T12 vs. T8 vs. T5 vs. LED Analysis

[DBordello]

I am thinking about redoing the light in my garage. My garage is approximately 25'x25', with a 10' tall ceiling. The walls and ceiling are white drywall.

I am targeting 100 Lumens/SF (based on a ballpark number I read here). Therefore, I compared my T12, T8, T5 and LED options. The florescent options are based on Home Depot pricing. The LED option is based on a Costco solution. While, the fixtures and bulbs get more expensive as the bulb gets smaller, the light output increases. Therefore, I calculated the number of fixtures required for constant light output. See my calcs below:



A couple of conclusions:

• The florescent options are all similar in cost. The LED option is significantly more expensive.
• The T5HO option requires the fewest fixtures, simplifying installation.
• The T5HO option is the most energy efficient florescent option. The LED option is 8% more energy efficient.

Therefore, the T5HO option seems like the way to go. It is the easiest to install, and is only slightly more money up front. Additionally the LED option doesn't really make sense at this time.

However, I am sure there are other factors I am not considering. For example the LED lights are getting great reviews.

Any glaring (pun intended) errors in my methodology? Thoughts/comments/insights?

 

[Charles (in GA)]

T12 should not even be a consideration.

 

[tarbellb]

For me the LED is very alluring due to the temps in my garage (Denver CO). I dont heat my garage all the time, so when I turn on my lamps they are weak, LED are instant full power.

So for me, LED have that added benefit. Ive heard that some of the new T series ballast have instant full power?

 

[GS-Louie]

This looks interesting but I see a few missing items in the box.
1. What is the cost to power the lights as configured?
2. Are the fluorescent lights and ballasts low temp compatible?
3. What is the "cost" of the slow start and longer time to reach full brightness on the fluorescent?
4. What is the cost to maintain the lights - bulb replacement, ballast replacement, early replacement due to dimming?
5. What is the light spread of the fixtures? The T5 option needs 7 fixtures, the LED needs 17. It would seem to me that 17 fixtures would get the light where you want it easier. It could also allow more lamps to be turned off if you don't need all the light output.

Interesting thought process. I have done quite a few things like this to see what the real costs would be. Sometimes that can have unexpected outcomes.

Anyway, thanks for your time doing this. It is definitely something to think about.

I have one of the LED lights that I plan to try in different locations to see how it looks. Others seem to say that they are much brighter so the number needed may be less.

Lou

 

[cybrdyke]

There are errors in your chart.
T8 lamps although rated at 2850 lumens, use a ballast that has a .88 ballast factor. 2850 x .88 = 2508 lumens. The fixture itself is only 75% efficient, photometrically. 2508 x .75 =1881 total delivered lumens.
Also, 2 T8 lamps driven by an electronic ballast only uses 59 watts, not 64.
A 2 lamp T12 fixture uses 96 watts, unless you are using energy savings versions of lamps and ballasts. This point is moot as this technology has mostly been banned by the government. Do NOT consider T12's.
The T5HO's use a ballast with a 1.0 ballast factor, but will also have a 75 - 80% fixture efficiency. A 2 lamp T5HO fixture uses 118 watts, not 108.
As el-cheapo junky LED fixtures go, the Costco one is right in there. It's certainly not anything a professional would consider using. It'll light..and maybe for a garage it's ok. Assuming that the data they report is correct (ugh), the lumens they claim are 100% delivered. So, you see, it's nearly twice as bright as the T8. Hmmm...
Plug these figures back into the chart and see if it still looks the same.
CD

 

[DBordello]

For me the LED is very alluring due to the temps in my garage (Denver CO). I dont heat my garage all the time, so when I turn on my lamps they are weak, LED are instant full power.

So for me, LED have that added benefit. Ive heard that some of the new T series ballast have instant full power?

Fair enough, harder to quantify

 

[DBordello]

Okay, more information calls for a new spreadsheet. I moved to Google Docs to allow for easier editing:

Spreadsheet

A couple of comments:

• Ignoring the T12 option, all options have a similar 10 year cost.
• The LEDs do not have a much longer life than the T5 bulbs. Therefore, their annual consumable cost is much higher. However, this is negated by the reduced energy cost.

It really comes down to what configuration would work the best. Would it be better to have 18 or 9 fixtures? One is easier to install, the other probably has better distribution.

 

[DBordello]

I have one of the LED lights that I plan to try in different locations to see how it looks. Others seem to say that they are much brighter so the number needed may be less.

Lou

Interesting, please let us know.

