Grounding outlet in older home

[pancho400cid]

Not the garage, but I have a house built in 1955. It has been added to and renovated and the newer parts have grounded wall outlets per modern code. I'd like to retro-fit the remaining older "two prong" stuff with grounded "three prong" outlets.

Was thinking I could fish 14 ga. bare or green-insulated ground wires down the walls to each outlet and connect to the box and/or ground lug on the receptacles.

What to do in the attic though? Connect all that ground wire and make a single run to the ground rod driven into the ground next to the updated breaker box? I'd assume you would want bigger wire for that (10 or 12 ga?)

Any input appreciated.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

How many places do you really need a grounded outlet in your house?You could add a gfi in places you need it a lot easier .

 

[C96]

If you’re going to go through the trouble of fishing wire down to all the receptacles you might as well be fishing down all new 14/2 or 12/2 romex as needed. Set junction boxes in the attic and run new homeruns.

 

[Rock knocker]

A GFCI marked "no equipment ground" suffices in most instances. Electronics with surge protectors require a ground wire. This can only really be done be feeding a new wire.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Was thinking I could fish 14 ga. bare or green-insulated ground wires down the walls to each outlet and connect to the box and/or ground lug on the receptacles.

Technically, not legal. I am also not certain it would do much good.

 

[theoldwizard1]

A GFCI marked "no equipment ground" suffices in most instances. Electronics with surge protectors require a ground wire. This can only really be done be feeding a new wire.

Very few "appliances" actually check if there is a ground. Modern furnace is one of the few things I know at will not work without a bonded ground.

Just install some GFCI outlets with the sticker.

 

[marty68]

i agree with c96. worth the time and energy. when you go to sell it they may require you to upgrade it. and by then they may REQUIRE it be done by an electrician. here to add more than 2 devices you have to get an electrical permit.... only an electrician can get an electrical permit. new code here requires "arc protection" $$ do it safely yourself but do it right. do one room at a time each room separate circuit to panel.
a former co- worker added ground plugs to his house. he used "armored cable" using metal outer shell as the ground. years ago that was ok. home inspector at time of sale saw it. he was required to change it back to ungrounded recpts. or run new wire. he ran new wire.

 

[Rock knocker]

a former co- worker added ground plugs to his house. he used "armored cable" using metal outer shell as the ground. years ago that was ok. home inspector at time of sale saw it. he was required to change it back to ungrounded recpts. or run new wire. he ran new wire.

Home inspector had no basis to do what he did

 

[Charles (in GA)]

Technically, not legal. I am also not certain it would do much good.

I said the same thing in a previous thread. Got corrected real fast. Code does allow retro fitting a separate ground.

Best solution is junction boxes in attic with new 12 gauge all the way.

 

[pancho400cid]

Well... I typed this response once and it did not post.... here goes again.

First thanks for the input. Surprised at what I'm hearing.

I thought it was fairly common to retro-fit the ground wires. The receptacle is just as "grounded" whether the ground wire is "in" the romex or zip-tied "to" it.

It would be a lot more work to make all new home runs... OTOH I'd hate to run separate ground wires only to have it regarded as half-a$$ or worse - rejected by an inspector if I try to sell.

 

[theoldwizard1]

... when you go to sell it they may require you to upgrade it ...

You are never REQUIRED to upgrade existing electrical to current standards UNLESS you are doing remodel, which is why parts of your house have been upgraded.

 

[theoldwizard1]

A properly installed and functioning GFCI outlet, without a ground, actually gives better protection than a grounded outlet.

 

[ddawg16]

A properly installed and functioning GFCI outlet, without a ground, actually gives better protection than a grounded outlet.

Correct.

Given the direction GFCI's and AFCI's are going, I could almost see where the ground could disappear.

If you think about it, what purpose does a ground really perform? Even with a ground on a device, unless the fault in a 'device' is from hot to ground, the breaker is not going to trip. However, a GFCI will instantly trip if there is any ground fault current.

