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Conundrum - What to install (LED/T5HO/T8)

Spudland_Dave

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I know this is a hotly debated "Favorite" topic here at GJ...but if someone had to pick TODAY at this Very moment what kind of fixtures/lighting to install...what would you choose and why?

-T8
-T5HO
-LED Strips

I'm personally confused...thought I had my mind made up...when I wired the shop I sized & wired for 8' T8 strips...a couple months ago I kinda changed my mind to T5HO's cause costs have changed in the 2 years since I've wired & finished the interior of the shop. And in the last week or so I'm kinda thinking LED's???

I know there is no one perfect solution...but when you factor it all in, price, availability, light output...and real world garage use...

My quick thoughts..
I'm no pro with all the technical jargon in terms of lighting...but I do care about color rendering (theme I see often when talking LED)...as for color of builbs, I hate cool colors, my bulb color of choice is the Daylight 6500k bulbs in my basement hobby workshop...pretty sure I'd do the same in the garage.

Bang for the buck With the T5HO and T8 fixtures being relatively close in price...is T8 Still a super deal?

No doubt LED is the way of the future...but how much longer does a person need to wait to get affordable?
 
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DC73

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I'm also going through this decision at the moment. I am currently leaning toward T8s as being the best bang for the buck. I don't think LEDs are quite there yet. I do think there will be much better (and lower cost) LED choices in the coming year or so but I can't wait that long. I'm thinking that LED to T8 retrofits will become more and more popular and I'll have plenty of good choices by the time my original T8 lamps need to be replaced.

DC
 
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cybrdyke

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I know this is a hotly debated "Favorite" topic here at GJ...but if someone had to pick TODAY at this Very moment what kind of fixtures/lighting to install...what would you choose and why?

-T8
-T5HO
-LED Strips

I'm personally confused...thought I had my mind made up...when I wired the shop I sized & wired for 8' T8 strips...a couple months ago I kinda changed my mind to T5HO's cause costs have changed in the 2 years since I've wired & finished the interior of the shop. And in the last week or so I'm kinda thinking LED's???

I know there is no one perfect solution...but when you factor it all in, price, availability, light output...and real world garage use...

My quick thoughts..
I'm no pro with all the technical jargon in terms of lighting...but I do care about color rendering (theme I see often when talking LED)...as for color of builbs, I hate cool colors, my bulb color of choice is the Daylight 6500k bulbs in my basement hobby workshop...pretty sure I'd do the same in the garage.

Bang for the buck With the T5HO and T8 fixtures being relatively close in price...is T8 Still a super deal?

No doubt LED is the way of the future...but how much longer does a person need to wait to get affordable?

I'm also going through this decision at the moment. I am currently leaning toward T8s as being the best bang for the buck. I don't think LEDs are quite there yet. I do think there will be much better (and lower cost) LED choices in the coming year or so but I can't wait that long. I'm thinking that LED to T8 retrofits will become more and more popular and I'll have plenty of good choices by the time my original T8 lamps need to be replaced.

DC
ceiling height will be a determining factor for you guys. Over 15' go T5HO. Under, go T8.
Consider LED if you burn the lights for many hours per day....then you can start to justify the initial cost by counting up the energy savings.
 
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Spudland_Dave

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I'm also going through this decision at the moment. I am currently leaning toward T8s as being the best bang for the buck. I don't think LEDs are quite there yet. I do think there will be much better (and lower cost) LED choices in the coming year or so but I can't wait that long. I'm thinking that LED to T8 retrofits will become more and more popular and I'll have plenty of good choices by the time my original T8 lamps need to be replaced.

DC

May I ask why you feel T8's are better bang for the buck? To be fair, up until recently I felt the same...but looking real rough at it...purely using Home Depot online pricing... 28.67 for a 2 bulb/4' T8 fixture and 39.97 for the T5HO equivalent.. 10.00 per fixture is a decent amount of money BUT if I use 1/2 the fixtures.... Back when I was building the shop and hot & heavy thinking about this stuff, I seem to recall the difference between the 2 being much more....I'm not taking into consideration the price of bulbs and replacements here...
 
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Spudland_Dave

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ceiling height will be a determining factor for you guys. Over 15' go T5HO. Under, go T8.
Consider LED if you burn the lights for many hours per day....then you can start to justify the initial cost by counting up the energy savings.

10' Ceilings in my shop....
Only use the shop nights & weekends when I'm not "Actually working my day job"...
 

DC73

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May I ask why you feel T8's are better bang for the buck?

It came down to T8s and LEDs for me. My ceilings will be 10' and my electrician buddy had already alerted me to what cybrdyke just confirmed (thanks) that T8s would be better for my ceiling height. Our electric costs are reasonable making the payback for LEDs a bit of a stretch the last time I crunched numbers.

I just need to find a good bang for the buck fixture, calculate how many I need, and determine which alignment orientation would be best.

DC
 

Electric_Light

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10' Ceilings in my shop....
Only use the shop nights & weekends when I'm not "Actually working my day job"...

