Heating/cooling a new house

[C2 Turbo]

Hey guys, we live in KY where weather is not really too extreme. In summer we see few days/weeks of 90+ temp and in winter besides few days of snowing, the temp usually doesn't go below 30's.

Regardless of whether we need these options or not, but I would still like to get things (futuristic/cost effective) done while the house is being built rather than regretting later on.

To start off the discussion, we are going with Geothermal for our built though. The questions are:

Sub-floor heating:

My builder talked me out of heating the garage floors/basement floor while prior to the concrete pour and I was OK with that. Having said that, I am now looking to heat the 1st floor before laying the wood/tiles, so what are my options?

Could this be tied into the Geo unit that will be going in for the rest of the house?

Solar energy:

Shall I be looking into installing or at-least be ready for the future needs?

Thanks

 

[bzinsky]

Hey guys, we live in KY where weather is not really too extreme. In summer we see few days/weeks of 90+ temp and in winter besides few days of snowing, the temp usually doesn't go below 30's.

Regardless of whether we need these options or not, but I would still like to get things (futuristic/cost effective) done while the house is being built rather than regretting later on.

To start off the discussion, we are going with Geothermal for our built though. The questions are:

Sub-floor heating:

My builder talked me out of heating the garage floors/basement floor while prior to the concrete pour and I was OK with that. Having said that, I am now looking to heat the 1st floor before laying the wood/tiles, so what are my options?

Could this be tied into the Geo unit that will be going in for the rest of the house?

Solar energy:

Shall I be looking into installing or at-least be ready for the future needs?

Thanks

I have a short list of things I'm going to be doing when I ever get around to building my own house.

ICF construction, pretty much sound proof, very high r-value, natural disaster proof, and thermal mass

Individual 3/8th's pex runs to every plumbing fixture, depends on your water pressure though, might need 1/2inch for showers/tubs if you don't have good street pressure or are using a well.

Geothermal - you already have that plan seems, not sure what your asking about the first floor, but yes, run it on the first floor, everywhere.

A steel ibeam as your main beam. I look at a lot of old homes/residential buildings. The ones with a steel beam that don't have another rare and specific problem generally are perfectly level and there are no cracks in the walls, sagging floors, etc etc etc.

Cat5/6 outlets in many rooms - because wifi *****

Solar - as for solar, I don't know much about it other than it replaces your roof, but look into solar shingles. Now is the time to do it.

3 or 4 pieces of 2" PVC running from your basement to your garage (if your garage is detached). This allows you to run anything you want easily to and from your garage. When I bought my house, the awesome previous owner ran cat5, compressor lines, water lines, gas line and a 100amp feed into the garage from the basement, love it. Compressed air tools in basement with a compressor in the detached garage is great.

A ventilation fan in the basement, another great addition from my previous owner. I can refinish wood, paint, and smoke cigars in the basement, just click on the vent motor.

Non-lightweight sheetrock. All the contractors use it because nobody knows the difference. Regular weight is just stronger and mass is good.

As a former residential realtor, I saw some really cool room designs. My favorite had to be the master suite that basically was one giant room and the bathroom, closet, bed, were all exposed. Separate door and wall for the toilet.

Monoprice in-wall speakers. Nows the time to do it. Cheap as dirt and sound great. I'd put them everywhere and have your equipment zone them off.

Preselect an area for an entertainment rack, like in the basement. Run all your speaker wires there, and hdmi cables to the wall mount locations of TV's. Use an infared repeater and run that wire along with the HDMI. You could have all your cable boxes, receivers, HTPC, etc down in the basement with nothing but TV's hanging on your walls, combine that with your in-wall speakers, you have a nice setup that would be far more difficult to do after it's built.
edit:almost forgot, you can build your htpc with cable cards inside, you then forgo the need for boxes from the cable company, which as everyone knows are pricey to rent. The problem with this is not everyone can run one computer to all of their TV's with out a lot of work. You could.

Make sure they run 110 volts to the smokes and CO's, not many do this. They interconnect them so that they communicate with each other, a lot of people think they are powered but they are not. This way you don't have to change batteries constantly.

That's all I can think of right now

 

[pseudorealityx]

You need to provide more details about what you're doing with the geothermal; goals; limitations; etc.

