how can I get this pump body off

[sgull]

I want to get this pump body off the coupling to the engine on this old portable fire pump piece of equipment. There's eight nuts I've removed from the studs of the pump body around the flange. There's a rubber gasket between the pump body and the coupling. The pump manufacturer (Darley Co.) says those nuts/studs are all that secures it so it should just be a matter of knocking it loose now. I've been trying with a board and hammer as can be seen in the one picture below, same way on the other side. I think I got one side to budge at least slightly but the other side doesn't wanna cooperate. I thought some penetrating oil might help so I applied PB Blaster to the joint and let it soak a while. Still can't seem to get it to budge off though, despite the knocking/pounding. Blurry photos below. Any tips/comments appreciated.

 

[Outlawmws]

The gasket sealer is probably gluing it together.

Use an old sacrificial wood chisel, and CAREFULLY use it like a wedge to break the seal.

 

[sgull]

I will keep that in mind. Thanks. I was really hoping to be able to maybe keep that rubber gasket intact/undamaged if I could. Because I understand they're really spendy to replace. I might pound on it some more, see what happens. Even though I already pounded on it some more already.

 

[OccupantRJ]

I keep steel wedges for this and many other purposes. They are cut from thick flat bar on a horizontal band saw by setting the saw vice on an angle which will produce a wedge shaped piece about 4 inches long, 3/8" thick, tapered to zero on the small end. Two or more of these will get it loose by sequentially tapping each wedge into the joint line a little at a time. The more wedges the better. It can not stay there with this method.

If the gasket is sheet rubber material, it can be purchased at a good hardware storebto make a new one.

 

[sgull]

Don't have access to any such handy steel wedges as you describe, or a way to make them. Maybe a few old sacrificial wood chisels will help as previously suggested. I do have some of those. Hate to wreck that gasket though.

 

[joel63]

Can't tell fully from the photos, but does the impeller have to come off from the

shaft before removing the pump casing??

 

[sgull]

Can't tell fully from the photos, but does the impeller have to come off from the shaft before removing the pump casing??

Nah. Ya hafta git that casing off before ya can git to the 'peller.

 

[sgull]

At first glance, I thought this thread was "how can I get this bump off my body"

 

[sgull]

Have you tried hammering on the studs? I'm not sure if that's advisable, but it was the first thing that popped into my head.

That was the first thing that popped into my head too. Didn't seem advisable though.

 

[rsanter]

Is there corrosion around the studs that could be holding it?
Can you double nut the studs and try to remove them, then it may be easier to knock it loose and save the gasket.
On the other hand if the gasket is that stuck I really don't think you will be able to save it. You can cut a new one out of sheet stock

Bob

 

[Fretters]

Don't have access to any such handy steel wedges as you describe, or a way to make them. Maybe a few old sacrificial wood chisels will help as previously suggested. I do have some of those. Hate to wreck that gasket though.

I personally like to use a wallpaper scraper. Wider and thinner blade than chisels, so tend to get in underneath easier and with less chance of damaging soft metals like aluminium, for example.

With regards that gasket, there are plenty ways of either making a new one else using a gasket sealant that I honestly wouldn't fart around trying to keep that intact hence making the current task harder.

You can easily cut wedges from hardwood and the like btw. Won't be as tough as metal ones obviously, but they should be man enough to get the job done once you open up a slight crack for them to get into. Either that or use some old hand planer blades.

If that's an aluminium housing with steel studs, a lot of the tightness will likely be due to the inevitable corrosion on the stud shanks where they've been in contact with the aluminium flange.

 

[sgull]

Is there corrosion around the studs that could be holding it?
Can you double nut the studs and try to remove them, then it may be easier to knock it loose and save the gasket.

Very well could be corrosion around the studs, but if there is I can't see it. I tried applying PB Blaster, as previously mentioned, to the gasketed joint (both sides) and even some onto the studs hoping it might penetrate any rust/corrosion. Let it sit quite a while then continued with my pounding but still no go. Not sure what you mean by double nut the studs and try to remove them. Perhaps I could try putting nuts on the ends of the studs and pounding on the nuts some, being careful about not damaging the stud threads. Haven't tried that yet.

 

[Fretters]

Not sure what you mean by double nut the studs and try to remove them.

Put two nuts on a stud. Tighten the two nuts up against each other, then use the spanner on the innermost nut to remove the stud.

 

[sgull]

I honestly wouldn't fart around trying to keep that intact hence making the current task harder.

Yeah, you're right about not farting around anymore. I'll at least wait overnight maybe let the PB Blaster soak until tomorrow the put nuts on the studs maybe and pound on those, see what happens. Unless that's still farting around. Also, I'll see what I can do with some sharp wedges such as planer blades or old chisels or such too.

 

[sgull]

Put two nuts on a stud. Tighten the two nuts up against each other, then use the spanner on the innermost nut to remove the stud.

I see. Yeah maybe removing the studs themselves would help free it? thanks, I'll keep that mind for sure too.

 

[whyNick?]

I personally like to use a wallpaper scraper. Wider and thinner blade than chisels, so tend to get in underneath easier and with less chance of damaging soft metals like aluminium, for example.

