Coleman LP Canisters Refill or Toss?

[MDSPHOTO]

We got a patio heater that runs on the small green Coleman LP tanks. Do you just toss them when they are empty or do you refill them?

 

[koditten]

They are designed to be disposable. Toss them unless you want to refill them yourself. Not really worth it if you use less than 5-10 per year.

 

[rsanter]

They make an adapter that screws onto a propane tank. You then thread the small green canister to that and open the valve
Quick, easy, cheap

Bob

 

[CNGsaves]

Time to convert the patio heater for 20 lb BBQ grill style bottle of LPG (propane) if you have the little 1 lb bottles coming out your ears !

Ironic that topic of how to dispose all those 1 lb propane canisters hasn't been covered on GJ that I can recall. I've got a few and now have skinny ones from copper plumbing sweating. Any businesses take those back to re-cycle or melt down the steel??

What happens if these empty LPG bottles get thrown in steel recycle bins??

 

[malibu101]

A hunting cabin in the woods that I go to has no electric.
Propane lanterns are our primary lighting. We go through quite a few cans per trip.
We heat with propane and always have enough 20 pound propane tanks on hand.

We got a brass adapter thingy to fill the little cans from the big tank. Works perfect although I don't think it ends up as full as a new can would be. But it saves us the cost and hassle of packing a bunch of cans in and out.
A quick glance at the seals on the can and adapter look good and have at it. I don't feel it is a deadly unsafe thing to do.

 

[rlitman]

I don't feel it is a deadly unsafe thing to do.

It can be, though the way you're doing it, it's probably safe.

But disposable cans are disposable for a reason. From my own experiences, half the time I pull a not-yet-empty can from a device (stove, lantern, torch, etc), the valve starts to leak. They're also much thinner walled, so they are less tolerant to corrosion.
FYI, it is also illegal to transport a refilled disposable can.

If you're filling it, and using it at the same site, if you use it until empty, refill it and put it right back into use, if you're not storing a bunch of refilled canisters, and if you visually inspect the cans for damage/corrosion/leaking between fillings, I'm sure you'll be fine. But if it were my cabin, I'd use kerosene lanterns.

Back to the patio heater: it makes much more sense to me to get an adapter that lets you run it straight off the 20lb tank.

 

[The Cobbler]

I bought an adapter to refill the canisters . put the canister in the freezer for several hrs , and the 20 lb tank warm. invert the 20 lb tank when all hooked up and open the valve & walk away for 30 minutes. it does work, but I think you only get 50 to 75 % fill. never had a valve leak after but no doubt it is somethiong to check after re filling

 

[rlitman]

Starting with a cold cylinder helps you get more liquid transfer. I refill my paintball cylinders like this, but they are not made to be disposable.

 

[MDSPHOTO]

Thanks guys for the info. Sounds like I'll just take them to the recycle center as I don't want the hassle of refilling.

 

[malibu101]

............
.......
But if it were my cabin, I'd use kerosene lanterns.
.

Wick type lanterns are our secondary/outside/nightlight light source.
They are used in conjunction with the propane inside, mainly because they are nowhere near as bright as the mantle type propane, plus the propane lantern throws quite a bit of heat inside our small cabin.

Cabin rule-- Last one out for a smoke or a pee - Blow out the porch lanterns.

And on what you said about seals--
Yeah the (what looks like Teflon) O-ring on the disposable cylinders degrades after quite a few uses.

 

[rlitman]

You're right, the wick lanterns are nowhere near as bright as a mantle lantern.

I don't own any, but there are mantle kerosene lanterns, both in pressure and wick style.
The pressure pump style are like a Coleman white gas lantern, but are slightly different so they can burn kerosene. But they're no fun to light. The wick style is called an Aladdin lamp. It uses a wick to send fumes up which are catalytically burned on the tubular mantle. Kind of like the top stage of a catalytic kerosene heater.

Anyway, kerosene and mantles are a very finicky combination, and I agree that if you need the brightness of a mantle, nothing beats the convenience of propane.

There also exist refillable 1lb propane cylinders. I just saw a set of four on eBay for $150 (with a filling adapter).

 

[theoldwizard1]

I bought an adapter to refill the canisters . put the canister in the freezer for several hrs , and the 20 lb tank warm. invert the 20 lb tank when all hooked up and open the valve & walk away for 30 minutes.

Basically correct. The key is the "empty" bottle needs to be "cold" and the "full" bottle needs to be warm, and they need to stay that way during the whole transfer ! If you allow the bottle to stabilize at the same temperature, you will have 2 partially filled bottles.

Simple solution is an adapter on a hose. Put the full bottle in the sunshine or a hot water bath. Put the empty bottle in the shade and/or in an ice water bath.

I don't think turning the 20 lb tank over does anything anymore with the OPD valve.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Starting with a cold cylinder helps you get more liquid transfer. .

Actually, the propane is transferred in a gaseous state. Once inside the cold bottle it will turn back to mostly liquid.

