Wilton Bullet Vise date stamping. show yours with or without EXP on slide

[mcmlvif100]

My two contributions. Neither one has any reference to warranty / EXP. The red 9450 is Chicago with date code of 12 - 53. The multi-colour 4 inch is Schiller Park with a date code of 6 - 69.

 

[drivesitfar]

All: thanks for posting up the slide dates on your Wilton vises and also posting pictures of your vises so we can all try to figure out the style and dating of these awesome vises.

here's one that has been talked about on the vise thread lately and the craigslist seller was nice enough to post a picture of his slide for us. it's the earliet Guar Exp date I've seen so far with June 30, 1955.

keep posting your slides and vises and it's a good time to clean up and put some new grease on your old vises if you haven't already.

 

[exmaxima1]

here's one that has been talked about on the vise thread lately and the craigslist seller was nice enough to post a picture of his slide for us. it's the earliet Guar Exp date I've seen so far with June 30, 1955.

So based on the catalog pages and info noted in that thread by KMScott, notably the 3 yr warranty on Cadet vises, do we agree the production year is 1952?

 

[Mark in Indiana]

Hey Drives,

Here is my Wilton 840 vise. It has patent pending on the body cast and a date stamp of 11-45. I understand Wilton was awarded the patent for the bullet vises in '41.
Which begs the question...was it manufactured in '45 or '40?

BTW: The last picture is how the vise looked before restoration.


Happy Trails!

 

[Mark in Indiana]

Since it reads "Pat Pending" on the vise, it would be valid IMHO to set the mfg date at 1940. Clearly by 1945 the castings read "Chicago" and the Pat Pending was gone.

BTW, do the jaws have serrations or just lines?

Hey Exmaxima1,
The jaw faces are lined.

 

[KMScott]

Here is my 12-46 with lined grooves cut in these new jaws. Has anyone seen these old swivel base vises with swivel locks instead of the acorn nuts. I came up with these 5/8 hex clamps with the 3/8:16 thread and they are tiny. This #3 vise is small, old and very tight for it's age.

 

[beltdrive]

I mostly collect the 1940's Wilton (Chicago) bullets. (Although I do have one machinist and one bullet from the 70s). Here are a few that I have restored. On numerous occasions I have had to take them to the machine shop and have the screws removed from the jaws before refinishing so that I can put new jaws on them...I need smooth (non serated) jaws for my work. My friend Kevin in Colorado makes incredible jaws for all the vintage Wiltons. The copper and green ones are No.3....the greenish gold one is a number 4....followed by a number 3 "au naturel" (it was so nice with orig paint that I did not refin)...and lastly a 2.5 inch baby. I have had several 2 inch babies but sold them on ebay after I refinished them...they are too small for my work. What fantastic quality these are! These examples are all coded to the mid and late 40s.

 

[beltdrive]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark in Indiana View Post
Here is my Wilton 840 vise. It has patent pending on the body cast and a date stamp of 11-45. I understand Wilton was awarded the patent for the bullet vises in '41.
Which begs the question...was it manufactured in '45 or '40?


I think that 1945 would be the actual date, according to my research. My understanding is that later on there were some models that added 5 for the warranty, but not in the 40s.

 

[exmaxima1]

I think that would be the actual date...1945. My understanding is that later on there were some models that added 5 for the warranty, but not in the 40s.

AFAIK, the patent for the Wilton was awarded in March, 1942, so it seems unlikely that a Chicago vise would still have a "Pat Pend" casting in the mid-40's. I think the gray area for adding 5 years for the warranty was around 1946-1947.

Further, if the vise has no "Pat Pend" on it yet a stamp date of 1946, it does not seem plausible that it could be a 1941 vise. Or even more confusing are those with 1945 dates----subtracting 5 years would place its birthday before Wilton was founded (1941).

 

[beltdrive]

Qoute AFAIK, the patent for the Wilton was awarded in March, 1942, so it seems unlikely that a Chicago vise would still have a "Pat Pend" casting in the mid-40's. I think the gray area for adding 5 years for the warranty was around 1946-1947.

My 2.5 has Chicago on the side yet a date stamp from the 70s. It is very confusing. Some bodies were sold years later it seems.