 

[C2 Turbo]

I am not a technical person so please be patient.

ICF construction, pretty much sound proof, very high r-value, natural disaster proof, and thermal mass

Frame work is already in the process (starting the second floor) so ICF construction is out of question but would have been nice though

Individual 3/8th's pex runs to every plumbing fixture, depends on your water pressure though, might need 1/2inch for showers/tubs if you don't have good street pressure or are using a well.

So every fixture has it's own pex line? How does it differ from normal and what difference does it make?

Geothermal - you already have that plan seems, not sure what your asking about the first floor, but yes, run it on the first floor, everywhere.

Geo is for the entire house so not sure where the first floor came in from.


Cat5/6 outlets in many rooms - because wifi *****

You bet

Solar - as for solar, I don't know much about it other than it replaces your roof, but look into solar shingles. Now is the time to do it.

Will look into it but from what I have read the technology is still pretty expensive though

3 or 4 pieces of 2" PVC running from your basement to your garage

Great idea

A ventilation fan in the basement,

Another great idea

Non-lightweight sheetrock. All the contractors use it because nobody knows the difference. Regular weight is just stronger and mass is good.

Definitely

Monoprice in-wall speakers. Nows the time to do it. Cheap as dirt and sound great. I'd put them everywhere and have your equipment zone them off.

Great


Preselect an area for an entertainment rack, like in the basement. Run all your speaker wires there, and hdmi cables to the wall mount locations of TV's. Use an infared repeater and run that wire along with the HDMI. You could have all your cable boxes, receivers, HTPC, etc down in the basement with nothing but TV's hanging on your walls, combine that with your in-wall speakers, you have a nice setup that would be far more difficult to do after it's built.
edit:almost forgot, you can build your htpc with cable cards inside, you then forgo the need for boxes from the cable company, which as everyone knows are pricey to rent. The problem with this is not everyone can run one computer to all of their TV's with out a lot of work. You could.

Need help digesting this ^ paragraph (lol). First of all, what the heck is HTPC (I googled it and do have some idea) but would love to be educated here. So is it possible to set up everything in the basement and yet be able to control TV's/dish from different rooms on different floors?

Make sure they run 110 volts to the smokes and CO's, not many do this.
That's all I can think of right now

absolutely and thanks for taking time and helping a member here

You need to provide more details about what you're doing with the geothermal; goals; limitations; etc.

Geothermal will be the primary HVAC to cover the entire 8500 sq ft but I was looking into the radiant heat option for warm floors but I guess I would have to pass on that option as it is ridiculously expensive.

 

[bzinsky]

Pex runs- the standard method of plumbing say a bathroom is to use a 3/4 inch pipe from somewhere around the water heater to the bathroom. Then when it gets to the bathroom, it spreads out into 1/2 inch lines. Each time you turn on hot water and wait for it to come out, you need to expel the cold water first, and then heat up the pipe. When you go to turn the water off, all of that hpt water is still sitting in the pipe cooling down. Not a big deal in the winter with your heat on as the heat is expelled into your house. In the summer, the heat is expelled and your AC system has to cool it down. Essentially your just wasting all that hot water that comes out cold while you wait.

The 3/4 inch line, known as the trunk, is used becaused you need adequate flow rate to the entire bathroom so that when someone flushes the toilet the shower doesnt have a huge pressure drop.

If you have a smaller line going to each fixture, you only need to fill up that small line. There is a lot less water in a 1/2 inch line than a 3/4 inch line, and go to 3/8ths, and your looking at like a cup of water depending on length. The reason nobody has done thin line home runs in the last 100 years is because well it'd be a huge pain in the *** and not very cheap to run 5-7 water lines into 1 bathroom. With pex, its easy, and pex is cheap. A lot of plumbers will say 3/8ths pex is too small and scoff at the idea. Well they've been working their entire careers happy with 1/2 inch, they may not understand the point either. Sort of like an electric panel, they might think your crazy for wanting to undersize your lines. If you ever seen an unrestricted pressureized water line spraying, they can put out a ton of water. It might be a bit small for a shower head if you do not have decent street pressure.