Unless you're in Hawaii or Florida, your best bet is T8 with a clear plastic cover. T8s start fine to 0F, but they'll never reach the full output under 50F or so without a cover to let them warm up. This makes a night and day difference. If you're gonna go with a shop or strip light and get the plastic sleeves for each bulb so they can warm up in the cold. Don't get that cheap one from the Home Depot that puts two lamps so close together that they're practically kissing each. The light from the part of bulbs facing each other can't come out.

You can get your hands on used T8 fixtures probably even complete with used lamps quite cheaply thanks to all the grant funded unnecessary commercial LED retrofit projects. T8 lamps are rated for 50% failure at 20,000 to 36,000 hours of use. The used lamps will have many thousands of hours left unless they came with fixtures that were torn down just in time to replace the lamps all at once. Large commercial facilities change them all out at once after about 70% of life so they don't have to deal with replacing them one by one. For you, the cost of having to rent a Genie to change out lamps are no issue, so you can run the till they burn out.

If you choose to get used fixtures, go for fixtures with the fixtures with best fixture paint conditions and the plastic covers. The ballast voltage is next on the list. Covers are expensive and repainting is way too much effort. From the usage you described. Anything else probably don't matter since you're not going to burn many hours.

The warmest T8 is 3000K which is about the same whiteness as a filament headlights. 2700K is CFL/low wattage standard light bulbs. 6500K is bluish white. There are 3000, 3500, 4100, 5000 and 6500. Over 90% of bulbs from commercial facilities are 35 or 41.

T5HOs put out twice the lumen per lamp compared to T8. The lamps are about 3 1/2 times brighter when you look at them. They're usually used in very high ceilings (25 feet and up) in places of 400W and 175W HIDs where the bulbs are not visible without intentionally looking at them. If you don't like glare, don't even think about using them unless they're in indirect fixtures or something with a good diffuser that shields the bulbs from line of sight.

For a ceiling that's only 10ft high, well spaced out 2, 3 or 4 lamp T8 fixtures with a clear textured cover is your best bet. Many ballasts allow running one less bulb, so you can tune the fixture this way. Milky white covers do a good job of covering up glare, but you lose about half the light. Be warned that the more properly you do this T8 install, the less satisfaction you will have if you change them to LEDs later.
 
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Spudland_Dave

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Unless you're in Hawaii or Florida, your best bet is T8 with a clear plastic cover. T8s start fine to 0F, but they'll never reach the full output under 50F or so without a cover to let them warm up. This makes a night and day difference. If you're gonna go with a shop or strip light and get the plastic sleeves for each bulb so they can warm up in the cold. Don't get that cheap one from the Home Depot that puts two lamps so close together that they're practically kissing each. The light from the part of bulbs facing each other can't come out.

Excellent post Electric_Light
New twist now....covers...I've always hated them (Dust/Dirt/Grime Collectors) thus-reducing the output. IMHO would it not be a wash...the 6 months of winter here in Maine where they would need to warm up (I do plan on heating it to about the 50 degree point here in the future) and in the summer no issues with warming :headscrat combined with my complete distaste to stand on my scaffolding every year to clean the covers..lets be honest, it wont happen...As it stands now in my basement workshop, when I replace bunt bulbs theres so much burnt on dust I need brake-cleaner to cut the grime off em :)

T8 Fixtures...the supply seems endless...would you reccomend any particular one? I'll be looking for a mix... some 8'-4 Bulb, 4'-2 Bulb and 4'-4 Bulb preferably all the same MFG...good quality, reasonable price.
 

jbmatth

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I'm not an expert by any means, but from what I've found is that T8 is the way to go thus that is where I'm going in my shop lighting project. I also thought about the other options and 8' vs 4' and 2 vs 4 bulb fixtures and finely decided that it would be better to have all the same so I can get a large quantity of bulbs and fixtures then if I need to do any replacing of bulbs or parts I already have them on hand. Also you can get great deals on used T-12 fixtures from places like craigslist, check out my build in my sig to find out more on that subject. :) Just my two cents.
 

NUTTSGT

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Dave, I had 48" T12 shop lights in my garage before I started my refurb. I lowered the ceiling to a flat 11' where previously it was sloped (roofline) and painted it semi-gloss white.

At the time, I didn't want T12s as I knew the end should be coming for them. T5 were way to expensive for me, it's just a garage. So I decided on T8 as they were and have become even more readily available.

Right off the bat, I ruled out 8 footers. In my opinion, they have three issues. a pain to go get them, a pain to store an eight foot bulb and they are harder to get rid of when they die. So I went with 48" lamps.

I decided to buy strip lights over shoplights. I always felt that reflectors on shop lights made the ceiling dark. Using the strip lights allows the entire ceiling to be the reflector and seems to me to work better. I bought 8' 4 bulb fixtures from Menards. They work great but do create RFI. That was solved by moving the radio to the other side. I also added some 4' fixtures to replace a few T12s that I reused for a short time. On the other side of the garage, I replaced those T12 fixures with some 8' 4 bulb fixtures that I bought from HD. The difference between the Menard's and HD are the ballast.

