Red Heads versus Epoxy Anchors, pros/cons?

[TheEquineFencer]

I need to mount the two uprights for the overhead hoist. I need to install (6) 3/4 anchors in each. I stopped at Fastenal yesterday and looked the Red Heads and then looked at Epoxy anchors. In the past when I've used or seen the Red heads used, a lot of time they do not grab right at the bottom as they are supposed to and you end up with an anchor not as deep as it should be. I've never used the Epoxy anchoring system before. I'd like some input on the Epoxy anchoring system, just how well do they work, how do you know how much filler to put in and how to do the install, what brand/type epoxy did you use, how deep do they need to be? I'm a few days away from putting the uprights up so I have a little time to decide.

 

[TheEquineFencer]

I was hoping I'd get some input on this.

 

[Wood'nMetal]

I just did it with the install of my lift. I used the Sikaflex brand that mixed it right in the nozzle of the caulk gun. I had ten 3/4" anchors. I shot probably good 1/8" cup in each hole and drove them in.

I had another anchor from a previous task that was spinning in the hole. I pulled it out, shot in some epoxy and put it back in the hole. Next day I torqued it down without a problem. The stuff is as hard as, well, concrete when it dries!

 

[jhama78]

I use both styles at work. Typically I use the hilti epoxy anchors on the bigger jobs like anchoring sounding rocket launcher studs. I will try and dig up some pictures later tonight or tomorrow at work of them. Our structures guy at work is happier with the epoxy strength than most anything else. We fill the holes approximately 1/2 to 2/3 full depending on how big of a hole we core drilled versus the size of the studs. Obviously the goal is to have the epoxy rise to the top of the hole and not spill over.

 

[TheEquineFencer]

I just did it with the install of my lift. I used the Sikaflex brand that mixed it right in the nozzle of the caulk gun. I had ten 3/4" anchors. I shot probably good 1/8" cup in each hole and drove them in.

I had another anchor from a previous task that was spinning in the hole. I pulled it out, shot in some epoxy and put it back in the hole. Next day I torqued it down without a problem. The stuff is as hard as, well, concrete when it dries!

I'll look up that brand to see if it's available around here. Thanks for the input.

 

[jhama78]

Here are a couple of pics I quickly dug up here at work. First pic is a small launcher that we set up a couple of years back. Its secured with 6 - 18" long 1 1/2" diameter studs that are epoxied in the concrete about 12" We core drill the holes to be about 1/4" bigger than the stud prior to setting them.

Here is the launcher riser after drilling and prior to gluing the studs


Heres a pic of the launcher installed


The launcher is tested by hanging a 4000lb weight out about 300" forward of the boom pivot point.


This is a set of launcher support stands that we set up last year... each secured by 5 - 3/4"-10 studs epoxied into the concrete ~ 7-8". This is closer to the application that your 2 post lift will be. These stands were static load tested to ~ 50,000lbs.


In both of these applications we level the launcher/stands and then pour non-shrinking grout under them to ensure they have a solid foundation.

Hopefully this helps with your decision making process.

 

[rockwithjason]

In the past when I've used or seen the Red heads used, a lot of time they do not grab right at the bottom as they are supposed to and you end up with an anchor not as deep as it should be.

what do you mean by this? are you saying that the anchor is pulling out of the drilled hole? if that is the case then there is a problem with the concrete, the hole is the wrong size or some other problem is happening. if you are referring to the small amount the anchor rises when you tighen it, that is by design. if you look at the wedge the anchr is meant to pull up into the wedge a certain amount. i have never personally had a redhead fail. i have had the wegit brand fail because the wedge design is garbage.

 

[Lassen Forge]

When I first started doing bridge maintenance on the SFOBB (back in the early 1990's) our standard was Redheads. When we ran into some issues with old concrete and as such loose redheads, they OK'd our trying the epoxy anchors. They worked so well they never went back to Redheads - some of these for walkways anchored 30-50 feet above a surface that have yet to budge.

Just make sure the anchors are rated for the load, and you're GTG - youll break out the concrete before the fastener comes loose.

The wedge ones - aren't worth the powder to blow them up. They WILL fail, guaranteed.

 

[wnstwolf]

I was stuck in Boston traffic for 12 hours back in July 2006 An overhead panel fell in the new Big Dig Tunnel Wont forget it cause I missed a flight and a total chain reaction of life events followed. The panel fell due to a failed epoxy hanger. Sure it could have been for a million reasons why it pulled out but I stick with the redheads just for spite..