With individual pex runs, you can turn on your 2nd floor shower on the other side of the house from the water heater and get hot water in seconds. Not only is this nice just because you don't have to wait, you dont have to waste all that energy on hot water and the water itself. Feel free to google all this and see what plumbers that are in forefront of their field are doing. Also, unlike most new techniques, any experienced plumber could do the installation easily, getting them to agree with it may be the challenge, if you care.

As far as htpc. Home theatre PC. A lot of people are using them. Its basically just a regular computer that is used just for entertainment purposes. You can tailor it to your needs. You can store movies on the hard drives, you can download movies and play them directly on your TV, music files, etc. Its basically an open pallet to do anything you want. Best of all you can use the tuner cards, and your computer harddrives serve as the harddrives that your regular DVR has. You can control all your TV's independantly, and control your entire speaker system independantly.

It will no doubt take some due diligence on your part, but if you have the hdmi cables, and the infared repeaters ran from TV to entertainment source, which as far as I can tell by looking at mine, is a single 3.5mm cord, you have an open pallet. The speaker wires too of course.

You can buy the hdmi, repeaters, speaker wire, and speakers at monoprice.

I do not have my entire.system setup like this, its what I would do in a new house. I do have my cable box and receiver remotely mounted though for my family room TV. So on my wall is a TV, an a little infared pickup the size of a dime, which leads to another room so I can use the remotes as normal and control the boxes.

I pay $60 a month in cable box rentals, and I would love to ditch them. My only options are multiple computers with cable cards, or spend many weekends wiring them all to a central computer.

Your best bet for these resources is without question avsforum, this is their bread and butter.

 

[JCByrd24]

In KY skip geothermal and put all that money into solar PV panels and the buildings insulation. Heat/cool with heatpumps either mini splits or distributed and if you want radiant use it as to supplement the heat pumps. There is no reason a house in KY with geothermal money being thrown at it shouldn't be net zero, meaning you have no utility bills. Geothemal is a fantastic idea but the payback in a moderate climate like you are talking is nothing compared to PV solar. To get geo to be next zero you still need PV. PV is the only free energy.

I shouldn't have limited this to KY. Most residential projects don't have enough demand to warrant a geothermal system, even here in Maine.

 

[C2 Turbo]

Pex runs- It might be a bit small for a shower head if you do not have decent street pressure.

How can one find out about the street water pressure 'coz I am also looking for rain forest/body jets shower etc

Also, unlike most new techniques, any experienced plumber could do the installation easily, getting them to agree with it may be the challenge, if you care.

Yes I am now looking into this, thanks

As far as htpc. Home theatre PC.

Your best bet for these resources is without question avsforum, this is their bread and butter.

Funny you mentioned that as while googling the HTPC, I stumbled across their website and immediately registered to learn more from them

Thanks for all your help

 

[bzinsky]

I shouldn't have limited this to KY. Most residential projects don't have enough demand to warrant a geothermal system, even here in Maine.

that's if you just factor in energy costs

factor in your comfy feet as long as you live there, and the extra equity in your home. Saying you have all of your floors heated is an impressive item for the home selling stat sheet. I think many people have use for a geothermal system and when you look at all the numbers ala accounting style. Not to mention the most valuable ROI, wife points.

 

[pseudorealityx]

that's if you just factor in energy costs

factor in your comfy feet as long as you live there, and the extra equity in your home. Saying you have all of your floors heated is an impressive item for the home selling stat sheet. I think many people have use for a geothermal system and when you look at all the numbers ala accounting style. Not to mention the most valuable ROI, wife points.

I'm pretty sure he's doing forced air geothermal water to water heat pumps, NOT floor heat based on his posts so far. I could be wrong.

 

[abk241]

"Solar - as for solar, I don't know much about it other than it replaces your roof, but look into solar shingles. Now is the time to do it.

Will look into it but from what I have read the technology is still pretty expensive though"

Check with whatever state agency regulates your power company. Ask them if they offer subsidies for solar power.

 

[bzinsky]

I'm pretty sure he's doing forced air geothermal water to water heat pumps, NOT floor heat based on his posts so far. I could be wrong.

