Arc-Fault Circuit-Interrupter (AFCI) Protection

[Zeke]

Please discuss. I am about to remove old K & T wiring that goes only to ceiling mounted light fixtures. Most are switched at the wall but there are 3-4 hot boxes in closets that are switched by a pull chain light fixture. Assuming I choose those fixtures to not include a receptacle, does any or all of this new work require AFCI's?

If it does, I know I can put an AFCI receptacle at the head of each circuit. I guess I would just add those in the attic. But, I'm getting ahead of the topic.

My guess is that the answer is yes, AFCI is required as per NEC 210.12(A) because of the new wording about circuits to "devices" as opposed to "outlets."

Just want to get an affirmation of this and any work-arounds such as the attic receptacles that I mentioned. I have 2 existing 15 A lighting circuits that supply a 1200 sq ft home. All the wall outlets are being rewired from the crawl space below. There are no switched receptacles anywhere.

 

[kd3pc]

I agree, that you have answered your own question, and it would be an affirmative....unless the authority in your area says otherwise.

IF you have fans/lights, you may have issues.....my new house uses AFCI breakers and ALL of the ceiling fans with lights (switched separately) are start the fan motor, then delay the lights....so as to not "confuse" the AFCI. I have been told that conventional fan/light combinations will trip the AFCI, intermittently on start up...

YMMV, but for us it took a longer than expected time to get used to the delay in lights when you hit the switch.

 

[Zeke]

Thank you, kd3pc. I realize due to your post that an AFCI outlet in the attic is a poor idea. It needs to be accessible. I guess I will plan on adding a wall outlet of 2 that will feed back up to the lighting circuit.

In case you're wondering, I have no provision for AFCI breakers in my panel. I could set a sub panel on an interior wall and that's been discussed. I could set this panel nearly back to back with the entrance and only panel at this point. A little 6 position panel with no main would be more than adequate.

So, that's another solution.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

IIRCC Be aware that if u use AFCI outlets, coDE requires the cable feeding the outlet to be in conduit/protected.

 

[Zeke]

IIRCC Be aware that if u use AFCI outlets, coDE requires the cable feeding the outlet to be in conduit/protected.

I did read that or so I thought. Metal boxes are required as well? Or just the first one?

Edit: I found that metal conduit or bonded MC flex cable need only to go to the first box.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Yes, the point being that if a momentary short occured on the wire before the outlet, then theres obviously no protection.

Also, one could occur at the box on the line side(before the outlet) which is obviously not protected.

IMHO, AFCIs are snake oil!

 

[Zeke]

Yes, the point being that if a momentary short occured on the wire before the outlet, then theres obviously no protection.

Also, one could occur at the box on the line side(before the outlet) which is obviously not protected.

IMHO, AFCIs are snake oil!

Might be, but I've found some interesting information that supports these in a positive way (sorry). It's just that the whole thing becomes selective and the best way around that, or so the manufacturers and lawyers say, is to just arc fault the whole damn house.


This is a scholarly paper written by an EE with a PhD that shows the faults in the current thinking. ) I'm so bad

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I will have to read it when i get a chance!

To me its another product the code boards are pushing because of the squawking from the manufacturer's lobbysits!

 

[Zeke]

We, the licensed electrician that I use and who lets me help out or even do some of the legwork ahead of time, have decided to put in a 6/12 sub panel that will accept the AFCI breakers if we can find one.

 

[Norcal]

A lighting fixture, smoke detector is a "outlet", so any changes made in areas that require AFCI's, trigger the AFCI requirement.

 

[Zeke]

A lighting fixture, smoke detector is a "outlet", so any changes made in areas that require AFCI's, trigger the AFCI requirement.

I got that. The wording in the section was changed to "devices" as I mentioned above. Anything that is wired to the circuit is a device AFAIK. Still studying the issue and I guess the garage and exterior is exempt, only needs GFCI's. Somewhere I saw that if a porch light is switched from an interior circuit it needs AFCI protection. And for some reason if your hallway and/or stairwell 'devices' are separate, they don't need arc fault protection.

If that is all true, I've lost a bit of respect for the NEC and the people that change it. I think they need a big dose of reason.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

Yes, the point being that if a momentary short occured on the wire before the outlet, then theres obviously no protection.

Also, one could occur at the box on the line side(before the outlet) which is obviously not protected.

IMHO, AFCIs are snake oil!

Unless its protected by an afci breaker in the panel ,I see no good coming from it .

 

[Zeke]

Unless its protected by an afci breaker in the panel ,I see no good coming from it .

I believe you are correct. The electrician and I have decided to put in sub panel that will accept AFCI breakers.

