Nitrogen caution!!!!
- Thread starter DangerousDan55
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Been in an industry that uses nitrogen for blanketing storage tanks for 15 years. Check out what the chemical safety board has to say. Hey man, I've got no problem if you've evolved to the point where you can breathe pure f$%&ing nitrogen. Let the rest of us be safe in the mean time.
Professur
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So if the tank is pressurised, how does that figure in?
:facepalm:
Hybridss
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So if the tank is pressurised, how does that figure in?
Exactly as described. The 330 cf is the volume of the gas unpressurized. Or more correctly...at 14.7 psi. That 330 cf was confined to a space of approx 2 cf when in the bottle.
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nehog
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I've seen a glorious amount of non-science today... My day is complete!
Hybridss
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Safety discussion is usually a good thing. And Nitrogen does in fact pose a risk....in various ways. But IMO the risk has been overstated here.
I'm curious if you fly in airplanes, or drive cars, or go out on a boat? Do you walk in flower gardens? Do you travel from Mokena into downtown Chicago at times? If you do, all of those activities are at least 10-100 times more likely to kill you and your family.
And I hope to hell you don't have a 5-gallon bucket anywhere around the house! They're about 10 times more deadly than nitrogen to small children:
http://www.readabstracts.com/Health...ngs-and-near-drownings-associated-with-s.html
I'd say I've evolved to the point where I can differentiate between risk and fear:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/joe-robinson/risk-vs-fear-why-you-need_b_733089.html
The dangers you mention above can be seen, smelled, tasted etc. Someone mentioned H2S which is deadly no doubt, but it does have a smell. Nitrogen cannot be tasted, smelled or sensed in any way by the body.
Your analysis is based largely on the chance of exposure, not the risk once exposed. I work with people who have a high chance of exposure to nitrogen, therefore, the risk is significant to us. In a previous job I dealt with Nitrogen on an hourly basis, more exposure for me than driving a car, walking in flower gardens etc.
Bottom line, if you're gonna use nitrogen, you need to be educated in its use. Plenty of people have died because they didn't have that education or chose to ignore it.
But more danger comes when you don't smell it, which means its probably still there, and your sense of smell has been killed, as likely the parties involved. Thry also say once you smell it, you're done. If you ever get to Smell it. Lel monitors go off at 10ppm.
pcmeiners
Well-known member
"Nitrogen displaces oxygen which creates an inert atmosphere", if that were the case everyone on earth would be dead in minutes, nitrogen mixes with O2.
Almost everything you actively do in your house ,on the way to work, or at work is likely more dangerous on average then nitrogen gas used in a shop.... turning on your car or getting into the shower is far more dangerous...god forbidden, you use a stairs, a hair dryer, or eat a sandwich.
Almost everything you actively do in your house ,on the way to work, or at work is likely more dangerous on average then nitrogen gas used in a shop.... turning on your car or getting into the shower is far more dangerous...god forbidden, you use a stairs, a hair dryer, or eat a sandwich.
redmondjp
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The far bigger danger from any pressurized gas bottle is the risk of damage to the valve and having it shoot around the garage like a missile.
Lx460
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Many times more people die each year from inhaling deadly amounts of Dihydrogen Monoxide. It's especially a high risk among fisherman, divers, or anyone who spends a fair amount of time around water.
James_B
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Long before I had a compressor, I used bottled nitrogen to power my airbrush in my studio (bottled nitrogen was cheaper than bottled compressed air). I'd empty an "E" size bottle (3.2 Cubic Metres) in an evening of painting. Never had any problems in my 150 sq ft enclosed studio.
Some basic mathematics will answer the questions.
An E sized bottle contained 113 cubic feet. A 150 sq foot room with 8 foot ceilings has a volume of 1200 cubic feet being roughly 960 cubic feet nitrogen and 240 cubic feet of Oxygen. The worst case scenario would see 113 cubic feet of Nitrogen in the cylinder displacing just the oxygen in the room and absolutely none of the existing nitrogen. In that case I'd be down to just 127 cu feet of oxygen in a 1200 cubic foot room. That makes it a 10.5%/89.5% mix. That's the same effective oxygen content as being at around 5000metres/16000 feet elevation with an 20%/80% mix ... uncomfortable but not a problem. I've asthmatic and have spent weeks at 12000 feet elevation in Peru without problems (that's 66% sea level air pressure).
Some basic mathematics will answer the questions.