Could have been a lot worse as the guy at the wrong place at the wrong time when it failed was killed and his passenger serious wounded...

Just saying....

 

[theoldwizard1]

I need to mount the two uprights for the overhead hoist. I need to install (6) 3/4 anchors in each.

I'm confused. A picture, or a link to the product, would help.

What are you mountinf the upright to ? Concrete, cinder block, wood ? Are the bolts going to be horizontal or vertical (upward) ?

As mention the, Boston Big Dig Tunnel failure was due to the wrong epoxy. Cost millions to repair.

 

[nolimits76]

My wife is a red head so....

Seriously though, done a lot of heavy civil and heavy commercial construction work and Hilti is the preferred brand. Not to say Red Heads won't work, but why f*ck around with it when you need guaranteed performance. The small difference in price isn't worth the peace of mind IMO.

FYI, if you make contact with a local Hilti sales guy (who will then talk w/ their engineering dept) and tell them your pull out strength requirements, concrete thickness, etc -- you know the details -- they can set you in the right direction on the type you actually need so you don't piss away money.

 

[dogdas]

for a hoist that has almost zero lateral movement (or is supposed to) you could get away with your typical expansion anchor but if it were my garage I would drop the coin on a Hilti HVU capsule anchor system with bolt BUT you need to drill the proper size hole and be sure that you blow out the residue.

 

[PeterT]

Not sure if it helps at all, but these guys are awesome. Make a great product, decent price, and made in this country.
http://www.confast.com/

 

[jhama78]

My wife is a red head so....

Seriously though, done a lot of heavy civil and heavy commercial construction work and Hilti is the preferred brand. Not to say Red Heads won't work, but why f*ck around with it when you need guaranteed performance. The small difference in price isn't worth the peace of mind IMO.

FYI, if you make contact with a local Hilti sales guy (who will then talk w/ their engineering dept) and tell them your pull out strength requirements, concrete thickness, etc -- you know the details -- they can set you in the right direction on the type you actually need so you don't piss away money.

Well said... And I'm married to a red head as well

 

[TheEquineFencer]

I'm confused. A picture, or a link to the product, would help.

What are you mountinf the upright to ? Concrete, cinder block, wood ? Are the bolts going to be horizontal or vertical (upward) ?

As mention the, Boston Big Dig Tunnel failure was due to the wrong epoxy. Cost millions to repair.

I'll answer these questions as I read through them. I'm mounting two uprights, two 6x8 steel columns, that has a 1 inch steel plate welded to the bottom that will hold a steel I-beam to the floor. The anchors will be holding the plate and columns to the floor. The columns will be braced to prevent them from being pulled over in the event of a side load. They are going to be mounted to a concrete pad, part of which is new 3000 PSI that is 18 inches thick along the outside wall, the other side is 6 inch 4000PSI concrete that will be support by braces against side loading.

In the past when I've used some smaller ones; the ones I need to install are 3/4 inch, I've drilled the holes, dropped the Red Heads in after blowing out the holes and started to tighten them and they did not grab at the bottom as designed and for whatever reason pulled about 1/2 way or so up before they caught and held. The mounting of these will be drilled straight into the floor, just like bolting a plate of steel to a floor.

 

[TheEquineFencer]

My wife is a red head so....

Seriously though, done a lot of heavy civil and heavy commercial construction work and Hilti is the preferred brand. Not to say Red Heads won't work, but why f*ck around with it when you need guaranteed performance. The small difference in price isn't worth the peace of mind IMO.

FYI, if you make contact with a local Hilti sales guy (who will then talk w/ their engineering dept) and tell them your pull out strength requirements, concrete thickness, etc -- you know the details -- they can set you in the right direction on the type you actually need so you don't piss away money.

I have no idea what my "pull out strength requirements" are. Good idea, I'll see if I can find out more about Hilti and see what I can come up with. I've never used the Epoxy anchors but I like the idea. They sound like they have some surface contact area as long as they hold. I guess that's the reason for this thread, to get input and see what will work best in my application.

 

[TheEquineFencer]

for a hoist that has almost zero lateral movement (or is supposed to) you could get away with your typical expansion anchor but if it were my garage I would drop the coin on a Hilti HVU capsule anchor system with bolt BUT you need to drill the proper size hole and be sure that you blow out the residue.

I'll look into that type, thanks.

