40x60 Just use an HVAC/heat pump?

[Repsolracer22]

Anyone just use a normal house-style hvac system for their stand alone garage/polebarn? dont have to fool with waste oil, propane, bla bla bla and you have AC too! opinions?

40x60x12 with a flat ceiling (at 12ft) ...

 

[yeldogt]

Normally still need a back up as the temps drop -- it all depends on the system.

The low temp Mini splits can work down very low -- but they still have lower capacity.

Also the mini's don't like dirty environments.

 

[pseudorealityx]

If you do a traditional heat pump, you'll need an auxillary heat source, most commonly a strip heater, but it could also be dual-fuel.

Or you can do a normal furnace.

The general answer to your question is that yes, a normal house type system is perfectly adequate for a shop, and gives some additional benefits as well. But is more costly.

 

[Repsolracer22]

my plan would be to have some sort of heat system that runs on a thermostat. id keep it at 48-50deg when im not in there. maybe 65 when i am. nothing crazy. you think a house type heat pump would be capable of keeping it at 48-50deg or would i need another source to help it?

 

[Repsolracer22]

i dont really want to invest in a HVAC system if the heater wont work well by itself and i need more heat help. i dont really care about the ac much. just figured the AC would be an added bonues of one of these systems,

 

[pseudorealityx]

Based on what you're saying, you want a furnace rather than a heat pump. With a 60'x 40' shop, having the ability to duct the heat around is kinda useful.

 

[Scott r c]

I think he is referring to a standard furnace/ac split system with a heat pump. That's what I'm putting in mine.

 

[Repsolracer22]

I think he is referring to a standard furnace/ac split system with a heat pump. That's what I'm putting in mine.

yea. but doesn't a heat pump not really work well when the outside temps are 35 and lower? someone also told me about a heater element (like a toasters) that goes inside the duct work and can be activated for added heating help?

 

[pseudorealityx]

Which is why you want a furnace.

A furnace uses natural gas to provide heat, instead of a reverse refrigeration cycle like a heat pump.

The heating element in the duct work is what I already said in post #3.

 

[Repsolracer22]

Which is why you want a furnace.

A furnace uses natural gas to provide heat, instead of a reverse refrigeration cycle like a heat pump.

The heating element in the duct work is what I already said in post #3.

ok. but i dont have natural gas available and propane is pretty expensive dont you think? especially for a heater. maybe not?

 

[Freejack]

yea. but doesn't a heat pump not really work well when the outside temps are 35 and lower? someone also told me about a heater element (like a toasters) that goes inside the duct work and can be activated for added heating help?

Modern heat pumps tend to work at much lower temps, often down to the mid-teens (ºF) and some below that if set up correctly.

The airhandler on the indoor unit is then equipped with strip heat as a back up.

The advantages of a heat pump is that it would be an easier intall - no gas line or flue to install, only electric service. It provides cooling and heating, and in places with lower electricity costs, can be the most cost effective way to heat, especially in more mild climates.

That said, in your case, the disadvantage is that your will need to run the electrity for the both the outdoor unit and the air-handler. Since you'll likely need back-up heat, the electrical service to the airhandler will likely be in the 30-50 amp range. In addition to the 30 amp service for the outdoor unit.

On advantage in a garage is that you do not need to heat it like a house and can stand lower temps (I like my garage to be in the upper 50s when working in the winter), which will help a heat pump keep up when outdoor temps drop below freezing.

Jake

 

[pseudorealityx]

ok. but i dont have natural gas available and propane is pretty expensive dont you think? especially for a heater. maybe not?

You should have said that in your original post.

You'll have to figure out your local propane cost, but *if* you do electric, a heat pump is more efficient by about a factor of 2, even when it's cold outside. You will need the axillary heat strip.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Mitsubishi min-split heat pumps work well down to 0F. How cold does it get where you are ?

View media item 43975
Just like any non-temporary heating system, they require electricity. It you have frequent, extended blackouts or occasionally get temps well below 0F, I would have a backup. Something as simple as a kerosene or propane torpedo.

For such a large building you are going to need multiple indoor heating/cooling units. 2 maybe 4. An expert will help you.

View media item 43976
Each unit can operate independently (separate rooms) or be slaved together in a big room (garage).

Mini-split systems are probably the cheapest to operate for heating and cooling next to a geothermal heat pump.

 

[Repsolracer22]

Never gets to zero deg here in MD. Def drops below freezing and snows though. Not sure what it drops down to at night in the winter. Maybe 20?


