system rather than the installer.
I love steam heat but I hate working on the old systems.
The one nice thing about steam , it doesn't care if you have electricity or not it just keeps producing heat. That is if it's set up that way.
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Why are you replacing it?
I have a friend that bought a house almost 25 years ago -- steam heat. He wanted to replace it - and the heating company said why? He still has it -- fired with natural gas.
A properly installed steam system required careful calculations and were works of art when done correctly.
Some boilers can be converted to steam -- but they are designed to be boilers vs steam producers ... it is important to get the best steam generator.
I would call around and ask various heating companies if they work on steam -- I'm sure you will find someone.
I can't believe it would ever be cheaper or better to try and convert -- The temp of the steam is higher and the radiators are smaller -- you will not get the same output at 180 degree water.
My NYC place is steam -- the whole building
I have a friend that bought a house almost 25 years ago -- steam heat. He wanted to replace it - and the heating company said why? He still has it -- fired with natural gas.
A properly installed steam system required careful calculations and were works of art when done correctly.
Some boilers can be converted to steam -- but they are designed to be boilers vs steam producers ... it is important to get the best steam generator.
I would call around and ask various heating companies if they work on steam -- I'm sure you will find someone.
I can't believe it would ever be cheaper or better to try and convert -- The temp of the steam is higher and the radiators are smaller -- you will not get the same output at 180 degree water.
My NYC place is steam -- the whole building
anthony666
Well-known member
apples and oranges
steam has two settings, on and off, & they deliver heat in a completely different fashion than a hydronic system .. a modern boiler is capable of delivering a smooth even constant temperature as needs be, instead of a massive surge of heat that tapers off until the call is triggered again
you're comparing a hot air balloon to a helicopter
James-W
Well-known member
Around where I live there are a lot of older homes that at one time used steam for heat. But most of them, if not all of them, have been converted over to use hot water rather than steam.
I agree with the other members, unless you know what you are doing when it comes to steam heating systems, you can create yourself a lot of problems. Sometimes it is best to just bite the bullet and pay someone who is qualified do the work. I know that for some people it goes against the grain to not do it yourself, but I have to think this is one of the times when it would be best to hire it done.
Good luck to you in whatever you decide to do.
I agree with the other members, unless you know what you are doing when it comes to steam heating systems, you can create yourself a lot of problems. Sometimes it is best to just bite the bullet and pay someone who is qualified do the work. I know that for some people it goes against the grain to not do it yourself, but I have to think this is one of the times when it would be best to hire it done.
Good luck to you in whatever you decide to do.
mygarageone
Well-known member
Actually the on and off issue doesn't matter anymore with the new controls availible
Anthony666. Early steam heat was one pipe -- it uses the force the steam to get to a third floor and the mass of the radiator to smooth out the temps. Later they had two pipe steam for the cold water return .. and to reduce the release of any moisture ... and to guard (a bit more) from running the boiler dry.
They used a slightly different radiator .... If you take a two pipe steam system and try and run 180 water through it (the normal max temp of a modern boiler) you will not get the same Btu's out of the radiators ... on the coldest day this can be an issue. Steam is 20+% hotter.
As I said -- I currently have steam heat in my NYC apartment... and I grew up with a two pipe system.
They used a slightly different radiator .... If you take a two pipe steam system and try and run 180 water through it (the normal max temp of a modern boiler) you will not get the same Btu's out of the radiators ... on the coldest day this can be an issue. Steam is 20+% hotter.
As I said -- I currently have steam heat in my NYC apartment... and I grew up with a two pipe system.
anthony666
Well-known member
thanks for having my back mgo
the point was whether a rad from an old steam system would be big enough to deliver heat with a modern hydronic boiler .. and the simple answer is yes .. i have done dozens of two pipe steam system conversions, i'm sure you have too
anthony666
Well-known member
that would be true if the two systems ran 24/7 .. however they don't .. and no one runs 180 degree water to cast iron rads, you'd hurt people
congratulations
anthony666 -- I'm not trying to be argumentative -- but we have a lot of these conversions in Philadelphia and NewYork .. and a lot of them don't work correctly.