 

[beltdrive]

exmaxima1: I am confused. If the company started in 1941, how could the pat pending vise code dated 1945 (allowing a 5 yr warranty) be a 1940 if the company did not yet exist? I had suggested that 1945 is the actual date...and that it is plausible that bodies were mixed up and sold in different years in the 40s.

 

[Outlawmws]

Except that the earliest date we have listed here is 4-1945, (KMScott's) several that are "Patent Pending" The latest of those is 12-46, and by 1/46, no Patent Pending...

All yours you said were mid to late 40's

Wilton started in 40 or 41 (I think the incorporation date was in 41, but that does not mean they weren't started before that...) and the patent was granted in 41.

With the limited empirical proof so far, they started by stamping the warranty expiration...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark in Indiana View Post
Here is my Wilton 840 vise. It has patent pending on the body cast and a date stamp of 11-45. I understand Wilton was awarded the patent for the bullet vises in '41.
Which begs the question...was it manufactured in '45 or '40?


I think that 1945 would be the actual date, according to my research. My understanding is that later on there were some models that added 5 for the warranty, but not in the 40s.

 

[Outlawmws]

Qoute AFAIK, the patent for the Wilton was awarded in March, 1942, so it seems unlikely that a Chicago vise would still have a "Pat Pend" casting in the mid-40's. I think the gray area for adding 5 years for the warranty was around 1946-1947.

My 2.5 has Chicago on the side yet a date stamp from the 70s. It is very confusing. Some bodies were sold years later it seems.

Many casting were finished in Schiller Park especially the smaller, presumably slower selling castings. Foundries cast in lots. lets say 1000, until those are close to being used up, no need to re-cast.

 

[Outlawmws]

exmaxima1: I am confused. If the company started in 1941, how could the pat pending vise code dated 1945 (allowing a 5 yr warranty) be a 1940 if the company did not yet exist? I had suggested that 1945 is the actual date...and that it is plausible that bodies were mixed up and sold in different years in the 40s.

Started and incorporated are two different things... I started a business near 10 years ago; never incorporated. it's was still a business... (So says the IRS...)

 

[Outlawmws]

AFAIK, the patent for the Wilton was awarded in March, 1942, so it seems unlikely that a Chicago vise would still have a "Pat Pend" casting in the mid-40's. I think the gray area for adding 5 years for the warranty was around 1946-1947.

Further, if the vise has no "Pat Pend" on it yet a stamp date of 1946, it does not seem plausible that it could be a 1941 vise. Or even more confusing are those with 1945 dates----subtracting 5 years would place its birthday before Wilton was founded (1941).

Not sure you wrote exactly what you meant, but Patents are not granted quickly, and it can take several years sometimes to clear. Once it's applied for it's "Patent Pending"

 

[beltdrive]

Among some of my wiltons that have Chicago but do not have pat pending...I have several 1945 dates and one 1946 date. My other number 3 that has pat pending does not have a date stamp.

 

[exmaxima1]

Except that the earliest date we have listed here is 4-1945, (KMScott's) several that are "Patent Pending" The latest of those is 12-46, and by 1/46, no Patent Pending...

All yours you said were mid to late 40's

Wilton started in 40 or 41 (I think the incorporation date was in 41, but that does not mean they weren't started before that...) and the patent was granted in 41.

With the limited empirical proof so far, they started by stamping the warranty expiration...

I used the history posted here:

http://junkyardtools.com/tool_history/wilton

It lists 1941 as founding year (same as Wilton's own website: http://www.wiltontools.com/us/en/company/history/), 8/1/41 for patent application, and 3/3/42 for patent approval. I think the warranty stamping dates are all over the map during the early years. Autoprts is a guru on Wiltons, and even he can't make heads or tails of it. Hopefully this thread, over time, will ultimately glean some definitive information.

 

[drivesitfar]

Here's my Wilton bullet stamped 10/46 and sorry i can't remember if it says Chicago or Pat. Pend. on the side and maybe some of you will know by the design. or i'll pull it out and take a closer look when i get rid of this cold/flu.

BD: great point about the baby bullets because i'm guessing Wilton made hundreds if not thousands of those Chicago bodies before they moved to Shilling Park. my Baby has 2 date stamps on it which might be rare and i think i posted them earlier with Aug 1946 and July 1948 dates if i remember correctly.

i did hear that some Baby bullets were Chicago in their cast way into the 70's so yours fits in that category.

good talk guys and we'll figure this out. i'm sure starting a company at the beginning of WWII with a lot of the working guys leaving for the wars didn't help Wilton get everything perfect.