On a related note...I have AFCI's in the 2-story addition I have 'almost' finished. I've ran all my power tools off those AFCI's without a single issue. But when I went to install a GFCI outside....it was tripping the AFCI. I eventually figured out I had a broken wire in the box. The insulation was ok, the wire was broken. The AFCI was doing it's job.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

i agree with c96. worth the time and energy. when you go to sell it they may require you to upgrade it. and by then they may REQUIRE it be done by an electrician. here to add more than 2 devices you have to get an electrical permit.... only an electrician can get an electrical permit. new code here requires "arc protection" $$ do it safely yourself but do it right. do one room at a time each room separate circuit to panel.
a former co- worker added ground plugs to his house. he used "armored cable" using metal outer shell as the ground. years ago that was ok. home inspector at time of sale saw it. he was required to change it back to ungrounded recpts. or run new wire. he ran new wire.

They cant force you to change something that was not a code violation when the house was built,unless you start opening walls it is existing.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

Home inspector had no basis to do what he did

What he said.

 

[sberry]

And,, this is not to go to a ground rod,,, and,,, no daisy chain spiders of wires allowed, You are allowed a single wire to a single device but,,,, I am doing one now I started with the idea of fixing up then I realize its really going to be as easy and better to pull new wire with ground and 90 degree rating as it really isn't legal to put a new fixture on old wire. Its a real slope in some cases once a guy starts.

 

[Rock knocker]

A properly installed and functioning GFCI outlet, without a ground, actually gives better protection than a grounded outlet.

From the human standpoint.

Surge protectors require an intact electrical ground to protect electronics.

 

[ddawg16]

From the human standpoint. Surge protectors require an intact electrical ground to protect electronics.

Noooottttt quite true.

If the electronics device is not physically grounded anywhere....and the surge protection has devices across the load side....then the electronics will be protected up to the surge limit if the surge protector.

Now in the case of a human who is touching said electronics.....well, he is now a path to ground.

Surges come in one of two types....across the line side, and line to ground. Line to ground is typical of a lightning strike. Across line is a disturbance on the line.....bad transformer, something blowing up, etc.

 

[Rock knocker]

You sound like you know what you're talking about

 

[pancho400cid]

Its a real slope in some cases

Man... ain't that the truth!

The "do nothing" approach is looking better and better after all the discussion. My garage and everywhere I normally use heavier loads is all modern code stuff.

I did not realize that GFCI/AFCI's did not require a separate ground wire. I need to read up on them.

 

[CoopVA]

The NEC requires a ground at each receptacle... There are options...

http://m.ecmweb.com/content/replacing-2-wire-ungrounded-receptacles


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[CoopVA]

Not true at all. You are allowed to use GFCI's in their place, and you are also allowed to replace a two-prong receptacle with the same in the case of the older receptacle wearing out.

You are correct...

I fixed my post...


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[theoldwizard1]

The NEC requires a ground at each receptacle... There are options...

http://m.ecmweb.com/content/replacing-2-wire-ungrounded-receptacles

There is no requirement for retrofit existing 2 wire circuit that are in proper working condition.

From you link

You may run into some "residential" work that involves retrofitting an existing 2-wire system.

The key word is system, which should probably read sub-system.

Even when installing a new load center, you are not required to replace all properly installed/maintain 2 wire circuits.

 

[CoopVA]

There is no requirement for retrofit existing 2 wire circuit that are in proper working condition.



From you link





The key word is system, which should probably read sub-system.



Even when installing a new load center, you are not required to replace all properly installed/maintain 2 wire circuits.

I agree. Frankly, this never comes up in commercial work, (at least I have never seen it in the 20+ years I've been doing it...) and I originally posted what I did with a knee jerk reaction. The article I posted really explains the issue well, and backs up what you are saying. I think the article is implying that there may be instances were you will be "retro fitting" an older installation, which is possible. I'm sure there are people that do it.




