Time to wake up the sleeping giant: PoE vs Romex

[Platonic Solid]

I'm researching making PoE (Power Over Ethernet) via Cat6 light fixtures.
I'm interested in any pro and con opinions on this technology in comparison to using standard house wiring.
Here's a wiki link that describes the basic technology: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_over_Ethernet

 

[Stuff]

Main cons are price and lack of standards. I have never seen a PoE light switch nor PoE light fixtures. Then there is the issue of the power supply - convert 120v to 48v and use a power injector or and expensive PoE network switch.

Similar argument for using speaker wire and 24 volt batteries.

 

[Platonic Solid]

Main cons are price and lack of standards. I have never seen a PoE light switch nor PoE light fixtures. Then there is the issue of the power supply - convert 120v to 48v and use a power injector or and expensive PoE network switch.

Similar argument for using speaker wire and 24 volt batteries.

For our purposes the switch would control the 120VAC LED Driver. Driver output to Light Fixtures via PoE. No conduit required, no permit, no licensed electrician except for remote driver install (unless driver is provided as wall socket plug-in).

 

[The-Ghost]

POE otherwise known as:
IEEE 802.3af-2003 PoE standard provides up to 15.4 W of DC power @ 48v

or

IEEE 802.3at-2009 PoE standard also known as PoE+ or PoE plus, provides up to 25.5 W @ 48v.

You've lost me when you say its doing to control the AC drivers, are you intending to build a POE powered Lighting controller that would then control a number of fixtures?

If not it sounds like you're attempting to have a light that is powered via AC but having its control system powered by a different means (POE/+) yet still be in one self contained fixture.

If the second scenario is what you're attempting to do id expect you could reduce the BOM and complexity of the fixture by relying on the AC supply to power the fixture and the control and have the fixture simply be controlled via IP, which would also open up a more marketable customer base because a lower cost switch can be used for the IP controls vs a costly POE(+) switch.

 

[rockwithjason]

you are solving a problem that doesn't exist with a solution that costs 10 times as much. good luck with that.

 

[cybrdyke]

There's currently alot of research being done (and product will exist soon) using USB powered LED fixtures. The USB can handle enough power and the fixtures dont draw that much, so theoretically it could work. This is for POWER, not just control.
In the real world, it would be a culture shift that might start World War III. You will have union electricians that no longer install lighting, relinquishing that part of the job to the datacom union guy. They aren't gonna let that go down without a fight.

 

[Platonic Solid]

POE otherwise known as:
IEEE 802.3af-2003 PoE standard provides up to 15.4 W of DC power @ 48v

or

IEEE 802.3at-2009 PoE standard also known as PoE+ or PoE plus, provides up to 25.5 W @ 48v.

You've lost me when you say its doing to control the AC drivers, are you intending to build a POE powered Lighting controller that would then control a number of fixtures?

If not it sounds like you're attempting to have a light that is powered via AC but having its control system powered by a different means (POE/+) yet still be in one self contained fixture.

If the second scenario is what you're attempting to do id expect you could reduce the BOM and complexity of the fixture by relying on the AC supply to power the fixture and the control and have the fixture simply be controlled via IP, which would also open up a more marketable customer base because a lower cost switch can be used for the IP controls vs a costly POE(+) switch.

Just want to put 120VAC to one or more LED Drivers - ON/OFF via standard 120VAC wall switch (at Driver input) - Cat6 from LED Driver output to LED fixtures. Cat6 is capable of 51W over 100ft if using all twisted pairs for power. Thus, no LED driver in fixture.

 

[Platonic Solid]

you are solving a problem that doesn't exist with a solution that costs 10 times as much. good luck with that.

No, I'm researching the pros and cons of a technology possibility before doing anything.
Not 10 times as much when you figure in no permit, no electrician, ease of future driver replacement, ease of fixture installation...

 

[Platonic Solid]

... In the real world, it would be a culture shift that might start World War III. You will have union electricians that no longer install lighting, relinquishing that part of the job to the datacom union guy. They aren't gonna let that go down without a fight.

Exactly, hence the title of the thread.

 

[APEowner]

I still don't understand the topology that you're proposing. Is there going to be data going from the controller to the LED fixtures or just power?

 

[jgorm]

Have you seen how thin the wires are in Cat6? There is no way I would attempt to run any type of useful light off of them. I run cameras on POE, and other network appliances, but will never run lights on them.

 

[Platonic Solid]

I still don't understand the topology that you're proposing. Is there going to be data going from the controller to the LED fixtures or just power?

No, only power (initially). There is the future possibility of more elaborate controlling options, but that's not what I'm after right now.