Didn't see this post, I think you're right

Geothermal will be the primary HVAC to cover the entire 8500 sq ft but I was looking into the radiant heat option for warm floors but I guess I would have to pass on that option as it is ridiculously expensive.[/QUOTE]

Geothermal and radiant heat go together like peanut butter and jelly

I also didn't see your house is 8500sq ft, that's a big house, maybe get some other quotes on the floor heat? There are a few ways to do the radiant floor heat. It'd be a shame to pass it up.

Also it sounds like you have some interest in home theatre. If you want any marginally good sound proofing you have it made at if you start it before sheetrocking. Decouple the walls by installing staggered studs or drywalls clips. Use sound board, insulate, etc. Your two goals are to stop sound from penetrating your theatre into the house, and two absorb accoustic transmission so it doesn't bounce off the walls. The best way to do this is to essentially create a room within a room.


Or if you aren't THAT big into home theatre, I highly suggest one of these to install during the project in your main TV watching area.

http://www.monoprice.com/Product?c_id=108&cp_id=10829&cs_id=1082912&p_id=7932&seq=1&format=2

That along with motorized blinds just for the room when your projector is in.

The problem with projectors is the screens take up too much of the wall and although we've come a long way, external light and projectors still don't mix well.

Solution-

Normal people have to stare at this ********* square sitting on their wall all the time. You will have a perfectly normal looking room....... until you hit the power button. Your projector fires up, your 10ft screen rolls down, and your blinds close. It's really not that expensive either. Your biggest investment is your projector. I have a $700 1080p projector, it looks fantastic.

Go for projectors with higher lumens if it's your living room TV. The more lumens the easier it is to see with ambient light in the room. Nobody wants to watch the news in a pitch black dark room.

Also make sure to look at bulb replacement costs, they last a few thousand hours and usually cost $100-$300 to replace, so there is a reocurring cost, but it's a very nominal expense for the luxury of watching a fully motorized 10ft TV.

Oh and you may want to consider a wine cellar, good time to build now. A friend of mine has one with a big tempered glass door, and he spent most of the money on that door, man does it look cool. You need a little AC unit for this, possibly a cheap mini split. I think controlling the humidity level is less relevant than the cooling.

 

[JCByrd24]

I missed the 8500 sq ft too, probably worth doing geo and powering it with solar... unsubscribing... 8500 sq ft house makes me sick and I'm well into the upper middle class.

 

[bzinsky]

I missed the 8500 sq ft too, probably worth doing geo and powering it with solar... unsubscribing... 8500 sq ft house makes me sick and I'm well into the upper middle class.

Good for him, no reason not to help him.

I'd buy an 8500sq ft house and a new s-class if I could afford it.

 

[C2 Turbo]

that's if you just factor in energy costs

factor in your comfy feet as long as you live there, and the extra equity in your home. Saying you have all of your floors heated is an impressive item for the home selling stat sheet.

Radiant heat feels so much better but I have to draw a line somewhere. I am still investigating the cost of the radiant heat and do have some pointers.

NU-Heat: An electric blanket that goes underneath the flooring but the problem is I can't get the brazilon cherry on it which is a bummer.

Water (PEX system): Meeting is scheduled for Monday with another Geothermal guy. He has installed a few Geo water-water PEX system in the floor joists before. He mentioned the house he recently did was around $20,000 for 1800 sq/ft? (not sure if that's reasonable or not)

I'm pretty sure he's doing forced air geothermal water to water heat pumps, NOT floor heat based on his posts so far. I could be wrong.

See the above reply

Geothermal and radiant heat go together like peanut butter and jelly

I also didn't see your house is 8500sq ft, that's a big house, maybe get some other quotes on the floor heat? There are a few ways to do the radiant floor heat. It'd be a shame to pass it up.

Also it sounds like you have some interest in home theatre.

Or if you aren't THAT big into home theatre, I highly suggest one of these to install during the project in your main TV watching area.

http://www.monoprice.com/Product?c_id=108&cp_id=10829&cs_id=1082912&p_id=7932&seq=1&format=2

That along with motorized blinds just for the room when your projector is in.

The problem with projectors is the screens take up too much of the wall and although we've come a long way, external light and projectors still don't mix well.

Solution-

Normal people have to stare at this ********* square sitting on their wall all the time. You will have a perfectly normal looking room....... until you hit the power button. Your projector fires up, your 10ft screen rolls down, and your blinds close. It's really not that expensive either. Your biggest investment is your projector. I have a $700 1080p projector, it looks fantastic.