In the end, it's a garage with decent lighting, better than it was before. I originally bought some Phillips bulbs, not sure of the whiteness of them. When I ran out, Menard's had Buyer's Choice bulbs on sale for cheap, $20 for a 10 pack. They've been decent bulbs and I bought more of them when they are on sale for all the fixtures I replaced. these might be a 5200K, but I won't swear on it.

In the end, I've got plenty of light for me, nobody has ever claimed my garage was too dark, I still have cash in my wallet and I'm happy.
 

Onewolf

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I had to make this decision for our current garage/workshop build. The ceilings are 10'-10'6" and I'm going with T8 fixtures.

A total of 72 four foot bulbs: Garage = seven 8' 4 bulb fixtures, Wood-shop = five 4ft 2 bulb fixtures, model workshop = four 4ft 2 bulb fixtures, train room = thirteen 4ft 2 bulb fixtures. All bulbs will be 6500K.
 
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Spudland_Dave

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I had to make this decision for our current garage/workshop build. The ceilings are 10'-10'6" and I'm going with T8 fixtures.

A total of 72 four foot bulbs: Garage = seven 8' 4 bulb fixtures, Wood-shop = five 4ft 2 bulb fixtures, model workshop = four 4ft 2 bulb fixtures, train room = thirteen 4ft 2 bulb fixtures. All bulbs will be 6500K.


So In THEORY..would it not have been cheaper to go with 36 4' T5HO Bulbs & Fixtures?
Using the quick n dirty Lithonia @ Home Depot Example (FIXTURES ONLY):

T8: 72 Bulbs = 36 Fixtures (Assuming 2 per strip) @ 28.97 = 1050.00
T5HO: 36 Bulbs = 18 Fixtures @ 39.97 = 720.00

ElectricLight brought up the point about glare on a 10' cieling...thats something I'd like more info on (Real world input from people with T5HO's in this application)...
I remember back when I had time and I sat down and crunched the numbers from info I got from various posts here that I needed 24 4' T8 bulbs in my parking end of the shop to get the light I needed... If I go with T5's I can go with 12 bulbs, 6 fixtures.. Acording to the MATH, cheaper & easier to install the less T5HO fixtures...which is why I was drifting towards the feeling that in TODAYS enviroment T5HO's are better bang for the buck..
 
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CNGsaves

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Ceiling height will be a determining factor for you guys. Over 15' go T5HO. Under, go T8.

Consider LED if you burn the lights for many hours per day....then you can start to justify the initial cost by counting up the energy savings.

^ ^ Good advice for the ceiling height consideration. Research using "high bay" if you have over 15 ft ceilings.

I've been paying close attention to lighting when I go to basketball games at area high school gyms, and all old school MH (metal halide) lamps are gone. Predominant fixture is 4 or 5 bulb T5HO hung consistently across the upper ceiling. Have not noticed any retrofit LED lights, but now there are some on market at considerable price.

OP. you'll need to "Filter" the responses from Electric_Light as he won't give you any alternative from LED technology. He's 100% fluorescent only.

Cold weather climate will play a factor as well. LED will have better cold starts.

Ballast/driver interference with other RF devices is concern for both technologies so buyer beware.
 
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Spudland_Dave

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^ ^ Good advice for the ceiling height consideration. Research using "high bay" if you have over 15 ft ceilings..

Ok, so feel free to punch holes in my theory/statement/understanding here...but I THOUGHT and understood that High Bay really meant (To over simplify here) Chrome Reflectors were on the fixture. And T5HO in a "Plain white" non reflector equipped strip fixture was OK on a 10' cieling.



Good advice for the ceiling height consideration. Research using "high bay" if you have over 15 ft ceilings..

OP. you'll need to "Filter" the responses from Electric_Light as he won't give you any alternative from LED technology. He's 100% fluorescent only.

Cold weather climate will play a factor as well. LED will have better cold starts.

Ballast/driver interference with other RF devices is concern for both technologies so buyer beware.

I kinda gathered that BIAS toward Fluorescent..which is fine, I've got similar biases towards brands and technolgies myself..:bounce: but in the context of the question...I want to give all currently available & realistic solutions a shot here. We ALL know LED is coming into its own...may not be here TODAY in a form we want but its coming...
 

Electric_Light

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T8 Fixtures...the supply seems endless...would you reccomend any particular one? I'll be looking for a mix... some 8'-4 Bulb, 4'-2 Bulb and 4'-4 Bulb preferably all the same MFG...good quality, reasonable price.

Something with wings or covers and quality of cover and paint as I mentioned. Strip lights waste a lot of light.
I don't like 8' unless they're back-to-back 4' lamps. 8' lamps cost more, don't have advanced lamps and they're just a pain to handle for everyone. If you have to wear a jacket to not feel chilly, it's too cold for exposed lamps to work effectively. You can skip the cover if use clear breakage protection sleeves on each lamp to help shield the lamps from breakage, but more importantly to prevent the draft of cold air from touching the lamps. If you use decent sleeves, you're not going to get dust inside.