 

[cybrdyke]

Better. Lumens per fixture in T8's didn't change though. Should be about 3700-ish.
What's the 9.93 in annual consumables from the LED fixture?

One thing to consider:
Life ratings on Fluorescent lamps is a 50% mortality rating. In other words, after 35,000 hours, one half of your T5HO (not T5) lamps are dead. Kaput. It's not the same with LEDs. With LEDs, the life rating is the length of time until the diodes have dimmed 30%, or in other words, they're still 70% as bright as the day you installed them. So, after 50,000 hours, your LED lights are still 70% full light output. Big difference.
CD

 

[blackedout12v]

led lights are efficient, but i would be more concerned of the driver(ballast for led) failing before the diodes themself. t5ho is great also but are more applicable for higher ceiling heights than yours, IIRC 15-25 ft. IMO t-8 with a good reflector would be your best bet, better for ceiling heights like yours. lumen per watt is very minimal between t8 and t5ho

 

[Showkey]

The $40 T5 and LED seems too cheap..............when you start shopping and trying to compare. It is not easy to compare the actual output and fixture quality. I settled on T8 for now with T5 running a close second. Thinking LED is not quite ready for prime time.......needs a couple more years to get the cost down.

The fixture cost the spreadsheet are not representive of what might actually use. 4 bulb units change things a little. That twin bulb T5 is lame with no reflector at $40. T5 really need the polished reflector to get the true light output to the work area.

These two might be a better comparison $90 and $50 respectively ???? :

http://t.homedepot.com/p/Lithonia-L...ut-Fluorescent-High-Bay-IBC-454-MV/202838871/

http://t.homedepot.com/p/Lithonia-L...y-Fluorescent-Shoplight-1284GRD-RE/202968125/

Keeping with the Home Depot shopping theme this $100 40 watt LED might also be a good comparison :

http://t.homedepot.com/p/Lithonia-L...ay-LED-Cable-Mount-Shoplight-1292L/204759059/

 

[Charles (in GA)]

That twin bulb T5 is lame with no reflector at $40. T5 really need the polished reflector to get the true light output to the work area.

The fixtures with the highly polished aluminum reflectors, such as the Lithonia I Beam, and designed for high bay installations. Lithonia and others also make the same basic fixtures (along with a multitude of other designs) with white painted reflectors, for "low bay" use, where the light needs to be spread more and not so focused.

As with any other fluorescent, the T5HO doesn't "need" the polished reflector to be effective, it simply needs it to get the light anywhere from 20 to 100 ft away.

Where I work we have the Lithonia I Beam high bay design, with light sensors to turn them off when not needed, and with 380v-460v ballasts. They are installed about 100 ft off the floor and the light from them is phenomenal.

I have T5HO strips mounted over my workbench, and while they do have a good amount of glare when installed that low, its not unbearable. I did however, install slip on lenses on the fixtures, mostly because I could see a need for them to reduce glare, and to prevent broken bulbs, but I only installed them because I was able to buy the 8 pieces of lens that I needed for ninety cents each at the Habitat ReStore. They are not even Lithonia lenses, but they fit, so I used them.

At ten to 12 ft installed height, I think the T5HO strips with open bulbs would be great.

Charles

 

[Showkey]

^^^^^^^^^^^

You are correct low bay fixture would be better if your ceiling in under 12-16 feet.

I do think reflectors help get the light to the work area, they cost more but are worth the cost even on T8 fixtures. My T8 fixtures have full reflectors.
In a different shop I installed polished shades on a compact fluorescent bulbs tripling the light to the work area. ( measure with a light meter ). Lighting the ceiling is wasted when it could be on the work area whether it is bench or shop floor.

 

[scoob8000]

No matter how I weigh all these options myself I keep coming back to T8.

led lights are efficient, but i would be more concerned of the driver(ballast for led) failing before the diodes themself.

My thoughts exactly..

Have you weighed in LED retrofit tubes as an option? Maybe even just a couple of them to get your light output up when it's sub freezing.

 

[damienga15de]

T5 is all I will install now apart from in work we have to run led retrofits as we try to have as little glass in the food prep areas as possible.

 

[cybrdyke]

Lighting the ceiling is wasted when it could be on the work area whether it is bench or shop floor.

That's so wrong. Reflected light is necessary to control contrast levels and to reduce the difference in foot candles between the spots directly under the lights and the spots not directly under the lights. That's why the better lighting applications will have white ceilings and walls...to eliminate "pools" of light on a surface. Also, there is a phenomenon called the "cave effect" which makes lighting uncomfortable when there is no light on the ceiling.
Yes, reflectors focus light and they have many uses. General illumination of a garage floor is not one of them.