 

[toyotadriver]

Basically correct. The key is the "empty" bottle needs to be "cold" and the "full" bottle needs to be warm, and they need to stay that way during the whole transfer ! If you allow the bottle to stabilize at the same temperature, you will have 2 partially filled bottles.

Simple solution is an adapter on a hose. Put the full bottle in the sunshine or a hot water bath. Put the empty bottle in the shade and/or in an ice water bath.

I don't think turning the 20 lb tank over does anything anymore with the OPD valve.

You need to invert the 20 lb tank to get liquid into the 1 lb bottle. All my 20 lb tanks have OPD valves and it still works.

I do freeze my 1lb bottles but the real secret is to get the 20 lb bottle as warm as possible. That then uses propane vapor pressure to push the max amount of liquid propane into the 1 lb bottle.

 

[toyotadriver]

Actually, the propane is transferred in a gaseous state. Once inside the cold bottle it will turn back to mostly liquid.

Actually, as mentioned, if you invert the 20 lb bottle, you'll be transferring liquid propane.

 

[toyotadriver]

I bought an adapter to refill the canisters . put the canister in the freezer for several hrs , and the 20 lb tank warm. invert the 20 lb tank when all hooked up and open the valve & walk away for 30 minutes. it does work, but I think you only get 50 to 75 % fill. never had a valve leak after but no doubt it is somethiong to check after re filling

If you can get the 20 lb tank warm, you'll maximize your fill quantity. I've been able to get close to 1 lb of propane into a 1lb bottle by heating the propane tank as warm as I feel comfortable doing. Warming the 20lb bottle increases the vapor pressure in the bottle, giving you more pressure to help force more propane into the smaller bottle.

 

[rlitman]

Actually, the propane is transferred in a gaseous state. Once inside the cold bottle it will turn back to mostly liquid.

NO. If you transfer gas, you'll get maybe 1% of the fill done before the pressure equalizes and you'll still have an empty disposable cylinder.

You need to invert the 20 lb tank to get liquid into the 1 lb bottle. All my 20 lb tanks have OPD valves and it still works.

I do freeze my 1lb bottles but the real secret is to get the 20 lb bottle as warm as possible. That then uses propane vapor pressure to push the max amount of liquid propane into the 1 lb bottle.

What he said.

 

[CNGsaves]

^ ^ This. You are transferring LIQUID Propane Gas (LPG). The frozen receiver bottle coupled with the warm source bottle will get best results.

The gaseous state of LPG is what you burn, but fuel itself is liquid. At refill vendors they have pump so moving the liquid is easy.

 

[theoldwizard1]

NO. If you transfer gas, you'll get maybe 1% of the fill done before the pressure equalizes and you'll still have an empty disposable cylinder.

You need to take some chemistry/physics classes !

I got this chart from here

90°F is easy to achieve on a warm sunny day. A 5 gallon bucket of ice water will keep your "empty" 1 lb bottle below 60°F giving you at least a 50 psi pressure differential. As soon as the gas hits the cold bottle it will condense. Yes, transferring liquid is faster.


This a pretty good video on the topic and it gets rid of the need to chill the bottle !

NO Pre-Chilling! FULLY Refill a 1lb Propane Bottle

 

[toyotadriver]

You need to take some chemistry/physics classes !

I got this chart from here

90°F is easy to achieve on a warm sunny day. A 5 gallon bucket of ice water will keep your "empty" 1 lb bottle below 60°F giving you at least a 50 psi pressure differential. As soon as the gas hits the cold bottle it will condense. Yes, transferring liquid is faster.


This a pretty good video on the topic and it gets rid of the need to chill the bottle !

NO Pre-Chilling! FULLY Refill a 1lb Propane Bottle

Note that in this video they invert the 20 lb propane bottle.

If you want to get your 1lb bottle nearly full of LIQUID propane, you HAVE to invert the big bottle. You will NOT get much propane in your 1lb bottle if you do NOT invert the bottle and your method of putting the big bottle in the sun and the small bottle in an ice bath is pretty silly....and still won't get the max liquid transfer unless you invert the big bottle.....which is what you need if you are filling small bottles from a larger bottle. It would work...as long as you invert the big bottle....not sure why you would do such a thing since the tried and true method works so well............

When using my fill adapter, I don't manipulate the small valve like your video but I'm sure it will work fine....it's basically what they do when they fill our bigger bottles with the pump at the propane fill places. I just warm up the bigger propane tank with a Mr. Heater radiant heater till the bottle is as warm as I feel comfortable. While doing so, I put my bottles to be filled in my deep freeze. Once I'm ready to begin filling, I bring the bottles out one at a time and fill them....turning the 20lb bottle upside down to fill them.

Something to be aware of....as you fill the smaller bottles, the bigger bottle will cool down from the release of propane....so if you want to maximize your filling of the 1lb bottles, you need to only fill a few bottles at a time and then re-warm the 20 lb bottle. I usually only fill 2-3 at a time.