 

[drivesitfar]

Ex: the owner of Junkyardtools website is a member here and i think it's Steve and sorry i can't remember his exact handle. it does include Steve though so might be SteveO or the other Steve name.

Steve told me when i PM'd him months ago that when he wrote that he just copied it off another guy's post probably from Vintage Machinery or some other forum. he said he wasn't sure it was 100% correct hence me, you and all the guys on GJ trying to figure out the answers.

ALL: keep posting up your date stamps on your bullet vises pre-1970 so we can figure this out eventually with enough information. also if you have a date stamped after 1970 that says EXP or Guar next to it please post, but i think the 5 year pre dates stopped in the early 60's.

 

[exmaxima1]

Among some of my wiltons that have Chicago but do not have pat pending...I have several 1945 dates and one 1946 date. My other number 3 that has pat pending does not have a date stamp.

Based on that very limited info, I would say the 1945 and 1946 stamps are true dates, and the No. 3 w/o Pat Pend is sometime in 1941 -1942. But that's not definitive, and only based on published chronology.

I think you would need to consider the jaw style & screws, and possibly the type of swivel clamps (bronze vs steel, slide handles vs plain acorn head) to more accurately fit them in the timeline. And more PICS.

 

[Outlawmws]

Among some of my wiltons that have Chicago but do not have pat pending...I have several 1945 dates and one 1946 date. My other number 3 that has pat pending does not have a date stamp.

Can you list exact dates and markings? general information does not help the data set.

 

[exmaxima1]

Ex: the owner of Junkyardtools website is a member here and i think it's Steve and sorry i can't remember his exact handle. it does include Steve though so might be SteveO or the other Steve name.

Steve told me when i PM'd him months ago that when he wrote that he just copied it off another guy's post probably from Vintage Machinery or some other forum. he said he wasn't sure it was 100% correct hence me, you and all the guys on GJ trying to figure out the answers.

I can now see that many of the inconsistencies are flawed from basing on Steve's site. And I have fallen into that trap in a few of my responses.

Yet the founding date seems to be the main issue: is it 1940 or 1941? Wilton's site claims it is 1941, and most companies would go older if they were fibbing, so I tend to think that is a valid date. The site also talks about building vises throughout WWII, and that much of the surplus flooded the market after the war ended. They would not put warranty dates on military parts, and likely not any stampings (per Autoprts), so it is possible that all the surplus was stamped after the war. There could easily be a blend of old and newer style vises all being stamped with similar dates during that period.

Possible??

 

[drivesitfar]

Ex and All: i'm wondering if Wilton didn't date any vises prior to 1945 because all vises were sold to the government. also with their work force at a minimum a new company might not have a warranty program in place?

I've yet to see a vise stamped prior to 1945 so until i do maybe that is the actual year they started dated their vises. then as the company grew a bit and more competition in the public market they offered the 5 year Guar/EXP stamps until vises sat on shelves a bit too long and they went back to actual date stamps in the 60's.

if more members and new members like Beltdrive post what they know maybe we'll figure this out some day.

anybody have a stamp on their Wilton from 1940-1945 that they didn't put there themselves?

 

[Outlawmws]

I used the history posted here:

http://junkyardtools.com/tool_history/wilton

It lists 1941 as founding year (same as Wilton's own website: http://www.wiltontools.com/us/en/company/history/), 8/1/41 for patent application, and 3/3/42 for patent approval. I think the warranty stamping dates are all over the map during the early years. Autoprts is a guru on Wiltons, and even he can't make heads or tails of it. Hopefully this thread, over time, will ultimately glean some definitive information.

If Wilton's site lists '41 as founding , that's probably the source. However, that may have been dictated from company records for when that started at the Wilton Avenue and Wrightwood Avenue location in Chicago. It's a rare company that starts in a large factory setting, and could have been after he applied for the patent, and well after he started early production runs.

It could also be the incorporation date, and the details of what happened when lost in the poor documentation of the times. Few companies keep early records. Especially if things are moved from one building to another. (I've seen what gets dumped in moves, many times). what is clear is the dates do not correlate.


