To avoid these ads, REGISTER NOW!

code for led lighting micro transformers

I

inphx

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 23, 2012
Messages
1,307
Location
Phoenix/Scottsdale AZ
I am interested in using alot of in cieling LED panels like this in my new accessory house for the garage.

sku_362239_3.jpg



The light assembly is designed to clip into drywall... but what is code for each of the led driver modules? Instead of cans i was thinking to locate a new work box and cover above the cut outs like:

735457b4-1f66-4440-bc3f-173465a912f8_400.jpg


Can I connect to ac, have the module inside the box, and route the low voltage from the box? Thanks in advance for weighing in.
 
Last edited:
To avoid these ads, REGISTER NOW!
4

404

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 23, 2014
Messages
3,463
Location
Mass
That driver module needs free air to cool it. In a box it may overheat and have a shorter life. Perhaps make a bracket that holds the light and module in free open air, and then wire that with a plug to an outlet in the blue box?

Regards,
404
 
OP
I

inphx

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 23, 2012
Messages
1,307
Location
Phoenix/Scottsdale AZ
I am trying out this combo from Lowes

088700942349lg.jpg


088700041905lg.jpg


But i am still woried about electrical code - the way i want to use it the in cieling box would be concealed requiring the clipped in led panel to be removed for access... i think technically that is a no no.
 
2

2nrguy

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 24, 2014
Messages
158
Check out what your code says about LED lights, I'm going to say they arent really going to have a clue because nobody asks. As far as the transformers, they do transfer some heat. Check out what the code is first, you can more than do it online.
 
A

alfredeneuman

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 3, 2011
Messages
4,596
Location
Fullerton, CA
Concealed boxes are a Code violation.

As stated above by 404, it needs FREE AIR and lots of it, for cooling.
If you put it in a box without any ventilation it will, not might, overheat and fail.
 
R

rockwithjason

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 8, 2006
Messages
2,633
Location
Las Vegas
are those fixtures listed by UL or another recognized laboratory? I am betting not. if that is the case then you cannot legally use them unless your AHJ approves them. we run into this a lot here in vegas as casinos and night clubs like to use a lot of funky lights from europe or asia with no listing. as for the power supply, article 410.37b allows for separate mounting of equipment if listed and doesn't require any additional enclosures. the connection to the circuit feeding the unit will have to be enclosed and will have to be an approved wiring method. if you have the space in the ceiling you can mount a box directly above the fixture or right on the sides of the fixture provided that full access to the box is maintained (the cover has to face you).
 
M

MBfreak

MEMBER EMERITUS
Joined
Dec 10, 2010
Messages
2,301
Location
Linkoping , Sweden
First off, I know absolutely nothing about US electrical code requirements. Sorry.

However, this thread has got me interested in the heat losses that a typical LED driver may exhibit.

Todays switched power supplies, at least as found in typical industrial electronics, have very low losses. I guess that a typical good quality LED driver powered from the mains is a DC current source with drive current to match the LED luminaire, and that a number of luminaires can be wired in series. Also, a good quality switched LED driver will have a IC and filters that are taking care of switching losses and RFI, and that may add just a bit to the loss, since the square wave corners will be a bit modified. But still, I would imagine very low losses.

The heat( ie joule) loss in the power supply would be just a few percent of the connected electrical load in Watts . So, say that you have 10 series connected (a LED is DC current driven load) , each luminaire is 10 W. Total load 100 W, losses in the power supply would be maximum 5 W?. My guess.

So, why would the power supply get hot? . Warm, yes absolutely, but not much more than 50-60 Centigrade?

Can someone with better insight in the technology here put me right?
Thanks a lot

Ola
 
I

ishiboo

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 27, 2010
Messages
9,481
Location
Oshkosh, WI
"Code" does not apply here and spell out how that transformer needs to be mounted. The manufacturer instructions are what you need to look at.

MBfreak said:
First off, I know absolutely nothing about US electrical code requirements. Sorry.

However, this thread has got me interested in the heat losses that a typical LED driver may exhibit.

