Breaker panel question.

[wolverine22391]

Yellow guys my name is Andrew and I am new to this website. I was some advice and help. I have posted some pics of my current breaker panel, and I don't be leave its up to code or done correctly. I was hoping I could get some tips on how to correct the problem. The main thing is that the grounds and the neutrals are all connected, and from what I read that they should be seperated. Any advice?

 

[wolverine22391]

Pict

 

[wolverine22391]

Another it's only letting me upload one pic at a time

 

[wolverine22391]

Another

 

[wolverine22391]

Another.

 

[wolverine22391]

My apologies guys for doing it like this.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

first let me post it so I can look at it.
Is this the only panel/disconnect in your house?If it is the only panel or first point of disconnect in the house you can have neutrals and grounds on same buss inside panel.
The first thing Id do is straighten up the mess inside the panel ,then you can figure out where things are actually going.

 

[Eriehunter]

I can't get a good zoom to see exactly what you have but it appears that there are some very old breakers that are stabbed into that panel. They look like old style Westinghouse or GE, I would replace them with the proper size Siemens breakers. Manufacturers of panels are only certified for their own brand of breakers. Even tho they fit and clip onto the bus it doesn't mean it is ok. Also those breakers that aren't Siemens are very old and they may not open (probably) when they should, breaker technology has come a long way.

Edit: also plug the open holes all around the panel, there are some nice plastic plugs they make just for that, they are cheap and easy to install, also make sure you have all the open breaker spots plugged in the panel cover.

 

[nehog]

I can't get a good zoom to see exactly what you have but it appears that there are some very old breakers that are stabbed into that panel. They look like old style Westinghouse or GE, I would replace them with the proper size Siemens breakers...

All the breakers I see in the images are Siemens.

 

[wolverine22391]

Yes I know I'll have to figure out the picture posting zmaxmotorsports. Yes this is my main disconnect from the electrical grid. Yes I know this panel is a mess, it is my goal to get it fixed soon. My main concern was for it to be wired correctly, and was just unsure about the neutrals and grounds. Also thank you Eriehunter for pointing out the breakers I would of never known.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

What is ahead of this panel? Just a meter or a meter AND a breaker? If just a meter then this is your main panel and therefore neutrals and grounds can be on the same bar! Looks like u have a 3-wire feeder with AL SER....

 

[pattenp]

I don't see anything terribly wrong with the panel. The only real obvious thing is the open knockouts need seals.

Edit: The big loop of wire needs to be shortened and cleaned up.

 

[wolverine22391]

wyliesdiesel yes it is just a meter before it with no other breakers. I am relived to hear that they can be together. I definitely will clean it up and cover those openings. Also one other concern is that this pannel has only one ground rod connect to it, but there is one at the sunannel in the pole barn.

I defiantly appritiate your guys help.

 

[Eriehunter]

Code is one ground rod at each building, but your local area may require 2 or even 3. If you would update your location in your profile someone may be able to tell you what you need

 

[pattenp]

Only one rod is needed if 25 ohms resistanance or less can be proven so typically 2 rod are driven.

 

[maintguy]

Op I work in your area. All the time. The panel looks pretty good for the area. Hard too see what is actually wrong from the pics being so small

 

[justsam]

Are you having any problems?
Looks ok to me. It even looks like 12ga was used on some15 amp circuits which could have been 14 ga., assuming typical run lengths.

 

[wildstyle]

I know here you can't have branch feeds coming into the box where the service entrance wires enter. Dunno if that flies where you live.

 

[scoob8000]

Really don't see anything major wrong. (besides what others have already mentioned) That panel really isn't that bad compared so some others I've seen. Hell it's neater than the main panel in my house.

 

[maintguy]

Looks like the se cable on the bottom is used for a larger appliance or an sub panel.

 

[theoldwizard1]

I don't see anything terribly wrong with the panel. The only real obvious thing is the open knockouts need seals.

IF IT AIN'T BROKE, DON'T FIX IT !

My house was built in the mid-50s. It still have the original screw-in fuse box ! Ground is to a cold water pipe. The SER cable feeding from the meter outside has a weather-worn outer covering. The power company recently installed a new "smart" meter in the original meter socket and housing and made no mention of any "recommended" work.

If I ever want to upgrade the service to my detached garage, all of that would likely have to be replaced.

 

[wolverine22391]

My main concern was the grounds with the neutrals, and the grounding rod. There is nothing else wrong with it, it is just messy. Also yes that SE cable is to a subannel to my pole barn. I appritiate the help guys.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

Just make sure that there are no ground and neutrals in the same hole in the bars, and no more than one neutral in a hole in the bar. Most panels allow two, or even three grounds in one hole in the bar, but never mix with neutrals. Panel really doesn't look that bad except for the excess holes left open.

Charles

 

[Charles (in GA)]

IF IT AIN'T BROKE, DON'T FIX IT !

My house was built in the mid-50s. It still have the original screw-in fuse box ! Ground is to a cold water pipe. The SER cable feeding from the meter outside has a weather-worn outer covering. The power company recently installed a new "smart" meter in the original meter socket and housing and made no mention of any "recommended" work.

If I ever want to upgrade the service to my detached garage, all of that would likely have to be replaced.