An E sized bottle contained 113 cubic feet. A 150 sq foot room with 8 foot ceilings has a volume of 1200 cubic feet being roughly 960 cubic feet nitrogen and 240 cubic feet of Oxygen. The worst case scenario would see 113 cubic feet of Nitrogen in the cylinder displacing just the oxygen in the room and absolutely none of the existing nitrogen. In that case I'd be down to just 127 cu feet of oxygen in a 1200 cubic foot room. That makes it a 10.5%/89.5% mix. That's the same effective oxygen content as being at around 5000metres/16000 feet elevation with an 20%/80% mix ... uncomfortable but not a problem. I've asthmatic and have spent weeks at 12000 feet elevation in Peru without problems (that's 66% sea level air pressure).
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Sal Bandini
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The bottom line is this thread has succeeded in presenting a dilemma that will never occur in a home environment.
Murphys law says never say never. Highly unlikely yes. Impossible, never, no
OP
DangerousDan55
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"I just can't see a small leak ever displacing enough oxygen to make a dent in the available oxygen."
You said it perfectly. "I just can't see...."
I've been called to deaths that happened when the guy was "just messing" with a nitrogen connection.
He was breathing the "AIR" where the gas was leaking out.
So you tell me that it ONLY can happen if the Entire room is Completely filled with nitrogen?
And, its like going out for the weekend with the wife and kids, then all of a sudden you wonder if you turned the kitchen stove off. THAT NEVER HAPPENS. Right?
The stove or the N2 leak goes all weekend .
If there is a N2 leak and no one is home to here it, does it still leak? Or is that only a tree in the forest joke.
Now the joke in the HAZMAT field on dumb *** dead guys is, he should have turned his head to the side to breathe that pure pocket of air that is just over their shoulder.
It is clear that some of you Never deal with dead people & their mistakes.
You said it perfectly. "I just can't see...."
I've been called to deaths that happened when the guy was "just messing" with a nitrogen connection.
He was breathing the "AIR" where the gas was leaking out.
So you tell me that it ONLY can happen if the Entire room is Completely filled with nitrogen?
And, its like going out for the weekend with the wife and kids, then all of a sudden you wonder if you turned the kitchen stove off. THAT NEVER HAPPENS. Right?
The stove or the N2 leak goes all weekend .
If there is a N2 leak and no one is home to here it, does it still leak? Or is that only a tree in the forest joke.
Now the joke in the HAZMAT field on dumb *** dead guys is, he should have turned his head to the side to breathe that pure pocket of air that is just over their shoulder.
It is clear that some of you Never deal with dead people & their mistakes.
big.jim
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apparently the use of nitrogen bottles in a home environment in the us is more prevalent than the uk ,tyre shops in the uk dont use bottled nitrogen they use a nitrogen filter tyre inflater that removes majority of the oxygen and other gases and leaves predominantly nitrogen in the tyres running from a standard air line
And yet the statistics report 8.5 deaths per year nationwide (or roughly .0000028% of the population). And the vast majority of those were in an enclosed vessel that would contain the nitrogen (and dilute the oxygen). I'm sorry, but I don't buy it....
rlitman
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+1 Well said!
BTW, a CO2 cylinder (used for welding, or maybe a soda/beer system) has a liquid inside, instead of a gas. So a CO2 cylinder the same size as a nitrogen cylinder may hold five times as much gas inside.
On top of that, CO2 is toxic at levels far below the point where it displaces enough O2 to become an asphyxiation risk.
While nitrogen can indeed be a risk (especially in an industrial environment, or when liquid nitrogen is used), CO2 is a far more real risk, and is far more commonly used.
jaye944
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keelan
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I heard that driving a car is dangerous too.
rburke65
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Keelan..... are you serious? I had no idea....... This thread just keeps getting better and better.....
nehog
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And finally someone gets it right! And James didn't even take into account that most rooms and garages are no where nearly air-tight that a constant flow of air dilutes this even more.
I'd argue this more, but I have to go and prepare for the 20 ft of snow we're getting tomorrow, along with the 190 MPH winds. I only want to know can I plow snow when it is higher than the roof of my truck?
beakie
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are we able to gain an immunity from this deadly killer the way we can other deadly objects?
IE shooting oneself in the limbs with smaller .22 rounds and working up to 9mm sized rounds in the torso so the body can work up a healthy tolerance for such things.
Could we all start inhaling slightly increased amounts of Nitrogen, teaching our body to become more tolerant/accepting of more nitrogen than typical. Eventually maybe even being able to survive on 100% nitrogen for short periods of time?
let's start asking some real questions here folks.
IE shooting oneself in the limbs with smaller .22 rounds and working up to 9mm sized rounds in the torso so the body can work up a healthy tolerance for such things.
Could we all start inhaling slightly increased amounts of Nitrogen, teaching our body to become more tolerant/accepting of more nitrogen than typical. Eventually maybe even being able to survive on 100% nitrogen for short periods of time?
let's start asking some real questions here folks.