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[volleyball]

How many months do you heat? And what is the average outdoor temp at that time?
The heat coil is a giant electric heater. Expensive to operate. Cheap baseboards go a long way to minimize the cost hit. The thousands you save may help with payback.
Do you have to heat the entire space? Adding curtains, keeping heat output in one area, all go a long way to limit your expense.

 

[Repsolracer22]

How many months do you heat? And what is the average outdoor temp at that time?
The heat coil is a giant electric heater. Expensive to operate. Cheap baseboards go a long way to minimize the cost hit. The thousands you save may help with payback.
Do you have to heat the entire space? Adding curtains, keeping heat output in one area, all go a long way to limit your expense.

this garage is storage for diesel tractor, 4x4s, motorcycles, workshop, etc etc. Has water going to building (which can be turned off and drained from building). i dont "work" in there everyday. I dont need it to be 70degrees. My goal would be to have a heater unit that has a thermostat that i can set at like 45-50deg when im not in there (in winter). so batteries dont die, water wont freeze, and diesel tractor actualy starts up .... and I may bump it up a little bit if im in there working. But the "cold months" are really only dec-feb. 3 months. maybe half of november and half of march,.so assume 4 months of needed 'heat' to keep shop at 45-50deg. And yes, i could partition off HALF of the shop and not worry about the other half. but when i say 'cold months' it rarely even gets down to single digits at night. during the day, the highs are usually 20-40 deg in winter time.

i thought it would be cool to have an hvac system because of the AC too. but duct work and the units themselves will probably be $6000-$7500 to install im assuming. THEN paying electric bill on that.

I have access to basically unlimited waste oil. its not at my house but i could bring it there fairly easily. And i calculated that id probably only really need approx 400-500 gallons for an entire winter (again, kept at 50deg or so). So i could collect it during the rest of the year and be ready for winter. i know oil ***** dealing with it and cleaning up messes and soot and maintenance etc etc etc ... so im still unsure.

im getting the closed cel spray foam insulation so it will be pretty tight in there.

 

[volleyball]

If you get oil for free, it seems the best solution. Curtains and a furnace separate for the work area when you want it warmer in there seems the most economical.

 

[91 zeee]

On a building that size I'd forgo the mini split option. Too much equipment and unnecessary refrigerant lines, electrical, condensate lines, etc... would need to be installed. Overly complicated for what you are trying to accomplish.
You mentioned in your first post you might not want to deal with oil, propane, etc... However, if you can get he waste oil for free that is a good option. But what about air conditioning if you go that route; still gonna install the a/c/?
A ducted heat pump system would be best in Maryland in my opinion. Yes, you'd need some auxillary heat (it is installed directly in the air handler)...if sized correctly, a heat pump system will be all you need. Set the thermostat and forget it....simple, efficient, done. (no waste oil, no multiple evaporators, 1 refrigerant line set and 1 condensate line).

 

[Repsolracer22]

Didn't know you can get an HVAC system but ONLY heat. I have an HVAC guy giving me an estimate today. Maybe I'll ask him about that. I don't need the AC option


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[HAP]

I installed my old house unit in my 40x60. The heat pump is really nice. I do have two 60K BTU infrared propane heaters as well, when needed. I also have a 10' BAF to reduce stratification.

 

[75gmck25]

Based on what you have described, I would look at a heat pump with propane or waste oil backup heat (not sure oil is even an option for backup). You would run off the relatively economical heat pump most of the time, and the backup heat (e.g., propane) would only kick in during exceptionally low temps. This type of hybrid is fairly common, but pricier for initial purchase than an all electric system where the backup is heat strips.

You might be able to get a heat-only heat pump, but it probably won't change the price much. A heat pump is an A/C unit running in reverse (more or less), so you are already buying all the components you need for A/C. If you want a heat-only system the most economical initial purchase price will probably be for propane or oil.

Bruce

 

[HAP]

Pretty sure you can find a used Heat Pump system of the appropriate size for a good price. I made a bracket and simply mounted the condenser unit up high on the outside wall near the evaporator. I just installed the evaporator on top of my inside office building right next to the wall for the condenser. Minimum length line set. Also, I did not install any ducting at all. Just ordered a custom fit louvered register for the outlet and a standard size return register with filter from Lowe's and that's it.
Enjoy the AC (lowered humidity) and "warm" air in winter.

R,
HAP

 

[Repsolracer22]

quoted at $9500 installed for a 4ton HVAC setup with duct work and everything installed.

 

[dschmit]

What did you decide to go with?

 

[toplessHO]

look into geothermal heat pump

 

[HAP]

look into geothermal heat pump

Best IF, done during the initial build...