If you have very high dust generating activities, get lensed, sealed F54T5HO surface mounts with a smooth surface. You can use a sponge mop on a long stick for cleaning. The bulb brightness glare wouldn't be so bad as the diffuser spread it out. You'll probably have to buy these since they're not chucked that often. When paint/plastics get hot, they outgas. Fluorescent lamps are unaffected. LEDs tend to become damaged in their own outgassing BO when they're tightly sealed.

No chemicals on the plastic. Brake cleaner will starfish the plastic.
 
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Spudland_Dave

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Something with wings or covers and quality of cover and paint as I mentioned. Strip lights waste a lot of light.
I don't like 8' unless they're back-to-back 4' lamps. 8' lamps cost more, don't have advanced lamps and they're just a pain to handle for everyone.

How do strip lights "waste" a lot of light...to me, a lighting "rookie" it would just stand to reason shining light all over will help reduce shadows, etc. Using that light directionality as a key issue, wouldn't that suggest LED's are superior :headscrat I can tell you without a doubt, just sheetrocking & painting the interior white made a 200x difference in the lighting in my shop and I hadn't changed a thing...same 4 100w equivalent CFL's in temporary pig-tails hanging from the ceiling. over in my shop end, I've been temp lightinging with one of them "dorm room halogens" that shine light directly on the ceiling (free and better then nothing).

I'm a little OCD with Function & Form being hand in hand...whatever I get I'll be acquiring in one fell swoop...I want all lights & fixtures to match exactly.

Yes, I hate the 8' long bulbs too...when I said 8' long I meant the single 8' long unit which takes 4' bulbs
 

ducksface

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If you took the modest amount of out of pocket funds out of the equation, which would you buy? Pure, simple, which would you prefer if the small difference in price was not a consideration. There is an ongoing and deep seated theme across the GJ; How can I possibly do the job in the cheapest possible fashion? Based on a dollar consideration, once you make your decision you should IN NO WAY proceed until you find the units you chose available used.

If funds dictate you follow the absolutely cheapest out of pocket way to do the job...you might want to reconsider the job entirely.

There probably isn't $1000 difference in all of your considerations. Do as YOU like.
 
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Electric_Light

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So In THEORY..would it not have been cheaper to go with 36 4' T5HO Bulbs & Fixtures?
Using the quick n dirty Lithonia @ Home Depot Example (FIXTURES ONLY):

T8: 72 Bulbs = 36 Fixtures (Assuming 2 per strip) @ 28.97 = 1050.00
T5HO: 36 Bulbs = 18 Fixtures @ 39.97 = 720.00

When you're installing fixtures that need to be consistent with rest of the building and you're paying labor, it makes sense to use new ones, so with what you're describing, I wouldn't waste money on new fixtures seeing that you're going to use them maybe 1,000 hours a year. It's worth the money to get sealed fixtures that can be dusted or wiped down easily if it's a sanding shop.

I don't know what the ceiling looks like, but painting it white using eggshell paint (not too glossy, but acceptable cleanability) makes a big difference.

ElectricLight brought up the point about glare on a 10' cieling...thats something I'd like more info on (Real world input from people with T5HO's in this application)...
I remember back when I had time and I sat down and crunched the numbers from info I got from various posts here that I needed 24 4' T8 bulbs in my parking end of the shop to get the light I needed... If I go with T5's I can go with 12 bulbs, 6 fixtures.. Acording to the MATH, cheaper & easier to install the less T5HO fixtures...which is why I was drifting towards the feeling that in TODAYS enviroment T5HO's are better bang for the buck..

Basic software that calculate fc level don't show you the consistency. If the ceiling is 10m x 10m and I light it up with a 1000 lumen flash light, the light level averaged is 10 LUX. That's because you know there's 1000 lumens and the ceiling is 100 square meter, which comes out to 10 lux per square meter. Realistically, you'll have a bull's eye in the middle and dark all the way around and totally unusable as lighting. This is an extreme example, but when you use fewer fixtures, there's a greater tendency for hot spots. As the ceiling height increases or beam angle increases, the hot spot becomes less and less intense and more even.


^ ^ Good advice for the ceiling height consideration. Research using "high bay" if you have over 15 ft ceilings.
Think about it more in terms of line of sight.

I've been paying close attention to lighting when I go to basketball games at area high school gyms, and all old school MH (metal halide) lamps are gone. Predominant fixture is 4 or 5 bulb T5HO hung consistently across the upper ceiling. Have not noticed any retrofit LED lights, but now there are some on market at considerable price.

You don't see the lamps directly in a gym unless you intentionally try.
BRAND NEW out of package metal halide and T5HO are not far apart in LM/W. The huge savings come from the fact that metal halide lamps degrade more than just about everything else out there. The output of TH5O allow them to fit in place of HID fixtures with a reasonable quantity of lamps. So, MHs need to make about double the lumens initially to stay within acceptable levels for the entire useful life over thousands of hours of use.