Around here, the POCO won't make any suggestions unless they see something totally unsafe. The guy installing the Smartmeter was probably specially trained for that and most likely not a regular lineman. Here the POCO sent a guy with a pickup full of meters out and a scan gun, a few tools and enough training to swap meters. They went down the street doing a wholesale change out of all meters. I think if he encountered a problem swap out, he was supposed to call a regular lineman.

Charles

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I know here you can't have branch feeds coming into the box where the service entrance wires enter. Dunno if that flies where you live.

Thats a Canadian only code. Ive seen many episodes of Mike Holmes where they bring up this code specifically! Do u know the reasoning for this code?

My main concern was the grounds with the neutrals, and the grounding rod. There is nothing else wrong with it, it is just messy. Also yes that SE cable is to a subannel to my pole barn. I appritiate the help guys.

Does this SE cable go underground? If so, it needs to be replaced. SE isnt rated for underground use. Also, it looks like its 3 wire. When was this cable put in? Before or after 2008?

 

[wolverine22391]

The SE cable is a three wire and was installed after 08. The cable is in pvc conduit, should I be concerned?

 

[Norcal]

Thats a Canadian only code. Ive seen many episodes of Mike Holmes where they bring up this code specifically! Do u know the reasoning for this?

There has been a attempt to get that requirement added to the NEC but was rejected, I think it's a bit much but having the main lugs guarded would be a good addition & would not be that costly.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

The SE cable is a three wire and was installed after 08. The cable is in pvc conduit, should I be concerned?

Yes! As its AL It will turn into a mushy toothpaste like substance. Its not rated for wet locations. And it should have been 4-wire...if it were me i would replace it!

There has been a attempt to get that requirement added to the NEC but was rejected, I think it's a bit much but having the main lugs guarded would be a good addition & would not be that costly.

It is a good idea, though a little late in the game and would possibly require panel manufacturers to change and resubmit their panels for U/L listing.

 

[wolverine22391]

Wyliesdiesel thank you for pointing that out, I did not know that. When I do get a chance I will get that replaced, but should I be concerned right away? It is secured in conduit all the way to the poll barn, with no direct contact with soil? Thank you again for the knowledge from you gentlemen.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Yes! Conduit almost ALWAYS ends up with water in it! How old is it? I should add that it could take awhile depending on how long it takes for the insulation to breakdown. If there were any nicks or scrapes in the jacket, it will be hastened!

 

[wolverine22391]

Yes! Conduit almost ALWAYS ends up with water in it! How old is it? I should add that it could take awhile depending on how long it takes for the insulation to breakdown. If there were any nicks or scrapes in the jacket, it will be hastened!

It is roughly two years old. If I may ask also, is there any suggestions on what to replace it with?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

2-2-2-4 MHF.

How long is the run?
What size breaker do u currently have feeding the SE? #2 AL is good for upto 90a.

If its not too long of a run, u could do 90a.

What size is the conduit?

 

[theoldwizard1]

Wylie, educate me. That cable say SE and XHHW-2. XHHW-2 is rated for dry and wet locations (conduits are wet). Why should in NOT be used underground ?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Wylie, educate me. That cable say SE and XHHW-2. XHHW-2 is rated for dry and wet locations (conduits are wet). Why should in NOT be used underground ?

While the phase conductors are rated XHHW, the neutral (or ground in the case of 3 wire SEU) is a bare conductor and the NEC requires all underground conductors to be insulated. This conductor will turn into toothpaste like mushy substance.

EDIT: I really shouldnt post when im half awake. I was only paying attention to the xhhw and forgot we were talking about SEU...

 

[wolverine22391]

My mistake. I did not see the XHHW rating...still shouldve been 4-wire....

The cable is between 80 to 90 feet, and is connected up too 100amp breakers both ends. Also xHHW means it can get wet then? I will definTely replace it with a 4 wire for sure.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

The cable is between 80 to 90 feet, and is connected up too 100amp breakers both ends. Also xHHW means it can get wet then? I will definTely replace it with a 4 wire for sure.

Please go back and read my previous post. I wasnt paying attention when i was half awake...

U should replace this SEU with a cable such as 2-2-2-4 MHF. It is rated for direct burial and must be in conduit in doors.

And u shouldnt be using a 100a breaker in the main panel as #2 AL is rated for only 90a when used as a branch feeder...

 

[pattenp]

From Southwire ......

APPLICATIONS
Southwire Type SE, service entrance cable is used to convey power from the service drop to the meter base and from the meter base to the distribution panelboard; however, it may be used in all applications where Type SE cable is permitted. SE may be used in wet or dry above ground locations at temperatures not to exceed 90° C. The voltage rating is 600 volts.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Thanks Wylie and Pattenp ! I learned something today.

Wet use above ground make sense because the bare conductor will probably have time to dry as opposed to constantly sitting in water in a conduit ! And people think conduits are to keep cables dry. HA !

 

[wolverine22391]

Well I have definitely learned a lot from starting this thread. Thank you guys for your help I will definitely be fixing this soon.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

And u shouldnt be using a 100a breaker in the main panel as #2 AL is rated for only 90a when used as a branch feeder...

To be clear, the 100 amp breaker is OK on the subpanel (receiving end) of this circuit. The 90 amp in the main panel protects the wire (and the subpanel bus bars) and the sub's 100 amp main is used as a disconnect only.

Charles