.

What's making this project so expensive is where I want everything on the ground floor (4300 sq-ft)

We have a family room right besides the kitchen and that's where I plan on installing the entertainment system.

The reason I ask all these questions is where I want to get as much latest technology as I can, in case if we ever have to consider selling the house, at-least it would offer some advanced stuff even though we might not have used them.

I missed the 8500 sq ft too, probably worth doing geo and powering it with solar... unsubscribing... 8500 sq ft house makes me sick and I'm well into the upper middle class.

I want love not hate

Good for him, no reason not to help him.

I'd buy an 8500sq ft house and a new s-class if I could afford it.

Thanks

Rough floor plan attached

 

[pseudorealityx]

Some considerations... take them for whatever it's worth to you.

1) One issue with pure radiant heat/cooling is that there's no air exchange. You don't get any fresh air into the house, except through infiltration. And as you have a large number of restrooms, kitchen hood exhaust, dryer exhaust, etc... you'll be pulling lots of air out of the house, but not providing any conditioned air back into the house. That can make for a somewhat stale house, especially early after construction when there's still quite a few VOC's in the house from the construction materials.

2) Whatever you do, get a fully legit contractor on this. Make sure he's done this stuff before, talk to past customers, etc. At this scale, you're probably looking at some larger contractors who work in commercial, and have a residential side. You want and need that expertise.

3) Assuming you don't live in Alaska, you're going to need some form of cooling, which is going to be forced air, so you'll already have duct work. Geothermal water source heat pumps would be my choice, but I don't design custom luxury homes, and you've got different priorities than me. See also: #1.

 

[CNGsaves]

Whatever you do, absolutely do NOT skimp on ductwork ! It's the lifeblood of heating and cooling. Also AIR SEAL the entire inside of ductwork to eliminate air losses - - there's air-borne sealant they can force through the system when they have all the openings taped shut.

Would be good idea to Update GJ Profile with City / State as once this thread get's spread out, you'll keep getting questions of where you're at.

 

[bzinsky]

Whatever you do, absolutely do NOT skimp on ductwork ! It's the lifeblood of heating and cooling. Also AIR SEAL the entire inside of ductwork to eliminate air losses - - there's air-borne sealant they can force through the system when they have all the openings taped shut.

I second this, during my extensive mini-split research, I realized the whole reason mini-splits perform so well is because they don't have any duct work losses.

Many of the people in the trade know this but do not take the time to do a good job with duct work. We're talking like 20-30% of efficiency lost in the duct work in the average home. Whenever I see a duct leak I just picture dollar bills flying out of it.

 

[pseudorealityx]

I second this, during my extensive mini-split research, I realized the whole reason mini-splits perform so well is because they don't have any duct work losses.

Many of the people in the trade know this but do not take the time to do a good job with duct work. We're talking like 20-30% of efficiency lost in the duct work in the average home. Whenever I see a duct leak I just picture dollar bills flying out of it.

That is not why mini-splits perform well. It's because they are a specialized piece of equipment that has somewhat severe limitations in the MAJORITY of applications.

 

[bzinsky]

That is not why mini-splits perform well. It's because they are a specialized piece of equipment that has somewhat severe limitations in the MAJORITY of applications.

So let me get this straight, they perform well because they are a "specialized piece of a equipment", what on earth does that mean?

And what are these "severe limitations"

 

[CNGsaves]

I'm guessing "severe limitations" on mini-splits is small space solution.

For OP with 8500 sq ft, there shouldn't be any mini splits involved unless the architect / builder didn't plan for proper ductwork space and mini split has to be used as a "fix" for a particular area.

 

[C2 Turbo]

Some considerations... take them for whatever it's worth to you.

1) That can make for a somewhat stale house, especially early after construction when there's still quite a few VOC's in the house from the construction materials.

2) Whatever you do, get a fully legit contractor on this.

3) Geothermal water source heat pumps would be my choice, .

We do have Geo forced air units (7 tons) to take care of the house. It's the Kitchen/breakfast nook/family and 2 bathrooms on the ground floor that I am considering getting the radiant heat for.