The worst in degradation performance is metal halide. LEDs and CFLs are not that far behind. Tube fluorescent is a distant third.

OP. you'll need to "Filter" the responses from Electric_Light as he won't give you any alternative from LED technology. He's 100% fluorescent only.

It sounds like Spudland_Dave will put such few hours on it that it that it makes no difference in a practical sense and he's more concerned with the cost upfront. If he use them 12 hours a day every saturday/sunday, it's just a tad bit shy of 1,200 hours. He should probably set them up for two modes.
One setting with 2 to 4 lamps left on (using 60 to 120w), but evenly spread out for every day use, and all of them on for working.

I could not care less here if he uses light sabres, fluorescent lamps, LEDs, nuclear isotope lamps or whatever.

Ballast/driver interference with other RF devices is concern for both technologies so buyer beware.
They can, but the technology commercialized for LED drivers is naturally worse, because they modulate differently. fluorescent lamps don't do hard switched PWM to the lamps. LEDs do. LEDs are especially known for jamming garage door openers if they're too close to it.

Ok, so feel free to punch holes in my theory/statement/understanding here...but I THOUGHT and understood that High Bay really meant (To over simplify here) Chrome Reflectors were on the fixture. And T5HO in a "Plain white" non reflector equipped strip fixture was OK on a 10' cieling.

The actual ceiling height doesn't matter, but higher ceiling keeps the lamps from falling within your line of sight. Your local Home Depot might have strip T8s as well as T5HOs on display. The glare level of having T5HO in line of sight is quite obvious. T8 isn't particularly pleasant to stare into either. If you're comfortable with the glare level of T5HOs, go for it.

The store itself is probably lit with T5HOs, but they're so far up that you only see the sides (past the cut off). You will see the glare if you consciously look up.

You have probably seen a frosted white round light bulb that's about as big as a baby's head. The purpose is to make it less bright, so the lumen output is evenly and smoothly spread across the entire surface so it's visually comfortable.

If you took the modest amount of out of pocket funds out of the equation, which would you buy? Pure, simple, which would you prefer if the small difference in price was not a consideration.

If you had a choice between a 1000 page and 2000 page toner cartridge that perform the same and you only print a few pages a week. Which would you buy? If price was no factor, everyone would buy the latter. He asked a realistic question. He already knows he's only going to use them lightly. If the first was $50 and second was $60, the first one is still a better deal for someone who seldom use the printer.
 
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cybrdyke

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How do strip lights "waste" a lot of light...to me, a lighting "rookie" it would just stand to reason shining light all over will help reduce shadows, etc. Using that light directionality as a key issue, wouldn't that suggest LED's are superior :headscrat I can tell you without a doubt, just sheetrocking & painting the interior white made a 200x difference in the lighting in my shop and I hadn't changed a thing...same 4 100w equivalent CFL's in temporary pig-tails hanging from the ceiling. over in my shop end, I've been temp lightinging with one of them "dorm room halogens" that shine light directly on the ceiling (free and better then nothing).

I'm a little OCD with Function & Form being hand in hand...whatever I get I'll be acquiring in one fell swoop...I want all lights & fixtures to match exactly.

Yes, I hate the 8' long bulbs too...when I said 8' long I meant the single 8' long unit which takes 4' bulbs

Strip lights dont waste light. You dont need sheilds, louvers, lenses, tube guards, shields, or a mop on a long stick to make your T8 lights work, FFS.
T5HO's are not only too glary for low ceilings, especially when exposed, but even when lensed it's hard to space them right so as to not over light areas.
 
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Electric_Light

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How do strip lights "waste" a lot of light...to me, a lighting "rookie" it would just stand to reason shining light all over will help reduce shadows, etc. Using that light directionality as a key issue, wouldn't that suggest LED's are superior :headscrat I can tell you without a doubt, just sheetrocking & painting the interior white made a 200x difference in the lighting in my shop and I hadn't changed a thing...same 4 100w equivalent CFL's in temporary pig-tails hanging from the ceiling.

Walls and ceiling reflectivity is a huge factor. I wouldn't say LEDs as "superior". They have limited applications where they're more suitable.

Visualize a tree stump with each layer having a different light level. That's what you're seeing in the right side chart. Strip light forms more of a hot spot and a large low lighting level area.

Bare strip light with 2 lamps. This is as close as you'll get to code complaint way of screwing down the sockets directly onto the ceiling.

http://www.visual-3d.com/tools/photometricViewer/default.aspx?id=15168

Total lumen leaving the fixture is 92%.

This one's a diffuser acrylic type. This is one of those $25 builder grade stuff.
http://www.visual-3d.com/tools/photometricViewer/default.aspx?id=42911

The efficiency of lumens is 10% less, but the efficiency in total utilization is about 32% higher because of a different beam pattern, but it won't light up the walls as brightly. The average reflectivity of walls will be lower than the ceiling, because you will inevitably have posters, tools and other things hanging on them.

