Is AF socket same as Whitworth?

[dfndr]

I was looking on ebay for socket set to use on Brit bike. I searched for "Whitworth" and there was a German set that came up but it said "AF". Is this the same? Thanks

 

[Art From De Leon]

I thought that AF referred to "American Fine" threads, before SAE became the preferred term, but that would have nothing to do with the head size.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

I asked this a few months back during a discussion of European tools. On of the members from Britain said it meant "Across Flats" meaning it is sized SAE fractional.

Whitworth tools are marked with a fractional size like 9/16 followed by a W. The size being the size of the stud that the nut is screwed onto.

If you are referring to the Gedore 1/2 drive socket set, it goes from 7/16 to 1" AF. 1" in whitworth would be huge. You can judge from the size of the 1/2 square drive, the 1" socket is indeed about one inch across. I think the seller is mis-using the term Whitworth.

www.samstagsales.com (located here in the US) is one source of European made tools, including Whitworth sized tools.

Charles

 

[Autoguy]

I asked this a few months back during a discussion of European tools. On of the members from Britain said it meant "Across Flats" meaning it is sized SAE fractional.

Whitworth tools are marked with a fractional size like 9/16 followed by a W. The size being the size of the stud that the nut is screwed onto.

If you are referring to the Gedore 1/2 drive socket set, it goes from 7/16 to 1" AF. 1" in whitworth would be huge. You can judge from the size of the 1/2 square drive, the 1" socket is indeed about one inch across. I think the seller is mis-using the term Whitworth.

www.samstagsales.com (located here in the US) is one source of European made tools, including Whitworth sized tools.

Charles

I have a Britool sockets with AF and they are actually SAE. The wihteworth will have w> Isaw this in a Gordon socktet made in England.

 

[plewlandsbob]

Hi from Britain,
AF does mean "across flats" these are the same size as SAE sizes. Whitworth tools are stamped with the fractional size,followed by a W , as previously mentioned and the fractional size does mean the thread diameter as opposed to head size with SAE sizes. A 9/16"W socket is the same size as a 1" SAE socket.
Most Whitworth sizes, match up to metric sizes.
Off top of my head, 5/16w= 15mm , 3/8w=18mm , 7/16w=21mm=13/16SAE=13/16"AF , 9/16w=1"sae=1"AF, 11/16"W=31mm.
The worst size is 1/4"w it has a head size that lands somewhere around 13.5mm. 9/16 and 14mm is too big 13mm is too small,unless bolt head has seen some abuse.
Whitworth bolts use a coarse thread that is almost exactly the same as unified coarse,Have used unc bolts in place of whitworth many times with no problem. 1/2w is exception, it has a totally unique thread pitch.
If bolts are fine threaded, these are British Standard Fine, BSF.
Can give more information later if required, have to go to work now.It's 7.30 am here.
Robert

 

[dfndr]

Thanks Charles, Autoguy and plewlandsbob(I guess thats a British name!)--This is quite confusing-I have a set of Chinese offset double end box wrenchs from about 30 years ago that say "BSW" and an old set of Koken sockets that say "BS". These were bought long ago to work on an old MG. Are they "Whitworth" for older Brit motorcycle? And yes, it was the Gedore set I was looking at. I guess that's not quite King **** quality. By the way, if you Google King **** tools you get some unexpected answers!

 

[snapmom]

You would need Whitworth or British Standard. (They both fit the older British machines) The whitworth (used) tools are usually older.

 

[pipehack]

Some British bike suppliers (in fact most) sell Whitworth wrenches and socket sets. Morries place in Ringwood Illinois (815- 653-7000) M.A.P. cycle (727-381-1151) and Britech of New England ( number not handy at this time will hook you up) They are all great guys to deal with. Britech will build you one hell of an engine but you'll have to have deep pockets. In fact so powerful it will rip your arms off. Talk to Jay over there. I've used all these guys at one time or another.

 

[jgromada]

Just got a whitworth socket in a lot of sockets i just picked up. (Didn't want to open a new thread)

Unless you have a 1960s British sports car or bike does anyone use (or want) Whitworth now?

 

[ttpete]

Just got a whitworth socket in a lot of sockets i just picked up. (Didn't want to open a new thread)

Unless you have a 1960s British sports car or bike does anyone use (or want) Whitworth now?

Sure. Anyone with a pre-1969 British motorcycle.

 

[GrantCee]

[...] does anyone use (or want) Whitworth now?

Apparently so, because Ko-ken makes a surprisingly wide variety of Whitworth sockets: 6- and 12-point, standard and deep, and even swivel.

Even more surprisingly, Palmac apparently has all of them in stock.

 

[dscheidt]

Apparently so, because Ko-ken makes a surprisingly wide variety of Whitworth sockets: 6- and 12-point, standard and deep, and even swivel.

Even more surprisingly, Palmac apparently has all of them in stock.

They show up on other stuff, too. Pre-war machine tools, airplanes, etc, a number of which are still around. Also, nearly everyone I know who bought a first british car in the last decade or so went out and bought a bunch of whitworth tools, and they're not terribly price sensitive about it....