I took Dan H's course almost 20 years ago just to figure out what was going on with a house I was restoring in Philadelphia. I don't have any idea what the OP has in his house but the early steam radiators were designed for steam .. a lost art. And unfortunately -- in an old house the normal fix for cold rooms is to raise the boiler temp.
I took Dan H's course almost 20 years ago just to figure out what was going on with a house I was restoring in Philadelphia. I don't have any idea what the OP has in his house but the early steam radiators were designed for steam .. a lost art. And unfortunately -- in an old house the normal fix for cold rooms is to raise the boiler temp.
2x_Tom
Active member
Typically a single pipe steam system, two pipe steam system and a hydronic system all used the same radiator. This is not the case with every radiator but it is with most. Most radiators will have a taping for a steam vent in the middle, an air vent in the top and one tap in all four corners. You just plugged the holes you weren't using. When you do a conversion you just plug and unplug holes as necessary (a lot easier to say then do).
Sizing is different. You do get more BTUs from the same radiator running steam opposed to hot water that's unarguable. What often saves people is the heat loss of most houses has decreased since the original calculation was done. Insulation has been added to walls, double or triple pane windows have been installed, etc. I've yet to run into a hydronic conversion where the radiators couldn't output enough to heat the room.
You would also have to open up the plug or drill and tap a fitting at the top of the radiator for air elimination.
A conversion always requires re-piping your trunk lines so lines in the slab aren't a worry as they'll almost certainly be abandoned. I wouldn't worry about leaks either, it's not likely that anything will blow out under the water pressure.
Steam is actually nice stable heat when running properly. The people with steam is it has usually been neglected and piping is clogged or improperly changed over the years making it not work as it first did. Don't get me wrong, you can't compare it to having the whole house zoned out with a modern system but it does work well.
I would do just what you said if I converted to hot water. Run a bunch of pex and give myself as many zones as possible. I've never heard someone say they had too many heat zones.
Sizing is different. You do get more BTUs from the same radiator running steam opposed to hot water that's unarguable. What often saves people is the heat loss of most houses has decreased since the original calculation was done. Insulation has been added to walls, double or triple pane windows have been installed, etc. I've yet to run into a hydronic conversion where the radiators couldn't output enough to heat the room.
Most residential steam systems I see don't have any pumps. Usually I only see condensate return tanks if the system is zoned and requires one.
You would also have to open up the plug or drill and tap a fitting at the top of the radiator for air elimination.
A conversion always requires re-piping your trunk lines so lines in the slab aren't a worry as they'll almost certainly be abandoned. I wouldn't worry about leaks either, it's not likely that anything will blow out under the water pressure.
Steam is actually nice stable heat when running properly. The people with steam is it has usually been neglected and piping is clogged or improperly changed over the years making it not work as it first did. Don't get me wrong, you can't compare it to having the whole house zoned out with a modern system but it does work well.
I would do just what you said if I converted to hot water. Run a bunch of pex and give myself as many zones as possible. I've never heard someone say they had too many heat zones.
I've only seen a couple like that, most of them are 24v and go out with the heat. Every once in a while I'll run across a thermopile one but they're rare.
What temperature do you run to cast iron radiators? Mine run at 180 and every system I've ever touched is between 160 and 200. Steam is even hotter then that. You just learn not to touch them after the first time.
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2x_Tom
Active member
Just realized my giant run on post. To the question at hand.
Yes you probably could DIY a steam system. It's going to take a lot of research and learning on your part though. Even if you're not going to DIY I would do the research and educate yourself. You want to know that the guy you hire knows what he is talking about and isn't just going to slap a boiler in there, collect and give you the old tail light warranty.