This one's another diffuser type, but the beam pattern is different.
http://www.visual-3d.com/tools/photometricViewer/default.aspx?id=40829

The graphs show distribution pattern but not how the light casts shadow.

Just as an FYI: You'll get considerably more lumens than the specs on the package by not having the plastic cover in place on LED fixtures like this and thats the design used by street lights and gas station canopy lights. That's how those fixtures with visible LED dimples have higher LPW rating.

If you want "comparable quality" light in softness as a regular light bulb fixture you'd have to leave the cover in place. With the powerful diffuser needed for LEDs, you lose quite a bit of lumens. If you use it without the cover, you'll see very sharp shadow and if you look at it while it's lit up, you're going to see stars in your eyes for a couple minutes. The gain in brightness is impressive, but unless it's way up in sky high or outdoor security lighting, you'll probably only last a few days and put the cover back on.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Commerci...ing-Flush-Mount-Easy-Light-54606241/204372304

over in my shop end, I've been temp lightinging with one of them "dorm room halogens" that shine light directly on the ceiling (free and better then nothing).


I'm a little OCD with Function & Form being hand in hand...whatever I get I'll be acquiring in one fell swoop...I want all lights & fixtures to match exactly.

A batch of used fixtures from a commercial retrofit job will likely get you a batch of enough matching fixtures. Everything costs money. So, if diffusers or curved metal channels didn't have functional reasons, they wouldn't use them.

Strip lights dont waste light. You dont need sheilds, louvers, lenses, tube guards, shields, or a mop on a long stick to make your T8 lights work, FFS.

Exposed lamps in chilly air reduces the output and efficiency significantly. CFLs are a bit different. CFLs run enough watts per square inch and tubes twisted to be close to each other they can stay warm a lot better.

Regarding very dusty environment:
Sealed 2x32T8 or 1x54T5HO can easily be dusted or wiped down with a long stick. Other fixtures require more work to clean or else they suffer dust lumen loss until cleaned. If the fixtures can't be cleaned easily, you need to have higher total initial output to offset the loss between cleaning.

T5HO's are not only too glary for low ceilings, especially when exposed, but even when lensed it's hard to space them right so as to not over light areas.
one lamp 54T5HO with an effective diffuser works similarly to a 2 lamp T8.
 
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bushmechanic

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My entire abode is fitted with Phillips HUE LEDs (in all their types), and I can't say enough good about them.

These particular products have been around since the early 2000s.

They were pretty much invented for a mostly failed attempt at gaming back-lights, resurrected as ambilight, and then left to gather dust before someone hatched the idea to sell them as main and ambient lighting.

They'll damned sure enough lower an electricity bill, because of the LED tech and the fact that you'll set them precisely to your needs, which is a boatload less than you might think (or program them to change throughout the day).

Every month, they seem to come up with another way to use the things, too. It's like a surprise every time you check for updates.

They ain't by any means cheap, but god knows they are worth every penny!

Even if you aren't concerned about energy and programming, you can have a lot of fun with them, and it never, never gets old.

I don't know how much I've got in these things, but it's worth it just to be able to say RED ALERT! and push one button to turn everything red.

They'll even integrate with many home automation and universal remote products. When I press "watch movie", dim red light illuminates the kitchen and bathroom, subtle neutral washes appear behind the screen and main speakers, and everything else fades off in a very theater-like manner.

Naturally, this happens after the "movie preview" setting, which provides an orange glow around the room which fades to the previously mentioned effect for the main feature.

:beer:
 

bushmechanic

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One more thing about them that's great:

Even in your darkest room, you can have them slowly ramp up to any color you want, including daylight, to wake you up naturally. Slap a ten minute or so delay on the kitchen lights (easy), and you'll wake up in a good mood and walk into a just lit kitchen ready to stumble around looking for soda.
 

Onewolf

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So In THEORY..would it not have been cheaper to go with 36 4' T5HO Bulbs & Fixtures?
Using the quick n dirty Lithonia @ Home Depot Example (FIXTURES ONLY):

T8: 72 Bulbs = 36 Fixtures (Assuming 2 per strip) @ 28.97 = 1050.00
T5HO: 36 Bulbs = 18 Fixtures @ 39.97 = 720.00

ElectricLight brought up the point about glare on a 10' cieling...thats something I'd like more info on (Real world input from people with T5HO's in this application)...
I remember back when I had time and I sat down and crunched the numbers from info I got from various posts here that I needed 24 4' T8 bulbs in my parking end of the shop to get the light I needed... If I go with T5's I can go with 12 bulbs, 6 fixtures.. Acording to the MATH, cheaper & easier to install the less T5HO fixtures...which is why I was drifting towards the feeling that in TODAYS enviroment T5HO's are better bang for the buck..