I am in a process of measuring the area now to see if adding a Geo Water-air unit be even economical or not. I was quoted approx. $39,000 for 6-7 tons of forced air Geo units and it would be another $7000 to add water unit to the existing quote.

Whatever you do, absolutely do NOT skimp on ductwork !
Would be good idea to Update GJ Profile with City / State as once this thread get's spread out, you'll keep getting questions of where you're at.

Absolutely and Profile updated

For OP with 8500 sq ft, there shouldn't be any mini splits involved .

There aren't any mini splits unless I put one in the garage, which I probably would

Thanks for all your kind suggestions and please keep them rolling in..

 

[Beemer533]

That is not why mini-splits perform well. It's because they are a specialized piece of equipment that has somewhat severe limitations in the MAJORITY of applications.

Not sure what this comment means, or what "severe limitations" you are referring to? Pretty much the rest of the planet uses mini splits with no issues..

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

You need to provide more details about what you're doing with the geothermal; goals; limitations; etc.

What are you using for back up heating?

 

[pseudorealityx]

So let me get this straight, they perform well because they are a "specialized piece of a equipment", what on earth does that mean?

And what are these "severe limitations"

Severe limitations:

1) Lack of external static pressure
2) Lack of filtration
3) Lack of latent cooling capacity

They perform well when used in the right application.

 

[pseudorealityx]

Not sure what this comment means, or what "severe limitations" you are referring to? Pretty much the rest of the planet uses mini splits with no issues..

See above. Also, the acceptable comfort range in the majority of the rest of the world is much larger than Americans' comfort range.

 

[theoldwizard1]

We do have Geo forced air units (7 tons) to take care of the house. It's the Kitchen/breakfast nook/family and 2 bathrooms on the ground floor that I am considering getting the radiant heat for.

I am in a process of measuring the area now to see if adding a Geo Water-air unit be even economical or not. I was quoted approx. $39,000 for 6-7 tons of forced air Geo units and it would be another $7000 to add water unit to the existing quote.

First, you will absolutely love radiant floor heat ! You will be sorry you did not get it for the basement and garage.

Heat pump used as a heat source for radiant in-floor heat are uncommon in the US, but not in the rest of the world ! The best solution for your kitchen would be a air-source mini-split heat pump with a refrigerant to water heat exchanger. Buy a mini-split that is designed to work to low outside temperatures (Mitsubishi Hyper Heat works well to below zero). Not including the in-floor tubing, this should be much less than the $7000 you were quoted, maybe 1/2 !

The downside of in-floor heat is you still need A/C for summer. Plus you will need to zone your forced air system to not pump hot air in that area when the floor is providing the warmth.

Are you going to do your domestic hot water with a heat pump water heater ?

If your HVAC guy hasn't explained all this to you, you need to get a new HVAC contractor !

 

[theoldwizard1]

I assume you are using a heat pump for a couple of reasons.

• Natural gas is not available
• Geothermal heat pumps are very inexpensive to operate.

Most people will have a backup heat plan (propane fireplace) or a generator large enough to run the heat pump, which would also run on LP.

Personally, I would go with the LP fireplace (more than on for a large home) and also use propane for cooking, clothes drying and possibly domestic hot water. These appliance are more efficient running on propane than on electricity.

Buy an LP tank (250 gallon?) and bury it. That way you won't have to look at it.

With those appliance running on propane, a whole house generator is not really required (unless you absolutely can not live without A/C during a power outage). You could easily get by with a 3,000-5,000 watt portable generator (with a propane conversion) wired into your main panel with an interlock kit. The interlock kit is a big savings over any kind of transfer switch.

Again, if your builder hasn't discussed all this to you, he is not doing a good job for you !

 

[C2 Turbo]

First, you will absolutely love radiant floor heat ! You will be sorry you did not get it for the basement and garage.

Are you going to do your domestic hot water with a heat pump water heater ?

!

I am sure, the hot water would be connected to the Geo unit.

Yes I feel bad for not getting the radiant heat for the basement/garage but I have to limit myself somewhere.

Considering we have 3500 square feet of basement and 1800 square feet of garage space, doing radiant heat wouldn't have been cheaper either

I assume you are using a heat pump for a couple of reasons.