With regards that gasket, there are plenty ways of either making a new one else using a gasket sealant that I honestly wouldn't fart around trying to keep that intact hence making the current task harder.

You can easily cut wedges from hardwood and the like btw. Won't be as tough as metal ones obviously, but they should be man enough to get the job done once you open up a slight crack for them to get into. Either that or use some old hand planer blades.

If that's an aluminium housing with steel studs, a lot of the tightness will likely be due to the inevitable corrosion on the stud shanks where they've been in contact with the aluminium flange.

You could try one of those weird painter's putty knives. You know the kind that has the semicircular cutout on the side for cleaning paint rollers?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hyde-5-in-1...fe-Scraper-Roller-Cleaner-02970-/281271222473

They usually have a thicker blade that is sharpened on one edge. Makes a great wedge for just this sort of situation. Gentle tapping with a hammer should do it.

 

[Fretters]

I'd try to avoid pounding on it or the studs, if possible. It's easy to go from working things loose to chunks breaking off with items like that, once the hammers are out. Subtlety and patience might be frustrating on occasion, but they're far preferable to the possible alternative.

 

[Fretters]

You could try one of those weird painter's putty knives. You know the kind that has the semicircular cutout on the side for cleaning paint rollers?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hyde-5-in-1...fe-Scraper-Roller-Cleaner-02970-/281271222473

They usually have a thicker blade that is sharpened on one edge. Makes a great wedge for just this sort of situation. Gentle tapping with a hammer should do it.

Been meaning to get hold of one of those types of scraper or similar for a while to try. Each time I see one in the flesh though, they always seem to be of fairly cheap quality. Not managed to drop across one which has rocked my boat on the quality front so far.

 

[xxaler]

Looks very similar to an older style Smartturner pump we still rebuild.

Get two 1/2" bolts and nuts, two pieces of pipe, use the engine frame as a jacking point, slip the bolt into the pump, then bolt head against the stud and pump against motor frame. Loosen nut and it will separate the head.

Normally that style head should have two threaded holes somewhere around the gasket surface that you use as jacking bolts to separate them.

 

[Fretters]

Yeah maybe removing the studs themselves would help free it?

If you can get the studs out, it usually makes the job easier. You've not got any stud corrosion and binding in the mix once they're out, plus you can possibly twist/rotate the flange to try and work it free once they're not blocking rotational movement.

 

[RECox286]

Looks similar to an old C'man generator that I took apart.

There was a connecting sleeve inside (between motor and

generator) that I couldn't get access to that was corroded

together. The machine was not working due to a broken

intake (not repairable) so I just kept on hitting it, etc, until

it finally broke free. I'll bet you have a similar setup, and a

simular problem. If you are trying to save it, do be careful

about how much pressure you put on the castings. Don't be

in too much of a hurry to pull it apart. Maybe put some tension

on it with wedges, let it sit for a day, wack it a bit with a

recoiless hammer, then a little more tension...da,da, da-dum.

Good luck

Uncle Bob

 

[whyNick?]

Been meaning to get hold of one of those types of scraper or similar for a while to try. Each time I see one in the flesh though, they always seem to be of fairly cheap quality. Not managed to drop across one which has rocked my boat on the quality front so far.

I have several cheapies (maybe $3 apiece) that have held up to some real abuse. They aren't pretty but sometimes they're just the tool to get the job done.

 

[angrystroker]

Careful you do not want to wreck the rubber gasket..

 

[sgull]

Get two 1/2" bolts and nuts, two pieces of pipe, use the engine frame as a jacking point, slip the bolt into the pump, then bolt head against the stud and pump against motor frame. Loosen nut and it will separate the head.

I don't get that, at all. ^

 

[sgull]

Don't be in too much of a hurry to pull it apart. Maybe put some tension on it with wedges, let it sit for a day, wack it a bit with a
recoiless hammer, then a little more tension...da,da, da-dum.

Thinking I'll go that route, at least give it a try. Not sure what a recoiless hammer is though, pretty sure I don't have such. What, you mean like a rubber mallet?

 

[sgull]

You could try one of those weird painter's putty knives. You know the kind that has the semicircular cutout on the side for cleaning paint rollers? They usually have a thicker blade that is sharpened on one edge. Makes a great wedge for just this sort of situation. Gentle tapping with a hammer should do it.

Yeah. Seems like I recall I have at least one of those lying around. Seems worth I try. Hope I find it.

 

[sgull]

If you can get the studs out, it usually makes the job easier. You've not got any stud corrosion and binding in the mix once they're out, plus you can possibly twist/rotate the flange to try and work it free once they're not blocking rotational movement.

I can get the studs out, using the doubling up the nuts method suggested by rsanter. In fact when I was removing the nuts, one stud came out/unscrewed along with the nut because the nut was stuck to it that good. I'm thinking I could take the studs out, then maybe squirt some PB Blaster in the holes and let it sit/soak a good while, then try banging/twisting maybe work the flange free finally that way.

 

[sgull]

Careful you do not want to wreck the rubber gasket..

Hey I don't wanna fart around anymore worrying about wrecking that rubber gasket.