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[sberry]

I am in the process of pulling all but about 100 ft of new wire in a house that couldn't have passed inspection when it was built, out dated wire even then.

 

[CoopVA]

Hell, there are houses out there that still have knob&tube wiring installed... And hot...


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[wyliesdiesels]

Technically, not legal. I am also not certain it would do much good.

Not true. Code allows a separate ground/EGC to be added to a 2-wire circuit.

i agree with c96. worth the time and energy. when you go to sell it they may require you to upgrade it. and by then they may REQUIRE it be done by an electrician. here to add more than 2 devices you have to get an electrical permit.... only an electrician can get an electrical permit. new code here requires "arc protection" $$ do it safely yourself but do it right. do one room at a time each room separate circuit to panel.
a former co- worker added ground plugs to his house. he used "armored cable" using metal outer shell as the ground. years ago that was ok. home inspector at time of sale saw it. he was required to change it back to ungrounded recpts. or run new wire. he ran new wire.

Home inspector had no basis to do what he did

Exactly! If the BX was installed before code disallowed grounding through the metal jacket, then the inspector was wrong. I would have challenged it!

Well... I typed this response once and it did not post.... here goes again.

First thanks for the input. Surprised at what I'm hearing.

I thought it was fairly common to retro-fit the ground wires. The receptacle is just as "grounded" whether the ground wire is "in" the romex or zip-tied "to" it.

It would be a lot more work to make all new home runs... OTOH I'd hate to run separate ground wires only to have it regarded as half-a$$ or worse - rejected by an inspector if I try to sell.

You CAN legally add a ground wire to a 2-wire circuit!

Hell, there are houses out there that still have knob&tube wiring installed... And hot...


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Yup! And many insurance companies either wont insure the house or will charge a very HIGH rate for insurance!

 

[westom]

If the electronics device is not physically grounded anywhere....and the surge protection has devices across the load side....then the electronics will be protected up to the surge limit if the surge protector.

Ground a surge; not the electronic appliance. Grounding an appliance only makes that a best path to earth - destructively.

Power strip protectors have a number on its box. Let-through voltage is 330 volts. A surge, hunting for earth ground, is maybe 5000 volts on a hot wire when approaching that appliance and protector. 330 volts means 4670 volts on the neutral and ground wire. And a surge still hunting for earth ground destructively via the appliance. An adjacent protector has done exactly what its manufacturer spec number said it would do. Protect up to its surge limit. Gives a surge more paths to find earth destructively via an adjacent appliance.

Receptacle safety ground (to meet code) clearly has no purpose in surge protection. Since protection is always about connecting a surge current *low impedance* (ie 'less than 10 feet') to single point earth ground. That is not a receptacle's safety ground with excessive impedance.

Code defines safety (equipment) ground and earth ground. These are electrically different. A wall receptacle 'three light' tester can only report on safety ground. It says nothing about earth ground. And says nothing about wire impedance. Protecting appliances from a surge is about earth ground and impedance. Neither are apparent at a wall receptacle.

Safety grounding (or even worse, earthing) an appliance does not provide transistor protection. Earthing a surge does. In every case, a protector is only as effective as what does actual protection: single point earth ground. That (and not a protector) should have the most attention.

Best appliance protection for all homes - two wire or three - is one properly earthed 'whole house' protector. Upgrading receptacles to three prong is done for human safety; not for transistor safety.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Uh oh its westom! Here we go again!

Why is it that westom ONLY appears when were talking about grounding but not ALL grounding threads?

Its like he has notifications set to tell him when were talking grounding...

 

[TractorJeff]

The way he paragraphed each item makes it sound like he knows and understands Grounding?

 

[sberry]

I think he has been studying. Nothing wrong with that.