I am lighting 2220 sq ft with numerous 'task areas' and using dual 3000 lumen T8 bulbs makes it much easier to produce a lighting plan that doesn't have "burn your eyes" sun like hot spots or have noticeable shadowing in any work areas. :) If I had taller ceilings (14+ ft)in the garage area I might have considered using T5HO in there, but the ceilings are only 10'4"-10"6" so T5HO lights would be too harsh.

My lumen/sq ft calcs are:
Garage area (960 sq ft) = 90 lm/sqft
Train room (920 sq ft) = 90 lm/sqft
Woodshop (200 sq ft) = 150 lm/sqft
Model workshop (140 sq ft) = 170 lm/sqft
 

Platonic Solid

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At the end of the day it all comes down to price per fixture and $ per lumen. I’ve been busting my *** trying to build an affordable fully UL Listed LED fixture for you guys. Concentrating on 3 types: 2 Lamp 4ft strip, 2 lamp 4ft wrap (lensed), and 4 lamp 4ft wrap. I’m still building the spread sheet that compares F32T8 options to LED which I will be posting in a new thread when I’m done (soon). I might add a 4 or 6 lamp Highbay (no lens) if there is enough (or any) interest.

So far the LED Fixture pricing is as follows:
2 Lamp 4ft strip = $75 ea. Sold in 12 fixture blocks, thus $900 total
2 Lamp 4ft wrap = $85 ea. Sold in 12 fixture blocks, thus $1020 total
4 Lamp 4ft wrap = $130 ea. Sold in 6 fixture blocks, thus $780 total

From those prices, it’s hard to compete with a $20 F32T8 Fluorescent Home Depot strip fixture + $5 for lamps. ($25 total)

The only question that remains is: What is immediate full light output <-20°C cold temperature start worth to you?
 

Notgrownup

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T8 here, I won't be falling for the LED hype yet, way too new for me to dump twice as much or more than proven T8 technology. It's not like the lights will stay on all the time, so for me bang for the buck is T8.
I don't think saving a few electrical pennies in my shop will break the bank so, I am trying not to overthink it.
 
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roscoe2000

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I just went with T8, 4 tube-8ft fixtures. After comparing prices vs. energy saving per equal output, T8 won. For residential use LEDs (for me) just don't show a return investment to cover their higher cost. Since it is a relatively new technology the cost will be high as the industry sorts itself out. So I'll sit on the fence as wait
 

Platonic Solid

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Another reason to go 4ft T8 is it's future proof - meaning that you will be able to easily upgrade to LED retrofit lamps in the future. You need to look at LED technology the same way you look at computers. The price is not going to drop, but the Lumens per Watt will increase for the same price. Then you're faced with the decision of buying last years inefficient model for cheap or the new "best thing ever made" (until tomorrow).
 
OP
S

Spudland_Dave

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If you took the modest amount of out of pocket funds out of the equation, which would you buy? Pure, simple, which would you prefer if the small difference in price was not a consideration. There is an ongoing and deep seated theme across the GJ; How can I possibly do the job in the cheapest possible fashion? Based on a dollar consideration, once you make your decision you should IN NO WAY proceed until you find the units you chose available used.

If funds dictate you follow the absolutely cheapest out of pocket way to do the job...you might want to reconsider the job entirely.

There probably isn't $1000 difference in all of your considerations. Do as YOU like.

The reason I havent installed lighting yet (been 2 years now) is exactly this...i'm a person who would rather wait and get what he wants the first time.
Money being a non-issue, if you sent me a gift card today to purchase whatever I wanted, I probably would have gone with T5HO fixtures & lights.
Because I tend to think and over-think everything is the reason I ask questions and DEBATE the T5HO thing..Hate to get em installed and end up with crappy lighting cause of too bright, not spaced out enough, etc..

It sounds like Spudland_Dave will put such few hours on it that it that it makes no difference in a practical sense and he's more concerned with the cost upfront. If he use them 12 hours a day every saturday/sunday, it's just a tad bit shy of 1,200 hours. He should probably set them up for two modes.
One setting with 2 to 4 lamps left on (using 60 to 120w), but evenly spread out for every day use, and all of them on for working.


Actually I dont really care about upfront cost in the big picture, I was offered a pile of free T8 fixtures which had reflectors on them...I turned them down cause I didnt want the 1970's era looking fixtures..and I figured I didnt need reflectors, IMHO the reflectors would just cause shadows on the cieling... I could have had "Permanent" lighting a year ago had I taken those lights...but I want something that LOOKS good and WORKS good. That being said...I also like to watch my pennies...I dont mind paying premium prices when I get a premium return. Thats my issue with LED today...Premium prices but the performance is not currently premium.


If you had a choice between a 1000 page and 2000 page toner cartridge that perform the same and you only print a few pages a week. Which would you buy? If price was no factor, everyone would buy the latter. He asked a realistic question. He already knows he's only going to use them lightly. If the first was $50 and second was $60, the first one is still a better deal for someone who seldom use the printer.

I would have bought the 2000pg cartridge...few bucks more with 2x the return.