 

[cybrdyke]

T5 is all I will install now apart from in work we have to run led retrofits as we try to have as little glass in the food prep areas as possible.

Not calling you out, per se, but the correct lingo is T5HO. There is another lamp that it a T5 and it gets confusing when one is called the other. Alot of folks make this mistake, heck even Home Depot screws it up in their descriptions.

To say "T5 is all I will install" is kinda like saying "I will only drive Cadillacs".
They make all those different kinds of lamps because they all have a place where they are the best choice.
CD

 

[Showkey]

That's so wrong. Also, there is a phenomenon called the "cave effect" which makes lighting uncomfortable when there is no light on the ceiling.
Yes, reflectors focus light and they have many uses. General illumination of a garage floor is not one of them.

So your saying the T5 HO reflector fixture is all wrong for shop use....

The ceiling is not dark in any of these applications ..........
Guess the lighting consultant that increased the light on the shop floor and cut the power bill I half had his head up his *ss. ( fixture, bulb and auto off saved the money).

some guys hanging out here might have a cave they need lit.

But T5 HO for a small shop low ceiling might not work for cost reasons alone......and high bay fixtures are not the best choice.

 

[motofool33]

if i was looking into LED's at all id Call Big *** Lights, they quote me less then what those costco ones cost for 20,000 Lumen lights(one fixture 20k each).

 

[falcon64]

What about these?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/10PC-4-FT-4...78?pt=US_Light_Bulbs&var=&hash=item418c019a8a

 

[blackedout12v]

a lighting retailer once assured me that powder coat white reflectors were only a few percent shy of the miro4 reflectors,like 91%vs95% in reflected light. said the polished reflectors were more or less a trick to the eye,and a lot of cost occurred on these fixtures are the polished reflectors. I personally like the shiny reflectors and they are somewhat more efficient,and they do work well.

 

[Showkey]

What about these?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/10PC-4-FT-4...78?pt=US_Light_Bulbs&var=&hash=item418c019a8a

The wording, grammar and lack for Ebay history is scary.

There are going to be more of these types of bulbs coming to market. As mentioned by others in prior posts the bulb drivers are going to be the first failure point.
With the costs coming down these claims of long life, superior light output and long warranties are suspect at best.

Best to wait 2-3 years. The big players will get the cost down and quality issues resolved. They also will have UL listings, customer service and a real warranty. There is no need to rush into these bulbs given the prices ( cost vs lumens vs energy used) and possible quality risks.

We have seen this happen in the 40-60-75-100 watt LED replacements. Costs have dropped in half. Color and temperature issues have been fixed.......But the real cheap bulbs are having premature driver failure.

 

[Autorotica]

if i was looking into LED's at all id Call Big *** Lights, they quote me less then what those costco ones cost for 20,000 Lumen lights(one fixture 20k each).

Online the Bigasslights.com light is $399 per fixture. It would take 5.4 Costco lights to get to 20,000 lumens. 5.4 times 39.99 comes to $216.16 per fixture

Did you have a discount code or is there someone in particular to speak with to buy the Bigasslights for less than $216 per unit?

Chris

 

[damienga15de]

Not calling you out, per se, but the correct lingo is T5HO. There is another lamp that it a T5 and it gets confusing when one is called the other. Alot of folks make this mistake, heck even Home Depot screws it up in their descriptions.

To say "T5 is all I will install" is kinda like saying "I will only drive Cadillacs".
They make all those different kinds of lamps because they all have a place where they are the best choice.
CD

We only have 2 types of t5, warm white and cool white I presume that we only get high output as there damn bright. Different parts of the world different lingo / products.

Is there a t5lo

 

[cybrdyke]

So your saying the T5 HO reflector fixture is all wrong for shop use....

The ceiling is not dark in any of these applications ..........
Guess the lighting consultant that increased the light on the shop floor and cut the power bill I half had his head up his *ss. ( fixture, bulb and auto off saved the money).

some guys hanging out here might have a cave they need lit.

But T5 HO for a small shop low ceiling might not work for cost reasons alone......and high bay fixtures are not the best choice.

Here's what I'm saying...
The OP has a 25x25x10 with white ceilings and walls. These ceilings and walls are reflective surfaces. Lighting designers rely these parameters in their calculations, as well as floor reflectance. The reflective surfaces help eliminate the hot spots and dark spots on the task level. They also help reduce shadows throughout the space.
YOU are suggesting that the OP use reflectors in this space to focus light onto something...I'm not sure what...and to not worry about the reflectance of the walls and ceiling, which is just wrong.
Yes, if a lighting consultant (which carries no real weight in my world) suggests using reflectors in a 10' ceiling garage to focus light into pools on the floor then he DOES have his head up his ***.
As far as cave effect, just google 'cave effect lighting' and when you're done reading the 400 million hits, you'll better understand it.
The rest of the information in your post was pretty spot on.