Yes you probably could DIY a steam system. It's going to take a lot of research and learning on your part though. Even if you're not going to DIY I would do the research and educate yourself. You want to know that the guy you hire knows what he is talking about and isn't just going to slap a boiler in there, collect and give you the old tail light warranty.
anthony666
Well-known member
if it's only rads in a conversion i'll start at a buck forty and go up or down from there .. i never put more than 160 into anything except an indirect tank, i'm in the business of making folk comfortable, not hurting them .. i'd rather have a longer lower temp delivery than a bunch of short furious ones
it also depends on what else i have going on in the install .. i like to have as few mixing valves in a system as humanly possible because they are more trouble than boilers in my experience
OP
stealthmagic27
Well-known member
Wow guys ! I came back after only 16 hours to find all these posts! First off I appreciate the responses and recommendations you guys are the best. I do know what a Hartford loop is, and have done countless reading. I'm very comfortable when it comes to this type of work especially the electrical side of it, not only that, I'll have a buddy at hand who is a master plumber, I wouldnt dare tackle this alone. I gotta take a picture of this beast of a boiler to show you guys.
2x Tom: The insulation addition is a valid point. My experience is with brick and stone houses in the city ..... in many rooms not much can be done to upgrade the insulation.... windows in some cases. I did have to install some supplemental in the kitchen.
This was a very common heating system in the Mid Atlantic states and we had a lot of purpose built radiator manufacturers 100 years ago ... some of the radiators are quite valuable today.
My point is that people still use these systems .. and steam heat is still used. If the system works why go to the cost of changing it to something else. Especially if NG is available.
This was a very common heating system in the Mid Atlantic states and we had a lot of purpose built radiator manufacturers 100 years ago ... some of the radiators are quite valuable today.
My point is that people still use these systems .. and steam heat is still used. If the system works why go to the cost of changing it to something else. Especially if NG is available.
LS6 Tommy
Well-known member
The reason steam is safer than it used to be is because now all the applications you listed are designed, installed, operated and overseen by licensed engineers and operators, not DIY homeowners.
Tommy
mygarageone
Well-known member
I personally don't think any DIYer should be installing heating equipment , but not much can be done about it any more. That's one of the reasons our liability insurance and equipment is expensive equipment gets installed wrong or some one does something stupid and we all pay the price.
Water htrs are a great example , some idiot was working in his bsmt cleaning car parts with gas , not to far from the gas water. He blew himself and his house up.
But of course it was the Water htr manufactors fault because there was no warning on the water about doing stupid things. True story .
At least Michigan won't allow boilers to be installed by anyone but a lic contractor with both a mechanical and a boiler lic
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LS6 Tommy
Well-known member
I"m not against DIY stuff altogether. I would install my own system, but I've been in the HVAC industry for almost 30 years. I wouldn't have a probelm with someone installing their own cooling only system. Other than an electrical fire or the potential asphyxiation hazards, most likely the worst that will happen is his system might not work well or last very long.
The idiot using flammables near his water heater is also why anything with a standing pilot or open ignition system is labeled to advise of the danger of doing "stupid" things now.
Tommy
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warren57
Well-known member
As a licensed steam fitter of 50 years, I wouldn't recommend you do a steam boiler, unless you understand safety controls, how to pipe a Hartford loop, etc.
Do you have a one pipe system or two pipe?
To convert to a hydronic (water) boiler, on a one pipe system, you would have to use the existing pipe as a supply and add a return line. On a two pipe you have both pipes. Not sized great, but usable.
Then, remove the steam control valves, steam traps ad an expansion tank and pump and you are converted.
Either way a lot of work and expertise required.
You can probably hire a company to do it and save a few dollars by doing demo and disposal yourself.
Unfortunately you have about an $8,000-10,000 problem on your hands. Depending on what part of the country you live in.
Contact a local pipefitters (steam fitter) union and ask them if they have any retirees that could help you.
Do you have a one pipe system or two pipe?
To convert to a hydronic (water) boiler, on a one pipe system, you would have to use the existing pipe as a supply and add a return line. On a two pipe you have both pipes. Not sized great, but usable.
Then, remove the steam control valves, steam traps ad an expansion tank and pump and you are converted.
Either way a lot of work and expertise required.
You can probably hire a company to do it and save a few dollars by doing demo and disposal yourself.
Unfortunately you have about an $8,000-10,000 problem on your hands. Depending on what part of the country you live in.
Contact a local pipefitters (steam fitter) union and ask them if they have any retirees that could help you.