That history states

From 1941 through 1945, the new Wilton 40S machinist vise was manufactured in Chicago and sold solely to the US Government. Most vises were used in munitions factories or in manufacturing of equipment used during WWII.

(The government often bought and provided tooling to private companies to use on contract work.)

All during the late 30's, and 40 and 41, before the US got into the war, the manufacturing base was gearing up for war had already started, if only to supply Britain. (But the US Army and Navy were also gearing up. Look how many battleships and carriers we had in Pearl Harbor alone...)

If Wilton was a government supplier, they may have actually started before the "official" date.

 

[drivesitfar]

Outlaw: nice post.


ALL: makes a lot of sense because didn't WWII actually start in 1938 in the German portion of it in Europe?

with some big vise companies going out of business in the early 40's like Prentiss. probably a few others will come to mind maybe Wilton's new owner was able to start up a huge factory with the government's financial help and some less expensive used quality tooling available?

 

[Mark in Indiana]

All: I'm really enjoying the discussion about Wilton dates, as to when the company started, patent pending, etc. I wish that there was a company historian or a decendent of Hugh W. Vogl to clear this up.

Very Interesting!

 

[Outlawmws]

I can now see that many of the inconsistencies are flawed from basing on Steve's site. And I have fallen into that trap in a few of my responses.

Yet the founding date seems to be the main issue: is it 1940 or 1941? Wilton's site claims it is 1941, and most companies would go older if they were fibbing, so I tend to think that is a valid date. The site also talks about building vises throughout WWII, and that much of the surplus flooded the market after the war ended. They would not put warranty dates on military parts, and likely not any stamping (per Autoprts), so it is possible that all the surplus was stamped after the war. There could easily be a blend of old and newer style vises all being stamped with similar dates during that period.

Possible??

Anything is possible. The hard part is sorting out the jumble of data.

I think your comment of the surplus being stamped post war has merit... (more on this below...)

The thing we need more of is markings of Chicago era vises without dates.

There are only 36 hard entries for dates so far, so not enough to make any solid claims. One that was posted had no date and that was a No. 3, which IS a war years vise model...

I've yet to see a vise stamped prior to 1945 so until i do maybe that is the actual year they started dated their vises. then as the company grew a bit and more competition in the public market they offered the 5 year Guar/EXP stamps until vises sat on shelves a bit too long and they went back to actual date stamps in the 60's.


anybody have a stamp on their Wilton from 1940-1945 that they didn't put there themselves?

State this up front: There is not enough data to support ANY theory as yet. Those 36 hard entries have (so far) TWO gaps. Now a gap can definitely occur for rolling forward (starting a 5 year warranty Exp date).

Drives statement could be the deal, but not the only possibility...

One gap runs from 4/47 to 3/53 (nearly 6 years)
There is another gap from 6/55 to 12/60, which is 5/1/2 years.

GAUR EXP ran from that 6/55 date, to 6/62, but a least one was a cadet, (6/55) and that was also around the time of the Schiller Park move.

A roll BACK would involve an overlap of Mfg. dates with Exp dates, so it's possible they started parking them with GAUR EXP, for 5 years min., or it could have been coincidence, and they were just making it clear (for 7 years min...) (and they could have switched immediately with "MFG" instead..)

Again NOTHING definitive.

One more point: While there may not be a requirement for a warranty to the government, these vises went to industry via the government, so to help beat out the well established competition and support their claim of superiority, they may have done it anyway...

 

[beltdrive]

Ok, so here's a good question: If the above number 3 Chicago pat pend is stamped 45 and we think it is a 1940, what year is my Chicago number 3 - also stamped 45 - which does NOT have the pat pend mark?

 

[exmaxima1]

Ok, so here's a good question: If the above number 3 Chicago pat pend is stamped 45 and we think it is a 1940, what year is my Chicago number 3 - also stamped 45 - which does NOT have the pat pend mark?

I'm going with Driv on this, and that it may have been built before 1945, or was war surplus, or was built from a combination of spare parts, but there is no way to know when since they did not stamp dates on anything before 1945. Until we see a date stamp before 1945, that seems to be the most logical theory.

 

[drivesitfar]

Beltdrive: it's always good to post another picture or two of the vises you are talking about if you can so we don't have to keep scrolling back and forth to see which vise you are talking about. also so a guy just seeing your last post doesn't have to read the entire thread to search for pictures you already posted. we all like pictures here at GJ and especially of vises. did you show the dates on the slides or just remember them from when you restored them?

thanks for posting and i'll let others address your question if they might have an answer i haven't already stated.