 

[sberry]

I can say this for a fact. I quizzed the phone guy and he "doesnt understand why" so along the way if you enough strikes must upgrade protection but since I went to 880 and quizzed a whiz on one of these forums have not had a destructive strike and not had to replace protectors or shut anything off during storms. The last hit I actually had was years ago and it blew their protector instead of coming to my grounded computer.
Another neighbor had a strike,, it "hit the well",,,, no,,, it hit a shabby circuit in a sheetmetal out building and finally found ground in the well. Sheet didn't really have an earth ground but was grounded thru the electric system.
There are provisions that allow a stake to be pounded to ground phones but its not as good as going to the electric especially if it has a good electrode. I even upsized the wire one, couldn't hurt.

 

[Rock knocker]

Not true. Code allows a separate ground/EGC to be added to a 2-wire circuit.........
.......You CAN legally add a ground wire to a 2-wire circuit!

I thought all conductors had to be contained in the same cable or raceway?

 

[sberry]

Probably old modems didn't help but most secondary phone in residential that connects to electric is 2 wire cept for a puter. Never took any of it out on the same circuit.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

I thought all conductors had to be contained in the same cable or raceway?

That's always been my understanding also.

 

[sberry]

I didn't write this.
For replacement of non-grounding-type receptacles with grounding-type receptacles and for branch-circuit extensions only in existing installations that do not have an equipment grounding conductor in the branch circuit, connections shall be permitted as indicated in 250.130(C). C) Nongrounding Receptacle Replacement or Branch Circuit Extensions. The equipment grounding conductor of a grounding-type receptacle or a branch-circuit extension shall be permitted to be connected to any of the following: (1) Any accessible point on the grounding electrode system as described in 250.50 (2) Any accessible point on the grounding electrode conductor (3) The equipment grounding terminal bar within the enclosure where the branch circuit for the receptacle or branch circuit originates (4) For grounded systems, the grounded service conductor within the service equipment enclosure (5) For ungrounded systems, the grounding terminal bar within the service equipment enclosure If you use the water pipe, the connection must be within 5 feet of where the pipe enters the building.
You are permitted to replace a two-wire nongrounding type receptacle with a GFCI under the following in section 406.3 (3) Nongrounding-Type Receptacles. Where grounding means does not exist in the receptacle enclosure, the installation shall comply with (a), (b), or (c). (a) A nongrounding-type receptacle(s) shall be permitted to be replaced with another nongrounding-type receptacle(s). (b) A nongrounding-type receptacle(s) shall be permitted to be replaced with a ground-fault circuit interrupter-type of receptacle(s). These receptacles shall be marked "No Equipment Ground." An equipment grounding conductor shall not be connected from the ground-fault circuit-interrupter-type receptacle to any outlet supplied from the ground-fault circuit-interrupter receptacle. (c) A nongrounding-type receptacle(s) shall be permitted to be replaced with a grounding-type receptacle(s) where supplied through a ground-fault circuit interrupter. Grounding-type receptacles supplied through the ground-fault circuit interrupter shall be marked "GFCI Protected" and "No Equipment Ground." An equipment grounding conductor shall not be connected between the grounding-type receptacles. When you make this change be very, very careful that you get the hot "black" wire on the right side of the outlet.


(B) With Circuit Conductors. By an equipment grounding conductor contained within the same raceway, cable, or otherwise run with the circuit conductors.
NEC HANDBOOK COMMENTARY;
One of the functions of an equipment grounding conductor is to provide a low-impedance ground-fault path between a ground fault and the electrical source. This path allows the overcurrent protective device to actuate, interrupting the current. To keep the impedance at a minimum, it is necessary to run the equipment grounding conductor within the same raceway or cable as the circuit conductor(s). This practice allows the magnetic field developed by the circuit conductor and the equipment grounding conductor to cancel, reducing their impedance.
Magnetic flux strength is inversely proportional to the square of the distance between the two conductors. By placing an equipment grounding conductor away from the conductor delivering the fault current, the magnetic flux cancellation decreases. This increases the impedance of the fault path and delays operation of the protective device.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I thought all conductors had to be contained in the same cable or raceway?

That's always been my understanding also.