 

[John Timmins]

I bwelieve you have to take the end of the pump casing off to loosen the impeller nut....OR youstick a socket and extension through the suction of the pump to reach the impeller nut.

It there are no jacking bolt threaded holes I would very careful trying th drive wedges etc in the flange surfaces. Have you tried to find a drawing of this pump online ?

 

[sgull]

I bwelieve you have to take the end of the pump casing off to loosen the impeller nut....OR youstick a socket and extension through the suction of the pump to reach the impeller nut. It there are no jacking bolt threaded holes I would very careful trying th drive wedges etc in the flange surfaces. Have you tried to find a drawing of this pump online ?

Yes I can stick a socket and extension through the suction of the pump to reach the impeller nut. But that nut, which is visible through the suction opening of the pump, looks to have some kind of a cotter key business in it which seems like you'd have to have the casing removed first to be able to remove. I'm almost positive there are no jacking bolt threaded holes. I could not find a drawing of this specific early 60's model Darley pump online. I got in contact with the company and they couldn't provide me with one either. Best they could come up with is a drawing of a somewhat similar but much newer model, which is shown below. I looked it over but can't really understand it as it might compare with mine, with the nuts and studs and such I'm dealing with holding the casing to the coupler. The drawing of the newer design pump may be somewhat similar to my old pump; but even if so it doesn't provide me with any clue that helps, unless I'm just outright missing it.

 

[John Timmins]

This drawing above seems to be a completely different pump than your pictures . Can you put a piece of 2x2 wood against the impeller nut and hit it ?

The pump in the drawing could come apart that way depending how the volute (43) is mounted.

I can help you without better pictures that are in focus - sorry !

 

[sgull]

This drawing above seems to be a completely different pump than your pictures . Can you put a piece of 2x2 wood against the impeller nut and hit it ? The pump in the drawing could come apart that way depending how the volute (43) is mounted. Can help you without better pictures that are in focus - sorry !

Yeah those initial pictures were too blurry, sorry. Here's a few better ones below.
I agree that drawing seems completely different than my pictures. Yeah I could probably put a 2x2 piece of wood against the impeller and hit it. Not sure what that would accomplish though. Why do you ask? Here's a shot of that nut, with the cotter key or whatever business that is around the edges of it:

And here's an in-focus picture of the casing instead of those previous cruddy ones:

 

[Outlawmws]

That impeller is not the issue IMO. I think someone used good old fashioned Permatex Gasket sealer (the old tar-type stuff not RTV...) in there, and its glued together.

 

[lilredex]

A coupling nut in there with a short bolt, on the stud, will jack it right out of there. If you need wedges, cut from hardwood or use those for hammer handles.

 

[sgull]

That impeller is not the issue IMO. I think someone used good old fashioned Permatex Gasket sealer (the old tar-type stuff not RTV...) in there, and its glued together.

I don't really think that impeller is the issue either. Glad to hear somebody else thinks that too, at least.

 

[sgull]

A coupling nut in there with a short bolt, on the stud, will jack it right out of there.

I'm not clear at all what you mean^ Perhaps you (or someone else) could further describe/clarify/elaborate that suggestion.

 

[metaldad]

your last two pics are not what's on your drawing.
the first two pics are no good.
as outlaw stated, you're most likely fighting the sealant.
and it looks like either you removed 1 stud, or busted it.
lilred is on the right track.
put a nut on a stud (to protect it) 180 from each other.
use a rod coupling and a stud against that nut and the housing.
velly velly carefully extend the stud, putting pressure onto housings.
a little heat could help.

 

[sgull]

your last two pics are not what's on your drawing.
the first two pics are no good.
as outlaw stated, you're most likely fighting the sealant.
and it looks like either you removed 1 stud, or busted it.
lilred is on the right track.
put a nut on a stud (to protect it) 180 from each other.
use a rod coupling and a stud against that nut and the housing.
velly velly carefully extend the stud, putting pressure onto housings.
a little heat could help.

I agree the drawing doesn't jive with the actual thing I'm dealing with.
Yeah the first two pics in my initial post are pretty worthless.
If it's pretty certain I'm just fighting the sealant than at least I know what's holding it (apparently not corrosion/rust necessarily)
Yeah I removed one stud (it came out along with the nut when I was removing that nut, as I previously mentioned in one of my posts this thread).
I don't follow what lilred was describing.
I'm unclear what you mean by putting a nut on a stud 180 degrees from eachother.
I don't know what you mean by rod coupling, just don't get the rest.

 

[lilredex]

A coupling nut is a regular nut, but about 2" long, threaded all the way. Install it on the stud, and add a bolt long enough (double nutted) to reach the flange on the LHS. Back off the coupling nut and it will push out the stud on the pump body, breaking that gasketted joint.

 

[Fretters]

Not exactly the same, but this bolt, nut and sleeve, (bottom left in the photo), should give you an idea of the concept suggested. The sleeve would thread onto the stud, the bolt goes in the other end of the sleeve, (the bolt is a slip fit in the sleeve), and the nut is turned to force the bolt out from the sleeve, hence pressing against the housing and pushing the stud forwards.