CD

 

[Msliechty]

You should upload the excel file for others to use.

 

[motofool33]

are you figuring in the cost of the electrical wiring/Boxes to run to so many fixtures?

if i could go with single units that cover a larger area less wiring would be good.


im also curious to see if you could put one of those big *** lights with the wide spread lense to cover more area to similate multiple smaller fixtures.

 

[rancherbill]

You should upload the excel file for others to use.

He already did.

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4469938&postcount=7

 

[Msliechty]

He already did.

Thanks I should have read through the end before commenting.

ML

 

[Kevin C]

[*]The LEDs do not have a much longer life than the T5 bulbs. Therefore, their annual consumable cost is much higher. However, this is negated by the reduced energy cost.

The life of the LED die will vary a lot depending on a number of factors.

• Current Density
• Die Temperature
• Manufacturing Process
• Process Control of the Wafer
• Wirebond Integrity
• Die Encapsulant

The last four items should be a given assuming the manufacturer has a clue.

Current density is a big one. LED dies are not cheap, so to control costs some manufacturers try and keep the power to the die to the high side of the operating range and use less LED's or smaller dies. As you increase the current, you increase the temperature.

Drop the current in half and the dies life expectancy increases as lumen depreciation decreases ( as does the temperature of the die).

I remember using the Arrhenius equation to help model die life. Not sure if thats still used or not. Basicly, the life was too long to practically qualify new LED's so we would run them hard and at an elevated temperature. With the data from output degradation and failure rates under more severe conditions, we used the Arrhenius equation to predict the operating life under normal conditions. Typically there are two time constants, one is temperature the other is current density.

Short story... LED's can be designed to have a very, very long life (50,000 +++ hours). I would not expect bargain fixtures to last as long. This is also application dependent. If the fixture lasts 15 to 20 years at your usage levels, there its hard to make a compelling argument to spend 2X more to get a longer life expectancy. Its a different story if the fixture is run 24-7.

 

[blackedout12v]

We only have 2 types of t5, warm white and cool white I presume that we only get high output as there damn bright. Different parts of the world different lingo / products.

Is there a t5lo

there is regular t5 which is around 2700 lumens and 28 watts per 48" bulb

there is t5ho that are 5000 lumens and 54 watts per 48" bulb

there is t5vho that is 7500 lumens and 95 watts per 48" bulb

the higher the wattage=less lumens per watt but light bulb intensity goes up with the higher wattage=better light penetration

 

[Showkey]

Here's what I'm saying...
The OP has a 25x25x10 with white ceilings and walls. These ceilings and walls are reflective surfaces. Lighting designers rely these parameters in their calculations, as well as floor reflectance. The reflective surfaces help eliminate the hot spots and dark spots on the task level. They also help reduce shadows throughout the space.
YOU are suggesting that the OP use reflectors in this space to focus light onto something...I'm not sure what...and to not worry about the reflectance of the walls and ceiling, which is just wrong.
Yes, if a lighting consultant (which carries no real weight in my world) suggests using reflectors in a 10' ceiling garage to focus light into pools on the floor then he DOES have his head up his ***.
As far as cave effect, just google 'cave effect lighting' and when you're done reading the 400 million hits, you'll better understand it.
The rest of the information in your post was pretty spot on.

CD

The light consult was at work with high ceiling.
the cave effect is interesting but does not apply to my work or home shop.

I am not sure what the OP going to be doing in his garage ? But in my situation I wanted a measured 750 LUX or 70 for-candles on the top of my table saw. My work benches for detail work 800-1000 LUX or 90 foot candles on the bench top.

I got to these measured values using T8 fixtures with reflectors but no lenses.

All of these lighting questions and answer are very dependent on the use. General lighting is very different than detailed assembly work. Measured light values on the work surface or user comfort level is the only real critical factors. If we are going to compare fixture or bulbs measured values is the only fair or right way to compare.

I do not care if the rafter area above my saw is darker or less lit than the work area.

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(before we go off on meter accuracy I am only using it to compare onE reading to another and the over all accuracy is close enough)

Want or need a 1000 LUX on a bench top with 9' foot ceiling takes 6 T8 bulbs with reflector fixture in the general area above the bench. Note the bench is 10 feet long.