There is an exception in the NEC that allows a grounding conductor to be ran separate from circuit conductors for retrofitting older homes that have only 2-wire circuits....

I didn't write this.
For replacement of non-grounding-type receptacles with grounding-type receptacles and for branch-circuit extensions only in existing installations that do not have an equipment grounding conductor in the branch circuit, connections shall be permitted as indicated in 250.130(C). C) Nongrounding Receptacle Replacement or Branch Circuit Extensions. The equipment grounding conductor of a grounding-type receptacle or a branch-circuit extension shall be permitted to be connected to any of the following: (1) Any accessible point on the grounding electrode system as described in 250.50 (2) Any accessible point on the grounding electrode conductor (3) The equipment grounding terminal bar within the enclosure where the branch circuit for the receptacle or branch circuit originates (4) For grounded systems, the grounded service conductor within the service equipment enclosure (5) For ungrounded systems, the grounding terminal bar within the service equipment enclosure If you use the water pipe, the connection must be within 5 feet of where the pipe enters the building.
You are permitted to replace a two-wire nongrounding type receptacle with a GFCI under the following in section 406.3 (3) Nongrounding-Type Receptacles. Where grounding means does not exist in the receptacle enclosure, the installation shall comply with (a), (b), or (c). (a) A nongrounding-type receptacle(s) shall be permitted to be replaced with another nongrounding-type receptacle(s). (b) A nongrounding-type receptacle(s) shall be permitted to be replaced with a ground-fault circuit interrupter-type of receptacle(s). These receptacles shall be marked "No Equipment Ground." An equipment grounding conductor shall not be connected from the ground-fault circuit-interrupter-type receptacle to any outlet supplied from the ground-fault circuit-interrupter receptacle. (c) A nongrounding-type receptacle(s) shall be permitted to be replaced with a grounding-type receptacle(s) where supplied through a ground-fault circuit interrupter. Grounding-type receptacles supplied through the ground-fault circuit interrupter shall be marked "GFCI Protected" and "No Equipment Ground." An equipment grounding conductor shall not be connected between the grounding-type receptacles. When you make this change be very, very careful that you get the hot "black" wire on the right side of the outlet.


(B) With Circuit Conductors. By an equipment grounding conductor contained within the same raceway, cable, or otherwise run with the circuit conductors.
NEC HANDBOOK COMMENTARY;
One of the functions of an equipment grounding conductor is to provide a low-impedance ground-fault path between a ground fault and the electrical source. This path allows the overcurrent protective device to actuate, interrupting the current. To keep the impedance at a minimum, it is necessary to run the equipment grounding conductor within the same raceway or cable as the circuit conductor(s). This practice allows the magnetic field developed by the circuit conductor and the equipment grounding conductor to cancel, reducing their impedance.
Magnetic flux strength is inversely proportional to the square of the distance between the two conductors. By placing an equipment grounding conductor away from the conductor delivering the fault current, the magnetic flux cancellation decreases. This increases the impedance of the fault path and delays operation of the protective device.

I thought it was the GROUNDED CONDUCTOR(neutral) and not the GROUNDING CONDUCTOR(EGC) that cancels the magnetic flux....

 

[kbs2244]

My son just went through this with a prospective buyer of his home.
(Over $500K lake frontage.)
Young couple, first house, super scared.
Two different inspections by two different inspectres.
Both called him on a lack of GFI outlets in the garage.
"So?"
"It is code."
"Not when it was built."
"It is now."
"So? House is listed 'as is'"
"It isn't safe."
"I have lived here almost 20 years. I am still alive."
"It isn't safe."
"Then don't buy it."
The prospective buyers agent was pissed at them.
My sons agent laughed and brought him another offer for $10K more two weeks later.
This guy wants an inspection.
"But only so I know what I need to get fixed."
The two agents are going through the formalities.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

GFCIs have been required in garages since the late 70's...

 

[Rock knocker]

Not the point though, any seller can tell a buyer to bite it for what ever reason.