• Natural gas is not available
• Geothermal heat pumps are very inexpensive to operate.

Most people will have a backup heat plan (propane fireplace) or a generator large enough to run the heat pump, which would also run on LP.

Personally, I would go with the LP fireplace (more than on for a large home) and also use propane for cooking, clothes drying and possibly domestic hot water. These appliance are more efficient running on propane than on electricity.

Buy an LP tank (250 gallon?) and bury it. That way you won't have to look at it.

With those appliance running on propane, a whole house generator is not really required (unless you absolutely can not live without A/C during a power outage). You could easily get by with a 3,000-5,000 watt portable generator (with a propane conversion) wired into your main panel with an interlock kit. The interlock kit is a big savings over any kind of transfer switch.

Again, if your builder hasn't discussed all this to you, he is not doing a good job for you !

The natural gas is not available so yes we will be burying a Propane tank in the ground (size?) and will be using it for firplace/cooking /out door BBQ but didn't think about the washer/dryer. Would it be cheaper to do the W/D and heating the water on propane?

I am already lined up for a generator but haven't decided on the size yet? Great suggestion about the propane conversion option with the generator and about the interlock kit, have to look that up though.

Funny and surprising that neither my GC nor my electrician have mentioned either of those options and I guess that's the reason why I am here learning from you all.

Many thanks for all these invaluable information

 

[theoldwizard1]

The natural gas is not available so yes we will be burying a Propane tank in the ground (size?) and will be using it for firplace/cooking /out door BBQ but didn't think about the washer/dryer. Would it be cheaper to do the W/D and heating the water on propane?

Obviously a washer does not require propane ! A gas (all NG appliances can be converted to propane for a few dollars) dryer costs a bit more, but you will quickly recover that cost compared to using electricity for clothes drying.

Domestic hot water from a heat pump would cost a lot more to install than a propane water heater. Payback time would be many years. Depending on the number of bathrooms/showers and how far apart they are you might even consider 2 - 30-40 gallon water heaters or one 50-60 gallon and one "on-demand" placed close to the batroom furthest from the primary tank. Less time waiting for the hot water to reach the shower head !

I am already lined up for a generator but haven't decided on the size yet? Great suggestion about the propane conversion option with the generator and about the interlock kit, have to look that up though.

You only need to do this if you are planning on using a "portable" generator. You would need a very LARGE unit for a house your size if you wanted the generator to run the heat pump. With all propane appliances and a propane fireplace, your probably good for winter WITHOUT the heat pump. Could you survive a couple of summer days without A/C ? If yes, then you could get by with something like a Honda EU3000is. Very quiet and it sips fuel.


If you are going with a whole home generator propane is the only solution. Inquire about a automatic transfer switch with "load shedding" capability. Basically, you won't be able to run the well pump when the heat pump is on. When the heat pump shuts down, the well will automatically kick in, but you may be able to downsize with this option.

Better get a 1000 gallon propane tank. Big and ugly, but you can landscape around them or bury it. Fill it in summer when the prices are lower !

Funny and surprising that neither my GC nor my electrician have mentioned either of those options and I guess that's the reason why I am here learning from you all.

I learned a lot here also ! GCs and subs don't typically like to do things that are new/different. Nothing I have mentioned is really "way out there". Most is trading off up front cost versus long term operating costs.

 

[C2 Turbo]

Called one of the local Propane companies and found out, proppane is $2.10 where we live, which by no means is cheap

Called Propane dist and was told the electric companies would be raising their charges in next year or so. I then called the electric comp and was told the same, Propane prices would be getting higher not to mention how expensive and how effective cook tops are for cooking

So does $2.10/G propane sounds reasonable to you all?

Thanks

 

[Randy in Maine]

I am paying $2.50-2.60 a gallon for propane. I use 600 gallons per year. I am OK with that. 0.16 per kw and it is going up. Plus I love my gas kitchen stove.

Everyday I wake up and thank God I don't own an 8500 square foot house, a horse, or a sailboat. I don't want to pay to take care of any of them. Plus I don't want in-laws to never leave.

 

[Silverton34]

I paid $1.48/gal for this winters propane, signed the contract in early July. I heard the winter deliveries reached $4/gal last winter.