 

[Platonic Solid]

Have you seen how thin the wires are in Cat6? There is no way I would attempt to run any type of useful light off of them. I run cameras on POE, and other network appliances, but will never run lights on them.

With 51W capability over long distances, consider the following future LED scenarios:
150L/W x 50W = 7,500Lm
200L/W x 50W = 10,000Lm
250L/W x 50W = 12,500Lm

 

[justsam]

Interesting idea. Do you know of any work being done in Standards Bodies that are looking into this?

Clearly the use of LEDs in this time of transition makes for some clumsy implementations involving multiple power conversions with some loss of efficiency. A central low voltage source, with a STAR topology probably would make the most sense with todays technology. The use of readily available wiring such as Cat 6 makes sense to me. The slightly larger conductors in Cat 6 also helps.

I do think I would make them SMART in some way, just because that is available even today with conversion type bulbs using either WiFi or Bluetooth. Don't need speed so 10BaseT could be multiplexed over current carrying conductors, or use four of the conductors as it does today.

As mentioned there will be huge push back, and would cause no end of turmoil in some of the trades, but progress usually does!

 

[APEowner]

No, only power (initially). There is the future possibility of more elaborate controlling options, but that's not what I'm after right now.

Interesting. I'm not sure you've got a viable product there. What you're describing (if I'm understanding correctly) is essentially a low voltage home lighting system like was sometimes done in high end homes in the 50's, 60's and 70's. It's possible that the lower costs and more sophisticated controls possible with today's technology might make them more attractive but they never really caught on before.

No conduit required, no permit, no licensed electrician except for remote driver install (unless driver is provided as wall socket plug-in).

This may be true in some municipalities but it's certainly not universally true. The NEC and covers both low voltage and data wiring. I know of several municipalities that include those in their building codes.

 

[Platonic Solid]

Interesting idea. Do you know of any work being done in Standards Bodies that are looking into this?

Clearly the use of LEDs in this time of transition makes for some clumsy implementations involving multiple power conversions with some loss of efficiency. A central low voltage source, with a STAR topology probably would make the most sense with todays technology. The use of readily available wiring such as Cat 6 makes sense to me. The slightly larger conductors in Cat 6 also helps.

I do think I would make them SMART in some way, just because that is available even today with conversion type bulbs using either WiFi or Bluetooth. Don't need speed so 10BaseT could be multiplexed over current carrying conductors, or use four of the conductors as it does today.

As mentioned there will be huge push back, and would cause no end of turmoil in some of the trades, but progress usually does!

UL 294B applies: http://ulstandards.ul.com/standard/?id=294b

 

[Platonic Solid]

Here's an LED Magazine Article.

Also see #4 in this IES article of Cree's list of 5 key LED Luminaire specification consideration issues.

 

[Thumper68]

For our purposes the switch would control the 120VAC LED Driver. Driver output to Light Fixtures via PoE. No conduit required, no permit, no licensed electrician except for remote driver install (unless driver is provided as wall socket plug-in).

No, I'm researching the pros and cons of a technology possibility before doing anything.
Not 10 times as much when you figure in no permit, no electrician, ease of future driver replacement, ease of fixture installation...

Here in MN and many other states you need a PL (Power limited license) to run low voltage cable. And don't think that you won't need a permit, right now I only have to pull them for life safety jobs but if this became mainstream you can count on them requiring permits for this type of work, the city/county/state will not freely give up that money.

 

[justsam]

Here's an LED Magazine Article.

Also see #4 in this IES article of Cree's list of 5 key LED Luminaire specification consideration issues.

Thanks for posting these. Makes me realize I have been a bit of a luddite in keeping up with these technologies.

At one time I worked as a contributor in IEEE standards bodies and I know how difficult it is to get agreement on implementation since all fear their ox is getting gored.

 

[Platonic Solid]

Here in MN and many other states you need a PL (Power limited license) to run low voltage cable. And don't think that you won't need a permit, right now I only have to pull them for life safety jobs but if this became mainstream you can count on them requiring permits for this type of work, the city/county/state will not freely give up that money.

I concede, the "no permit" argument is weak and subject to change, but it's certainly not a deal breaker for this technology.

 

[Mustang51js]

They would just change the code to a lower voltage and then you would still need an electrician if this became popular. Whats going to happen to inspectors and money the towns make on permits.,they wont just let it go.

 

[Platonic Solid]

I hadn't considered the advantage LED lighting has with respect to solar power until reading the LED Magazine article posted above. New England isn't exactly the best place to harvest the Sun, but I'd consider a small system if it could just power the DC lighting.