 

[pboehmer]

Apologies for the thread crapping... I was going to start a rant thread on AFCI breakers, but decided to hold off until I saw this thread. AFCI breakers have been such a PITA for me. Built an addition w/attached garage, did the wiring myself. I'm not an electrician, but did everything by the book, permits/inspections, etc. Every circuit required AFCI breaker and tamper resistant outlets (T/R GFCI in the garage). All wire runs are 12 gauge with 20a breakers. Everything is peachy and perfect....

That is, until about a week later when we start actually using the addition. In the garage, use an air compressor, trips AFCI. Use the electric leaf blower, trips AFCI. In the addition, use the treadmill, trips the AFCI, use the vacuum, trips the AFCI. Damn near everything with a freak'n motor trips the darn things. Did I mention that halogen bulbs can also trip the AFCI? These are all different circuits. grrrrr.

Originally thought it was wiring issue on my part (again, not an expert). Wired short test run from the panel to an outlet and same result. Google searches pretty much confirm its an issue with earlier AFCI breakers. Called the inspector and he suggested that I install noise filters on each outlet. So, on top of the $40+ 20a AFCI breaker, I also need a ~$20 per outlet noise filter. Gaaaahhhhh!

In the end, I did what is considered to be a no-no and replaced the problematic circuits with standard breakers. btw, these are the Eaton BR Combination type. I noticed the other day that there are new versions of the breaker. I may pick one up and see if they've "turned down" the sensitivity.

End of rant, continue on with your regular programming.

 

[aandpdan]

PBoehmer, where are reading that AFCI's are required in a garage? The Code says "dwelling unit."

I've had AFCI's for years, never a trip, and a MrsA&P uses a 50 year old Electrikbroom to do the hardwood floors.

 

[kd3pc]

pb

dead on, it is the technology....almost anything that has rotation or voltage transition or might have an inrush current will trip some of them.

Instead of a filter, get some small UPS units and use them.

And in the garage, I know several builders back in VA that have a set of AFCI/TR outlets to use, just for inspection and then swap them all out and finish out the wiring using more garage friendly items.

Eaton and Schneider electric have been made aware in great detail this information, in a lab style test format - what they choose to do with it, remains unclear. The only place worse than a garage to implement AFCI is a marina, and to an even worse degree the actual boat....even they are required to be compliant.

end of rant, as well

ps, AndP, both VA and TN = AFCI and tamper resistant are required in most jurisdictions. The last two garages I just did here in TN, were stand alone and the inspector required them to be compliant. Attached garages have always been subject to the home requirements - At least in most of VA and middle TN. Always up to the inspectors and AHJ, when you get down to it.

 

[aandpdan]

AFCI not required by my AHJ in MA, in a garage attached or not. GFCI protection is required of course.

TR is required.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Apologies for the thread crapping... I was going to start a rant thread on AFCI breakers, but decided to hold off until I saw this thread. AFCI breakers have been such a PITA for me. Built an addition w/attached garage, did the wiring myself. I'm not an electrician, but did everything by the book, permits/inspections, etc. Every circuit required AFCI breaker and tamper resistant outlets (T/R GFCI in the garage). All wire runs are 12 gauge with 20a breakers. Everything is peachy and perfect....

That is, until about a week later when we start actually using the addition. In the garage, use an air compressor, trips AFCI. Use the electric leaf blower, trips AFCI. In the addition, use the treadmill, trips the AFCI, use the vacuum, trips the AFCI. Damn near everything with a freak'n motor trips the darn things. Did I mention that halogen bulbs can also trip the AFCI? These are all different circuits. grrrrr.

Originally thought it was wiring issue on my part (again, not an expert). Wired short test run from the panel to an outlet and same result. Google searches pretty much confirm its an issue with earlier AFCI breakers. Called the inspector and he suggested that I install noise filters on each outlet. So, on top of the $40+ 20a AFCI breaker, I also need a ~$20 per outlet noise filter. Gaaaahhhhh!

In the end, I did what is considered to be a no-no and replaced the problematic circuits with standard breakers. btw, these are the Eaton BR Combination type. I noticed the other day that there are new versions of the breaker. I may pick one up and see if they've "turned down" the sensitivity.

End of rant, continue on with your regular programming.

pb

dead on, it is the technology....almost anything that has rotation or voltage transition or might have an inrush current will trip some of them.

Instead of a filter, get some small UPS units and use them.

And in the garage, I know several builders back in VA that have a set of AFCI/TR outlets to use, just for inspection and then swap them all out and finish out the wiring using more garage friendly items.

Eaton and Schneider electric have been made aware in great detail this information, in a lab style test format - what they choose to do with it, remains unclear. The only place worse than a garage to implement AFCI is a marina, and to an even worse degree the actual boat....even they are required to be compliant.

end of rant, as well

ps, AndP, both VA and TN = AFCI and tamper resistant are required in most jurisdictions. The last two garages I just did here in TN, were stand alone and the inspector required them to be compliant. Attached garages have always been subject to the home requirements - At least in most of VA and middle TN. Always up to the inspectors and AHJ, when you get down to it.

u guys forgot the



Seriosuly though, as I said AFCIs are snake oil. I would like to see some actual documented statistics of number of house fires prevented because of AFCIs!!