Outlaw: another great post. thanks for doing the math.

ALL: i just remembered i sold a pretty old Wilton C0 to BmxDad last month that didn't have any date on it so here's a few pictures of it for our research. or maybe the date wore off?

 

[Outlawmws]

Ok, so here's a good question: If the above number 3 Chicago pat pend is stamped 45 and we think it is a 1940, what year is my Chicago number 3 - also stamped 45 - which does NOT have the pat pend mark?

What MONTH is your date?

early 1940 was probably no pat. applied for, later could have been after the pat. was applied for, hence "pat pending"

Again, we need specifics for your vise.

(and a correction: the undated vise in the data was a #4, typo on my part)

I also have a 47, without a pat. Pending and is also not marked No. 3. But not everyone posted that info (or pics showing it) so 'tis unknown if Wilton was simply inconsistent.

Hmmmm Both 3"ers are not marked (and there is a 3rd '45 3" unmarked), maybe they simply decided not enough space without getting it crowded?

 

[exmaxima1]

What MONTH is your date?

early 1940 was probably no pat. applied for, later could have been after the pat. was applied for, hence "pat pending"

So you are saying that the earliest vises could be the "no pat pend" Chicago era, and then they went to Pat Pend, and renamed the vise to a Number scheme (such as No. 3, No. 4, etc), and then they went back to "no Pat Pend" Chicago, and regular model numbers (ie, 830, 840) again?

I'll have to think about that...

 

[beltdrive]

It is making less and less sensse to me. Here are pics of both my number 3 vises…they do not have pat pend but they both show 45 year codes.
In contrast, my number 3 that has the pat pend does not have any stamp.

I still think it is possible that the pat pend vise that has the 45 stamp is a 1945 vise. There is really not enough evidence to say one way or the other. But one would think that a vise with no stamp (my pat pend) would be earlier.

I am not sure it makes sense to say that they cast vises with no pat pend, then added the pat pend mark, then removed it again. It is more likely the pat pend is the earliest and in early/mid 40s changed to having no pat pend. It is also possible that both castings were being sold at the same time.

 

[beltdrive]

191421899117 this is an ebay item number that shows a 3 inch jaw bullet that is a model 930 and not a number 3. It has CHICAGO on it. I don't know what the dif is between a 9300 and a number 3.

 

[drivesitfar]

BD: i don't have all small Wilton vise #'s memorized so i'll defer to those that might have your answer.

you are confused?? now you know why I (we) started this thread. short of finding a 90-100 year old that worked in Wilton's Chicago plant or a relative of one of the owner's or worker's we are stuck talking about what may or may not have happened.

i can say i think those two slide stamps you just posted are the oldest ones, but i haven't went through the entire thread in a while and I've got a cold/flu today so i might be wrong.

 

[beltdrive]

Here's a wilton baby 2 inch that I recently sold on ebay...1946 code. Does not have pat pend lettering

 

[beltdrive]

Here's another number 3 pat pend that I sold on ebay last year...it had no stamp on the slide. (I keep records)

 

[Outlawmws]

So you are saying that the earliest vises could be the "no pat pend" Chicago era, and then they went to Pat Pend, and renamed the vise to a Number scheme (such as No. 3, No. 4, etc), and then they went back to "no Pat Pend" Chicago, and regular model numbers (ie, 830, 840) again?

I'll have to think about that...

Both you and Beltdrive misunderstood me,

Yes on this order: No pat marking, Pat pending, Pat.ed...(may or may not include the No.)

On the SMALLER vises (3" and under? ) they MAY have left it off due to space constraints.

 

[thundermug]

Mine doesn't have a date stamp.

4.5" jaws 1940s-50s era, I think.

https://scontent-b-ord.**.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/v/t1.0-9/10355860_741241180392_3174370998971821690_n.jpg?oh=021c8eec5338ede4b6f15cf04a50577a&oe=552314B2

Part of the original decal by the end cap which read: FIVE YEAR GUARANTEE

 

[bluebolt]

I think we need a whole lot more dates and pictures of ALL markings. After a time we may figure out a pattern but there will always be some that don't fit the pattern!