 

[TheEquineFencer]

Not sure if it helps at all, but these guys are awesome. Make a great product, decent price, and made in this country.
http://www.confast.com/

http://www.confast.com/articles/red-head-wedge-anchor-installation

The link above is the type I've used before, that for whatever reason, I didn't get really good results every time.

 

[jhama78]

Here is the info on the exact stuff that we use:

https://www.us.hilti.com/anchor-systems/injectable-adhesive-anchors/r1216

 

[TheEquineFencer]

I sent Hilti an email, hopefully someone will call me Monday. I don't suppose you have any partial tubes laying around do you? It looks like some high dollar stuff. It looks like you for the most part fill the drilled hole partially and drive the threaded rod in and let it set up.

 

[bsg]

I was stuck in Boston traffic for 12 hours back in July 2006 An overhead panel fell in the new Big Dig Tunnel Wont forget it cause I missed a flight and a total chain reaction of life events followed. The panel fell due to a failed epoxy hanger. Sure it could have been for a million reasons why it pulled out but I stick with the redheads just for spite..

Could have been a lot worse as the guy at the wrong place at the wrong time when it failed was killed and his passenger serious wounded...

Just saying....

If I remember correctly the investigation into that failure, the epoxy anchors were not installed properly........

Kevin

 

[whitedogone]

I've used the epoxy capsule type anchors a lot(Hammer Capsule). Never had a failure. Key is make sure the hole is preped correctly. Simpson has anything you need. Just choose a system that works and is at the price point you want. You can also order direct from them.

http://www.strongtie.com/products/anchorsystems/order/download.html?source=anchosystemshp

 

[jhama78]

I sent Hilti an email, hopefully someone will call me Monday. I don't suppose you have any partial tubes laying around do you? It looks like some high dollar stuff. It looks like you for the most part fill the drilled hole partially and drive the threaded rod in and let it set up.

Yeah its not cheap at all... about 50 bux a tube. Unfortunately once you open it you more or less have to use it since the two parts mix in the nozzle and will harden after a while. Normally if we have an open tube and have finished the job we will fill in holes and cracks in the concrete with the excess. I'm still looking for a few more pics of the bigger launcher studs that we have set with this stuff...

edit: Another benefit of using the Hilti epoxy is that it will set under water just in case the need arises...

 

[whitedogone]

Simpson SET1.7KTA Epoxy-Tie Anchoring Adhesive is cheap and no special gun required.
comes in 1.7 oz. tubes so little waste.


http://www.strongtie.com/products/anchorsystems/adhesives/set/index.html

 

[TheEquineFencer]

Simpson SET1.7KTA Epoxy-Tie Anchoring Adhesive is cheap and no special gun required.
comes in 1.7 oz. tubes so little waste.


http://www.strongtie.com/products/anchorsystems/adhesives/set/index.html

Thanks, I'll check it out too.

 

[theoldwizard1]

I sent Hilti an email, hopefully someone will call me Monday. I don't suppose you have any partial tubes laying around do you? It looks like some high dollar stuff.

Most of that stuff is $$$ for small projects. I have to set ONE anchor this spring.

Where can I get small quantities of anchoring epoxy ?

 

[hoho98925]

Simpson SET1.7KTA Epoxy-Tie Anchoring Adhesive is cheap and no special gun required.
comes in 1.7 oz. tubes so little waste.


http://www.strongtie.com/products/anchorsystems/adhesives/set/index.html

Simpson epoxy is probably your best bet. A Simpson Set XP will be available at most lumber yards and will be just what you need. I have used lots of Hilti brand but you don't need to pay the premium for this. I have never seen either epoxy fail. The key to epoxy is making sure your hole is the right size and CLEAN. Buy the right size hole brush ( a couple bucks) blow the hole out with compressed air, brush the hole several times, blow out and repeat. The epoxy is stronger then the concrete it's in.

 

[whitedogone]

Most of that stuff is $$$ for small projects. I have to set ONE anchor this spring.

Where can I get small quantities of anchoring epoxy ?

Repeat:



Simpson SET1.7KTA Epoxy-Tie Anchoring Adhesive is cheap and no special gun required.
comes in 1.7 oz. tubes so little waste.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[Zeke]

In either case, RH or epoxy it is imperative that the drilled hole is blown out clean as a whistle with air AND a bottle brush. Don't stand over the hole when you hit it with air! Ask me how I know.