Todays switched power supplies, at least as found in typical industrial electronics, have very low losses. I guess that a typical good quality LED driver powered from the mains is a DC current source with drive current to match the LED luminaire, and that a number of luminaires can be wired in series. Also, a good quality switched LED driver will have a IC and filters that are taking care of switching losses and RFI, and that may add just a bit to the loss, since the square wave corners will be a bit modified. But still, I would imagine very low losses.

The heat( ie joule) loss in the power supply would be just a few percent of the connected electrical load in Watts . So, say that you have 10 series connected (a LED is DC current driven load) , each luminaire is 10 W. Total load 100 W, losses in the power supply would be maximum 5 W?. My guess.

So, why would the power supply get hot? . Warm, yes absolutely, but not much more than 50-60 Centigrade?

Can someone with better insight in the technology here put me right?
Thanks a lot

Ola
Click to expand...

Sure, but 5W is a small night light bulb... in a small junction box you can imagine how hot it would get. And there are drivers of varying efficiency/quality/etc.
 
To avoid these ads, REGISTER NOW!
W

Wirepuller

Banned
Joined
Oct 6, 2014
Messages
305
The photo you posted looks like some lights I just installed at an office. They had a 10x10 metal rough in housing and the actual light was more like a recessed light trim that clipped onto the housing had a ballast to drive some 50w mr16s. Do you have any more info this may be a similar set up.
 
I

ishiboo

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 27, 2010
Messages
9,481
Location
Oshkosh, WI
BTW... based on the fact the light clips in, I would venture a guess the driver is designed for a drop ceiling or uninsulated ceiling with airspace. I would just throw the driver above the fixture or mount it to a joist. Remove insulation from near it... I would give it at least a cubic foot or two of space.

Again, manufacturer instructions are the best.
 
OP
I

inphx

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 23, 2012
Messages
1,307
Location
Phoenix/Scottsdale AZ
The lights i am considering are going to be sourced from China, while i was sourcing i found some on dx.com and did a trial order to check color and brightness. They are CE - not UL
 
N

Norcal

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 16, 2008
Messages
13,794
CE is not a NRTL, Nationally Recognized Testing Laboratory, & the CE mark only has relevance to Europe. Stuff from China like that is very iffy as even if they do have a listing from a NRTL, odds are it's counterfeit.
 
J

jmauld

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 13, 2005
Messages
672
Location
NC
A CE mark on a lighting product most likely means that the manufacturer has self-declared that the product meets a European based standard. (Which standard???)

Does this chinese company have a presence here in the US? If not, how will you pursue legal recourse if these fixtures set your house on fire? Additionally, will your insurance company cover you, if you install a product that has not been evaluated to US standards?

Do your due diligence before investing in these.


*disclaimer, some of my comments may be self serving, so do your own homework. Don't just listen to what I say.
 
OP
I

inphx

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 23, 2012
Messages
1,307
Location
Phoenix/Scottsdale AZ
Good points of concern. I found a source for UL / ETL drivers.

But it's not crystal clear... the specs are:

UL879, UL1310 Class 2(except for LPV-60-5), CAN/CSA C22.2 No. 223-M91(except for LPV-60-5,LPV-60-48), IP67 approved ; design refer to TUV EN60950-1, EN61347-2-13

I see from http://ulstandardsinfonet.ul.com that UL879 / UL1310 chain out to other standards, but i cant tell which one tells me it wont burst into flames :)

While looking for a UL listed LED driver i found some "scammy" specs where they elude to being classified a UL1310 Class 2 Power unit - which seems to be a definition of a unit that converts AC power to dc power under 50v.... not a certificaton of any test.


LED DRIVER Spec from alliedelec.com:
( http://www.alliedelec.com/images/products/datasheets/bm/Mean_Well/70069678.pdf )
 
Last edited:
J

jmauld

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 13, 2005
Messages
672
Location
NC
You must log in or register to reply here.
To avoid these ads, REGISTER NOW!
Top Bottom