 

[dmoore]

Back in the spring while I was in China visiting our factories, one of our vendors was asking if we might be interested in T8 LED replacement bulbs and so we said - sure, send some over with our order so we can replace some of our standard, electronic ballast T8 bulbs with them.

We started by measuring the current load on our main assembly/packing area branch circuit which has 36 standard T8 lamps at 8.72 amps - at 120v, about 1,046 watts. We then removed all the bulbs and re-wired each fixture, a process that took about 10 minutes per 4 bulbs so that the ballast was out of the loop.

After replacing all the bulbs, we re-measured the load again and came up with 3.67 amps, about 440 watts. A total savings of about 58% with the same or just slightly more light (these were 5,000 K).

Since the lights in this area are on about 17.5 hours per day when we run two shifts, we end up with about 111 hours per week (including the weekends) or about 49 KW/h per week or about 196 KW/h per month. At our power rated of about .10 cents per KW/h, we are now saving about $20 per month!

Oddly enough, even though the lumen count on the LEDs was lower than the florescent bulbs, the brightness is exactly the same and since we purchased the same color temp, they don't appear any different than our T8's. Another side benefit is that since we live in Texas and this area is 72 degrees most days with AC, the LED bulbs have pretty much no heat output compared to the fluorescents.

 

[Shiftless]

It seems to me that a lot of us are pulling this whole " 100 lumens per sq. ft." idea from online sources and not considering what is done in one guys garage. That level of lighting results in about 1000 lux which is what is recommended for hospital operating rooms. 1000 lux is also close to being outdoors on an overcast day. Is that much light needed on every sq. ft. of a garage?
Measure what you have now and think about how much more you need. I bought one Costco LED fixture with the 3200 lumens and tried it out with an extension cord over my workbench. It was TOO bright with too much glare. I'm back to incandescent floodlight bulbs over the bench. (low ceilings are the problem...just 7 feet)
Go ahead and put lots of light (task lighting) over your workbenches and stationary tools but you might want to rethink putting all those light fixtures covering your ceiling.

 

[LutzTD]

another consideration for the bottom dollar. If you have the space and dont mind troffer lights, they can be had for pennies on the dollar on the used market. I bought 37 4 bulb t5ho fixtures with diffusers for $250. I few of the diffusers and frames were broken during transit, but I got all of the bulbs as well. My net was 35 complete assemblies and 2 with no covers. Thats $6.75 each. and with a wipe down they are brand new........

 

[My Old Tools]

My experience with Costco LEDs is that you don't need 100 lumens per SF. Mine is half that (43 lumens/SF) and is bright as daylight. LED's are directional and put a higher percentage of their light down on the floor. I have 14 fixtures lighting 1200SF and two more lighting a 600 SF loft area. Half of that area is open to the roofline, 12' sidewalls and 22' peak, so the lights are at about 16', 20'. That 600SF has 8 fixtures. The rest is under the loft, 10' ceiling. That 600SF has 6 fixtures.

 

[ddawg16]

I have 18 6" cans in the 1st floor of my garage. Right now I have CFL's in them. It's been about 6 years and they refuse to die.

The issue with T8 or T5....your stuck with a T8 or T5 bulb.

LED? There will always be an LED bulb that will fit an Edison socket.

So....20 years from now....I have no doubts I will be able to put in an LED or what ever new technology has come along.

In other words.....my lighting is future proofed.

 

[sands35]

A table saw is like a gun. Empty the chamber or put the blade down when not in use.

 

[sands35]

It seems to me that a lot of us are pulling this whole " 100 lumens per sq. ft." idea from online sources and not considering what is done in one guys garage. That level of lighting results in about 1000 lux which is what is recommended for hospital operating rooms. 1000 lux is also close to being outdoors on an overcast day. Is that much light needed on every sq. ft. of a garage?
Measure what you have now and think about how much more you need. I bought one Costco LED fixture with the 3200 lumens and tried it out with an extension cord over my workbench. It was TOO bright with too much glare. I'm back to incandescent floodlight bulbs over the bench. (low ceilings are the problem...just 7 feet)
Go ahead and put lots of light (task lighting) over your workbenches and stationary tools but you might want to rethink putting all those light fixtures covering your ceiling.

Yup. I gave up pointing that out a year or so ago.

 

[lakeroadster]

A table saw is like a gun. Empty the chamber or put the blade down when not in use.

Never bring a table saw to a gun fight....

There will always be an LED bulb that will fit an Edison socket.

In other words.....my lighting is future proofed.

Great Ideology