 

[why worry]

After you have cleaned the hole (holes should be about 1/8"+ oversize), dry fit your pieces, then fill the holes about 2/3rds full with the epoxy. Don't worry if some spills out after inserting the rod. When you go to install the nuts and washers after the recommended wait time you can use a hammer and chisel to clean up any excess epoxy. install nuts and torque to spec and your good to go.

 

[rockwithjason]

In either case, RH or epoxy it is imperative that the drilled hole is blown out clean as a whistle with air AND a bottle brush. Don't stand over the hole when you hit it with air! Ask me how I know.

HA! i found that out the hard way too!

 

[TheEquineFencer]

In either case, RH or epoxy it is imperative that the drilled hole is blown out clean as a whistle with air AND a bottle brush. Don't stand over the hole when you hit it with air! Ask me how I know.

LOL, I've got that shirt too...

 

[TheEquineFencer]

Simpson epoxy is probably your best bet. A Simpson Set XP will be available at most lumber yards and will be just what you need. I have used lots of Hilti brand but you don't need to pay the premium for this. I have never seen either epoxy fail. The key to epoxy is making sure your hole is the right size and CLEAN. Buy the right size hole brush ( a couple bucks) blow the hole out with compressed air, brush the hole several times, blow out and repeat. The epoxy is stronger then the concrete it's in.

I just got off the phone with Hilti, lots of good technical info...then I found out I needed the $150 gun to put the stuff in...big turn off...I'll look at these others.

If I'm lucky I'll be at a point in the next few days I can get these things mounted and start back moving forward on this part of the rebuild...

 

[TheEquineFencer]

I just got off the phone with Itwredhead.com support team. They were the most helpful so far. They enlightened me to a A501 Kit using A7-5 cartridges, that lets you do the same thing as the high dollar dispenser, but on a smaller scale. I also found out the Epoxy anchors will hold more that the wedge anchors in my application. I only have 6 inches on concrete in one location and 24 inches in the other. With the wedge anchors I should not go but 4 to 4-1/2 inches deep, with the epoxy anchors I can go full depth.

Now to see who has the stuff and what it cost. He told me Lowes and HD usually carries it. I talked to the local Fastenal dealer earlier, they only see the anchors and most things by the box.

 

[Beemer533]

I use red heads frequently with no issues... Any issues I've seen with them are generally attributable to either bad concrete or user error (oversize or out of round hole).

I have used these in the past for large 3/4" anchors:

http://www.mcmaster.com/#standard-anchors/=vjt0rd

 

[TheEquineFencer]

I use red heads frequently with no issues... Any issues I've seen with them are generally attributable to either bad concrete or user error (oversize or out of round hole).

I have used these in the past for large 3/4" anchors:

http://www.mcmaster.com/#standard-anchors/=vjt0rd

Cost wise, standard anchors it what I would use, but with only 6 inches of concrete to anchor to, I'm probably going to go with the epoxy anchors. From what the Tech Support at Red Head told me, they'll be ready to use in an hour and I'll only have about 6-8 minutes to get the rods in place before they start to cure.

Right now finding the stuff is a problem. The folks at fastenal are about clueless and my local Lowes does have them. I'll stop at Lowes when I'm out that way and see if I can get them to order them for me.

 

[TheEquineFencer]

After dealing with the folks at Fastenal, They were somewhat clueless, I found the Kit and cartridges in Wilson, NC at Automotive Fasteners on Hwy 301N. They said they had boxes of them...I called back to check the price, they just have the kits. Roughly $25 per kit or 5oz cartridge, there's only about $2-$3 difference with a kit or cartridge.

Now for the kicker...Price per what looks like the kit from Lowes.com... $7.20 each!

Guess who's going to call Red Head back to calculate how much I will need then order from Lowes.com?

 

[TheEquineFencer]

I tried ordering 5 from Lowes, system says only 2 available, so I ordered them and 4 from Amazon.com, I might get them in about a week if I'm lucky. I also order some extra nozzles, they were about 1/2 the local price but with shipping it might come out more, but at least it all may get here about the same time.

 

[toplessHO]

make sure you check the date on them before you use.
I have a 5 gallon bucket about half full of 1/2-3/4 anchors I would love to get rid of

 

[Capt Chrysler]

I just had problems with a hoist install. Read as I wobbled the holes
I bought some Red Head 10 inch long anchors. Cut the wedge head off leaving the threaded rod. Then used A7 epoxy.

Capt. Chrysler