This thread makes more sense if we look at the risk differently. The risk to the general population will always be vanishingly small. But the risk to the new class of untrained shops and homeowners equiping with N2 setups is real. Sure, if nothing goes wrong - nothing leaks and the shops are big enough and well ventilated enough - all is well. But some of that new class are going to do ignorant things like keep the tank in a closet or in a vehicle.
So the warning is appropriate. I bet even those who see no risk are likely going to think twice when handling this equipment, so a small victory for he op and his supporters.
Thanks.
So the warning is appropriate. I bet even those who see no risk are likely going to think twice when handling this equipment, so a small victory for he op and his supporters.
Thanks.
I read a few weeks ago that Oklahoma and a few other states are looking into using nitrogen in a "new" gas chamber for executions. This is because of the "problems" with some of the lethal injection executions. The quick loss of consciousness should make people feel better about using it (except for the guy in the chamber); the convulsions bit I can see some raising a stink about.
keelan
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James_B
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I did the same "worst case" calculations 40 years ago when I decided to use nitrogen as the propellant for my airbrush. I encountered so many people telling me how dangerous it would be to use nitrogen indoors (including the counter staff at the gas supplier), that I did the numbers to confirm just how full of **** they were.
When I used to work at the university in the physics dept. they had a nitrogen generator that filled bottles. Whenever I had to go in the room for maintenance I had to leave to door open and place a sign on the door warning not to close the door. You were not allowed in the room without leaving the door open. I would imagine this would be good practice where ever you store nitrogen. In an enclosed space it can be dangerous but as long as there is ventilation you should be ok.
A nitrogen cylinder leak isn't going to result in asphyxiation unless the leak is in a confined location. More inert gas is vented in a shop environment during MIG and TIG welding than a small cylinder leak will vent.
I can see a hazard in knocking the valves off a couple of inert gas cylinders in a home garage, but I think I'd be more worried about the mechanical hazard of a 120lb cylinder flying though space.
Now, I can see a real asphyxiation hazard in a shop environment with liquified gasses. Knocking a styrofoam cooler full of liquid N2 off a bench would quickly inert an average sized room as the liquid boils on the warm floor. Likewise, venting the contents of a CO2 cylinder in a small garage could result in a real hazard.
I can see a hazard in knocking the valves off a couple of inert gas cylinders in a home garage, but I think I'd be more worried about the mechanical hazard of a 120lb cylinder flying though space.
Now, I can see a real asphyxiation hazard in a shop environment with liquified gasses. Knocking a styrofoam cooler full of liquid N2 off a bench would quickly inert an average sized room as the liquid boils on the warm floor. Likewise, venting the contents of a CO2 cylinder in a small garage could result in a real hazard.
Not trying to be a ****, but just how many dead guys have you found by n2 asphyxiation? Considering the recorded incidences are so low I just find it hard to believe you are finding so many of these n2 deaths yourself and having to handle it.
keelan
Well-known member
For the people that are telling us a leaky N2 tank in our garage will kill us all dead, PLEASE read the post from James_B.
Or just keep plugging your ears and yelling LA LA LA. Both are equally entertaining.
Or just keep plugging your ears and yelling LA LA LA. Both are equally entertaining.
I agree with teaching kids to be responsible with tools, but I don't understand why nitrogen is being singled out over all the other dangerous items most of us have in our shop that are much, much more common than nitrogen. BTW, who let's kids fill bicycle tires with nitrogen??? what's the point?
As an engineer I was intrigued about the filling of tires with nitrogen and while there are numerous claims for it I really only see it as useful for its "dry" properties. For example, race tires can get very hot so any moisture in them may over-inflate them under worse case racing conditions. Additionally, moisture can migrate into the carcass of truck tires and corrode steel reinforcements, so dry nitrogen may extend their working lives of several retreads.
But there seems to be no point for average car tires. And in the case of bike tires which use inner tubes there is no risk of corrosion. I think the whole nitrogen craze is in the same genre as over-hyped speaker wire (ie, Monster Cable) or weight loss products.
Hazards of N2 are real, but another dangerous chemical that is responsible for more deaths and widespread destruction is rarely discussed. Likely a conspiracy to hide its hazards from the public:
Di Hydrogen Monoxide
Heed the warnings: http://www.dhmo.org
Di Hydrogen Monoxide
Heed the warnings: http://www.dhmo.org
LS6 Tommy
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Every human being drinks that stuff 100% undiluted on a daily basis. So far, no ill effects in recorded history...
Tommy
gatorgrabber
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Great link...time to see which of my friends are paying attention this morning! 
rlitman
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Every human being drinks that stuff 100% undiluted on a daily basis. So far, no ill effects in recorded history...
Tommy
Actually, drinking to much CAN have ill effects.
LS6 Tommy
Well-known member
Yup. I was just referring to "normal" consumption of the highly dangers chemical...
Tommy
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