I am lighting 2220 sq ft with numerous 'task areas' and using dual 3000 lumen T8 bulbs makes it much easier to produce a lighting plan that doesn't have "burn your eyes" sun like hot spots or have noticeable shadowing in any work areas. :) If I had taller ceilings (14+ ft)in the garage area I might have considered using T5HO in there, but the ceilings are only 10'4"-10"6" so T5HO lights would be too harsh.

My lumen/sq ft calcs are:
Garage area (960 sq ft) = 90 lm/sqft
Train room (920 sq ft) = 90 lm/sqft
Woodshop (200 sq ft) = 150 lm/sqft
Model workshop (140 sq ft) = 170 lm/sqft

Are they different rooms? My shop is 30x50, there is no wall or hard partition but a person could say that 1/2 of it (25x30) is the Parking area and the other 25x50 area is my fab shop.
Train room huh...I do S-Scale :pimpflash My Model Workshop in my basement is lit with 6500k Daylight bulbs..never measured the room or the lighting, but Its VERY Well lit. especially over my benches.
 

Platonic Solid

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Nothing. We have no cold start problems in central Florida.

What is the effective lumen output of your LED fixtures?
2350Lm per lamp, thus 4700Lm per 2 lamp strip, 22W per lamp - 105L/W - 4000K >83CRI, UL Classified & DLC Listed Lamps with UL Listed & Labeled assembly. I don't have the transmittance loss factor for the lensed wraps yet, but I can guarantee it will be at least 10%.
 

Onewolf

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Are they different rooms? My shop is 30x50, there is no wall or hard partition but a person could say that 1/2 of it (25x30) is the Parking area and the other 25x50 area is my fab shop.
Train room huh...I do S-Scale :pimpflash My Model Workshop in my basement is lit with 6500k Daylight bulbs..never measured the room or the lighting, but Its VERY Well lit. especially over my benches.

4 different rooms. Here's the floorplan of the building. The lighting configuration has changed a little bit (the 4ft fixtures in the garage were changed to 8ft quad fixtures and 3 additional fixtures were added to the train room).

DG_E2_FloorplanLayoutOverlay.jpg
 

DonPowers

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The reason I havent installed lighting yet (been 2 years now) is exactly this...i'm a person who would rather wait and get what he wants the first time.

I'm in the same boat Dave. Went to Lowes in PI yesterday looking at lighting, didn't see what I want yet. Will probably get a few different style fixtures to see how I like the light before I choose.

So far I have put in 12 cans with 750 lumen LEDs for general area lighting and want something better for task lighting.

Finding that as I get older I need more light, so I don't want to be changing things out down the road just to be able to see.
 

DC73

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Another reason to go 4ft T8 is it's future proof - meaning that you will be able to easily upgrade to LED retrofit lamps in the future.

This is where my head is at the moment. Given that, a few posts above you mentioned your LED assemblies would have a hard time competing with $20 F32T8 Fluorescent Home Depot strips. But, are those HD strips a good bang for the buck? I'm willing to pony up more for decent strips with quality ballasts. Anything in particular you would recommend?

Thanks,

DC
 

Electric_Light

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2350Lm per lamp, thus 4700Lm per 2 lamp strip, 22W per lamp - 105L/W - 4000K >83CRI, UL Classified & DLC Listed Lamps with UL Listed & Labeled assembly. I don't have the transmittance loss factor for the lensed wraps yet, but I can guarantee it will be at least 10%.

Just as reference points:
Halophane
HFZ 654 is listed as 96%
654 ACL as 81.1%
About 15%.
They're direct lighting, <5% UL and identical except the ACL is lensed.

But this wrap around is listed at 92%, which means that it has to be less than 10% in this case.
http://www.visual-3d.com/tools/photometricViewer/default.aspx?id=40829
 

Platonic Solid

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This is where my head is at the moment. Given that, a few posts above you mentioned your LED assemblies would have a hard time competing with $20 F32T8 Fluorescent Home Depot strips. But, are those HD strips a good bang for the buck? I'm willing to pony up more for decent strips with quality ballasts. Anything in particular you would recommend?

Thanks,

DC
Economy boxes isn't my expertise. I was only trying to help you guys out. I don't have enough product exposure to this part of the market to make a recommendation. Best to just go to HD - look and touch - (bring band-aids as the metal is quite thin).

I will cover this in more detail when I post the spreadsheet I'm working on.
 
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Platonic Solid

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FWIW my previous fixture price quote has a qty restriction due to the lamps coming inconveniently packaged in a box of 25 = 5 rows of 5 lamps, thus there’s an extra lamp. (but wait…there’s more… you get an extra LED lamp absolutely free!.. LOL). As soon as we have to open the box of lamps and repackage for individual fixture sale the fixture price jumps.
 

DC73

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I will cover this in more detail when I post the spreadsheet I'm working on.

Good. I've got some time still. I figure a cheap fixture will get the job done if the ballast is up to par. And that's probably the issue. How to determine whether a ballast is a decent one or a piece of junk?

DC
 
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