 

[ttpete]

They show up on other stuff, too. Pre-war machine tools, airplanes, etc, a number of which are still around. Also, nearly everyone I know who bought a first british car in the last decade or so went out and bought a bunch of whitworth tools, and they're not terribly price sensitive about it....

The Rolls-Royce reciprocating aircraft engines all use Whitworth fasteners.

I have one toolbox drawer that's all Whitworth tools.

 

[Dave455]

Thanks Charles, Autoguy and plewlandsbob(I guess thats a British name!)--This is quite confusing-I have a set of Chinese offset double end box wrenchs from about 30 years ago that say "BSW" and an old set of Koken sockets that say "BS". These were bought long ago to work on an old MG. Are they "Whitworth" for older Brit motorcycle? And yes, it was the Gedore set I was looking at. I guess that's not quite King **** quality. By the way, if you Google King **** tools you get some unexpected answers!

Don’t panic! It’s fairly straightforward!

Originally, bolts were just called Whitworth. They had a coarse thread (optimum for iron) and a relatively large bolt head (measuring twice the bolt diameter, across the points). Later on, these became British Standard Whitworth or BSW. They are the same thing. The wrench is marked with the thread size, not the bolt head size.

British Standard Fine (BSF) are fine threads for steel. If you think of BSW and BSF as comparable to NC and NF, you’ve got the idea. BSF bolts used a bolt head one size smaller than BSW. Typically, both sizes would be marked on a wrench, sometimes only the BSW.

During the war, as a metal saving measure, it was decided to use the smaller size bolt heads for BSW as well as BSF. So for any post war bolt there is only one head size per bolt diameter, the BS size. It’s the same as BSF.

 

[richfinn]

Whitworth sockets readily available from Ko-ken dealers and cheap too, always on sale!!!

 

[Dave455]

The Rolls-Royce reciprocating aircraft engines all use Whitworth fasteners.

So do many of the jets, and the turboprops...!

 

[Dave455]

Just got a whitworth socket in a lot of sockets i just picked up. (Didn't want to open a new thread)

Unless you have a 1960s British sports car or bike does anyone use (or want) Whitworth now?

I use Whitworth regularly, setting up machines. Both my lathes, both my mills, and even my drill (built in the late ‘80s) are all Whitworth.

Bikes, tractors, farm implements, etc etc all use them. If you work on aero engines or railways you will need them too.

The only thing you won’t need them for is a 1960’s British car. The motor industry went “unified” in ‘58!

 

[Dave455]

I thought that AF referred to "American Fine" threads, before SAE became the preferred term, but that would have nothing to do with the head size.

In the U.K. A/F generally means “Across Flats”, as others have correctly stated. This is to differentiate a a British 1/4” wrench that refers to a 1/4” bolt size, from an American 1/4” wrench that refers to the size across the flats of the nut.

American threads were known in America as National Coarse or National Fine, but in the U.K. we had our own National standards so knew these as American Coarse or American Fine.

A/F therefore means “across flats” in respect of wrenches, but “American Fine” in respect of say a thread tap. Both are British terms.

My Grandfather, who worked on British trucks before the war, and American ones during and after, always (correctly) referred to American bolt head sizes as “SAE”.

 

[ttpete]

In the U.K. A/F generally means “Across Flats”, as others have correctly stated. This is to differentiate a a British 1/4” wrench that refers to a 1/4” bolt size, from an American 1/4” wrench that refers to the size across the flats of the nut.

American threads were known in America as National Coarse or National Fine, but in the U.K. we had our own National standards so knew these as American Coarse or American Fine.

A/F therefore means “across flats” in respect of wrenches, but “American Fine” in respect of say a thread tap. Both are British terms.

My Grandfather, who worked on British trucks before the war, and American ones during and after, always (correctly) referred to American bolt head sizes as “SAE”.

After WWII, the UK and US agreed on thread standards and the result was called Unified. There was UNC, Unified National Coarse, and UNF, Unified National Fine. The fine series was originally called SAE because it was a standard of the Society of Automotive Engineers. UNF fasteners have smaller hex sizes than UNC for a given diameter, similar to BSW-BSF.

 

[Dave455]

After WWII, the UK and US agreed on thread standards and the result was called Unified. There was UNC, Unified National Coarse, and UNF, Unified National Fine. The fine series was originally called SAE because it was a standard of the Society of Automotive Engineers. UNF fasteners have smaller hex sizes than UNC for a given diameter, similar to BSW-BSF.

Yes, pretty much!

SAE, generally refers to a range of nut / bolt head sizes, and was the newer standard used by the U.S. after the older United States Standard.

SAE long predates “Unified”. An American bolt from, say, the wartime era would typically have a National Fine (or National Coarse) threadform with an SAE bolt head. Unified didn’t come about till the 50’s

Unified threads are very similar to National Fine / Coarse, and in the U.S few folks noticed the transition. The bolt heads remain the same SAE sizes. In the U.K it was a bigger deal as everything changed!