With the above method, I get about 90-95% fill compared to a new bottle.

I would also be hesitant to use the video method because it would be easy to over fill the smaller bottle. The propane places weigh the 20lb bottles while filling them...but we can't weigh them when filling with the adapter. Using the method I use, it is essentially impossible to overfill the bottle. With the video method, it would be quite easy to overfill a small bottle....which could lead to several problems....some of which could be quite dangerous. The small bottles are safe with the amount of propane that they come with when new. But, if a small bottle was to be overfilled and then left in the sun....would likely have some problems. But, I did enjoy the video regardless.

 

[theoldwizard1]

If you want to get your 1lb bottle nearly full of LIQUID propane, you HAVE to invert the big bottle.

You can not fill a propane bottle 100% full of liquid propane. There will always be SOME gas !

I did say transferring liquid is faster.

You will NOT get much propane in your 1lb bottle if you do NOT invert the bottle and your method of putting the big bottle in the sun and the small bottle in an ice bath is pretty silly
.
.
.
I just warm up the bigger propane tank with a Mr. Heater radiant heater till the bottle is as warm as I feel comfortable.

First, you are using the same principle of pressure differential that I am referencing.

Second, many people might think putting a pressurized container of flammable gas in front of a heat source is kind of silly also. A bucket of ice water lasts a long time and requires no monitoring. Sure you need to buy a refill kit with a hose for a few bucks more.

But, if a small bottle was to be overfilled and then left in the sun....would likely have some problems.

Which is why there is a pressure relief valve even on the small bottles.

 

[rlitman]

You need to take some chemistry/physics classes !

ROTFL! I went to college for chemical engineering (though I am long out of that field).
You're talking out your ****, and sounding like a chemist who understands what happens in a test tube, but who cannot comprehend scaling up the same process to a batch as small as a gallon.

Filling an lp bottle through gas transfer is about as stupid as boiling water in your tea kettle, and putting your glass in an ice bath in the path of the steam to fill your cup with water. Yeah, it can be made to work, if you have a LOT of patience, but this is just not how it is done.

In the "real" world, lp cylinders are filled with liquid transfer using pumps. Barring that, a warmed siphon cylinder is used to liquid transfer to a chilled recipient, because the differential in headspace pressure allows for the fastest transfer of liquid. It fails to yield a complete fill though because the recipient cylinder headspace heats adiabatically during the transfer.

Back to your laughable charts:
On the shelf beside my desk, I have the 72nd edition of the CRC Handbook of Chemistry and Physics. I refer you to Section 5 on thermodynamic properties for the physical constants themselves, or you could look up the Enthalpy of Fusion and Enthalpy of Vaporization numbers on Wikipedia or engineeringtoolbox.com if you're feeling lazy.

The latent heat of fusion and vaporization varies a little with the temperature, so I will assume we're starting at 60F for the lp, and that the ice is melting at 1 atm of pressure.

To condense 1lb of lp (to refill your cylinder), you would need to wait until the heat from the condensing propane melts around half a pound of ice in your ice bath before the cylinder is full (assuming no heat comes from nowhere else). While this is not an impractical amount of ice, it is an impractical amount of time (and in the hours that this takes, you're sure to have melted much more ice due to heat gained from the surroundings).

 

[rlitman]

You can not fill a propane bottle 100% full of liquid propane. There will always be SOME gas !

Yes you can. Though it is an insanely bad idea. The boiling point of water is above the critical point of propane, where the really weird physics start to happen...

 

[toyotadriver]

You can not fill a propane bottle 100% full of liquid propane. There will always be SOME gas !

I did say transferring liquid is faster.


First, you are using the same principle of pressure differential that I am referencing.

Second, many people might think putting a pressurized container of flammable gas in front of a heat source is kind of silly also. A bucket of ice water lasts a long time and requires no monitoring. Sure you need to buy a refill kit with a hose for a few bucks more.



Which is why there is a pressure relief valve even on the small bottles.

Ok....you've lost me. What point are you trying to make? Or, are you just trying to defend your pointless point?

I've filled many small bottles by my posted method. How many have you filled with your method? Or, are you just theorizing about how it COULD be done?

If you want to risk your propane bottles unexpectedly venting flammable propane....then you don't understand the risks. Propane is an awesome fuel...and it's also potentially very dangerous. I would not want any propane bottles of any size venting unexpectedly...that's why there is a safety margin built in.....not a good idea to mess around with that.

 

[jwh]

Ironic that topic of how to dispose all those 1 lb propane canisters hasn't been covered on GJ that I can recall. I've got a few and now have skinny ones from copper plumbing sweating. Any businesses take those back to re-cycle or melt down the steel??

What happens if these empty LPG bottles get thrown in steel recycle bins??

Last time I checked our county recycling facility takes them on their HazMat collection days. (Monroe County NY).