Maybe its out there but i havent found it!

 

[Norcal]

u guys forgot the



Seriosuly though, as I said AFCIs are snake oil. I would like to see some actual documented statistics of number of house fires prevented because of AFCIs!!

Maybe its out there but i havent found it!

The problem is that most fires do not start in new homes, they start in the older ones, and AFCI's are installed in new homes, if they had required GFCI's for everything I would not have a problem with that as they are inexpensive & they work, AFCI's did not work as claimed when 1st adopted & to my knowledge still doesn't, so yes I think they are snake oil, but they are required & so have to use them like it or not. The idea behind them is good but needs more tweaking before jamming it down our throats.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

The problem is that most fires do not start in new homes, they start in the older ones, and AFCI's are installed in new homes, if they had required GFCI's for everything I would not have a problem with that as they are inexpensive & they work, AFCI's did not work as claimed when 1st adopted & to my knowledge still doesn't, so yes I think they are snake oil, but they are required & so have to use them like it or not. The idea behind them is good but needs more tweaking before jamming it down our throats.

Exactly!

 

[ddawg16]

I had to install AFCI's for my addition.

I have run a majority of my power tools off all 3 AFCI ckt's without a single trip. I even shorted a wire a couple of months ago...and it worked exactly as it should. Compound miter saw, skill saw, shop vac....nothing caused a problem.

I have NEVER had any false trips.

But....I did have one trip when I was installing a GFCI on an outside wall. I pigtailed off the bedroom ckt since it was so close. As I see it, if I'm using the outlet outside, chances are nothing is going on in the bedroom.

The moment I hit the reset button on the GFCI it tripped the AFCI. I replaced the GFCI. Worked for 2 min and then tripped. It ended up being a broken wire in the back of the box. Insulation was intact but the wire was broken. I couple measure voltage...but 'any' load caused a trip. The AFCI worked exactly as designed. It detected the intermittent connection.

So....if someone is getting false trips, start checking your connections.

Do what I do....take a voltmeter and plug it into an outlet. Then plug an iron in.
Before you turn on the iron, note the voltage. Then turn on the iron and note the change.
Depending on the length of wire, your voltage drop should be anywhere from 1 to maybe 4 volts.

If it's more and/or the reading bounces around, start looking for bad connections. In my house, the end of the longest run is less than a 4 v drop with a 10a load.

 

[Zeke]

I had to install AFCI's for my addition.

I have run a majority of my power tools off all 3 AFCI ckt's without a single trip. I even shorted a wire a couple of months ago...and it worked exactly as it should. Compound miter saw, skill saw, shop vac....nothing caused a problem.

I have NEVER had any false trips.

But....I did have one trip when I was installing a GFCI on an outside wall. I pigtailed off the bedroom ckt since it was so close. As I see it, if I'm using the outlet outside, chances are nothing is going on in the bedroom.

The moment I hit the reset button on the GFCI it tripped the AFCI. I replaced the GFCI. Worked for 2 min and then tripped. It ended up being a broken wire in the back of the box. Insulation was intact but the wire was broken. I couple measure voltage...but 'any' load caused a trip. The AFCI worked exactly as designed. It detected the intermittent connection.

So....if someone is getting false trips, start checking your connections.

Do what I do....take a voltmeter and plug it into an outlet. Then plug an iron in.
Before you turn on the iron, note the voltage. Then turn on the iron and note the change.
Depending on the length of wire, your voltage drop should be anywhere from 1 to maybe 4 volts.

If it's more and/or the reading bounces around, start looking for bad connections. In my house, the end of the longest run is less than a 4 v drop with a 10a load.

Good info. I had a nuisance intermittent connection in a light fixture. It was on the neutral pigtail and the wire to the fixture itself. The next fixture on the string worked perfectly.

So, I guess no love there from an AFCI.

Or is there?

 

[C96]

so....if someone is getting false trips, start checking your connections.

↑↑ this ↑↑

 

[JohnX14]

I got that. The wording in the section was changed to "devices" as I mentioned above. Anything that is wired to the circuit is a device AFAIK. .

They didn't change the wording from outlets to devices. They added the phrase "or device" to the original wording that stated "All 120-volt, single-phase 15- and 20- ampere branch circuits supplying outlets or devices......"

It doesn't really change the scope of the requirement.

 

[woodzy]

I just built a home in SE Michigan. I talked to the inspector before we started the wiring and he only required them (AFCI) in sleeping rooms. So I have three breakers, one for each bedroom. These supply power to the outlets and lights. The smoke detectors in these rooms did not need to be on a AFCI circuit. All rooms have ceiling fans and dimmer for lights and not trips yet.